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swimming mystery (Page 2)
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 2016-07-26 7:57 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Extreme Veteran  3025    Maryland |  Subject: RE: swimming mysteryOriginally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by Burchib Originally posted by mike761 At no point did you say you actually took the time to take lessons from a competent instructor and learned good form. Nor do you mention how many yards you swim in a week. There is no shortcut to these 2 items, you have to put in the time in both. If you stop for a while the worse your technique is the slower you will be when you start again. Your friend practices different than you do and probably learned to swim better than you did. He also may not be honest with you when he tells you he has not been swimming. I have heard a lot of people getting extra workouts in that they don't tell their friends about, probably just trying to be more competitive. To the OP: I am currently being coached by a college swim coach who has been very successful. I also watch videos, read, and practice, practice, practice technique. I FEEL EXACTLY LIKE YOU. I can be in an OWS in a wetsuit and swim 700 yards with less energy expended than without one in a pool swimming 150. I am 57 years old, and my goal is to be able to somehow, someday, swim a sprint triathlon of 1/4 to half mile without wearing a wetsuit. With a wetsuit, I can do the OWS portion of a sprint in 1:45/100. In the pool, it is right at 2:00, and a hard 2:00. My coach stresses technique, but at some point, it would be nice to see some gains in distance/endurance too. It has become frustrating to always hear: get lessons, work on technique, you are out of shape (no offense to anyone as I love how everyone on here is always willing to help) BUT, as you said, it is not the same as cycling or running. I have made huge gains in those areas over the last 2 years following some specific plans to increase speed and endurance. My legs are muscular, and they sink. I swim 4000 yards a week, which is not much, but I do the best I can with my schedule, and I can't get in the pool for an hour and just bang out 3000 yards. I am shot after 1200. I really have no point in all this except to say you are not alone!! 4000 yards per week is really hardly any swimming at all. I get that you have other obligations in life, etc......but you just can't expect much gain with that kind of yardage.....so give yourself a break and just enjoy it. Those people that you see swimming REALLY fast.....at some point in their lives 95% of them were in a program swimming 30,000 - 60,000 yards per week. (the other 5% aren't as fast as you think they are Your legs don't sink because they are muscular, btw.....they sink because you can't swim. I don't mean that in a mean spirited way.....you just need to understand what you are dealing with. You don't swim enough. ding ding ding |
) Seriously, you might as well just enjoy the time you get in the pool.| 2016-07-26 8:05 PM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
Coach 9167  Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: swimming mystery Originally posted by mchadcota2 Originally posted by mike761 At no point did you say you actually took the time to take lessons from a competent instructor and learned good form. Nor do you mention how many yards you swim in a week. There is no shortcut to these 2 items, you have to put in the time in both. If you stop for a while the worse your technique is the slower you will be when you start again. Your friend practices different than you do and probably learned to swim better than you did. He also may not be honest with you when he tells you he has not been swimming. I have heard a lot of people getting extra workouts in that they don't tell their friends about, probably just trying to be more competitive. You missed the point of my thread. Its not about why I suck. Its why other beginners or people who do not work at it at all can swim all day long and it doesn't make them tired. Why someone who has never had a lesson or competitive swim background can not swim for months, and go to the pool and hammer out 1500 meters at a 1:24 pace. there is a big difference between hammering out a 1500 in 22 minutes vs swimming the same distance without tiring. Since TI has been mentioned a few times, and Mark mentioned TI Balance drills, here is an old article by Terry Laughlin about endurance. Not sure if it will help you specifically, but in general people seem to be in a hurry to swim further and work hard to do so...but workign hard is the opposite of what's needed. Worth a read just for perspective and it also helps answer why someone without conditionong can hammer out a 1500m at 1:24...because there are a few tricks to swimming fast and long that are not purely fitness related. http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/cms/article-detail.asp?articleid=... |
| 2016-07-27 11:51 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
| 249 | Subject: RE: swimming mystery Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by Burchib Originally posted by mike761 At no point did you say you actually took the time to take lessons from a competent instructor and learned good form. Nor do you mention how many yards you swim in a week. There is no shortcut to these 2 items, you have to put in the time in both. If you stop for a while the worse your technique is the slower you will be when you start again. Your friend practices different than you do and probably learned to swim better than you did. He also may not be honest with you when he tells you he has not been swimming. I have heard a lot of people getting extra workouts in that they don't tell their friends about, probably just trying to be more competitive. To the OP: I am currently being coached by a college swim coach who has been very successful. I also watch videos, read, and practice, practice, practice technique. I FEEL EXACTLY LIKE YOU. I can be in an OWS in a wetsuit and swim 700 yards with less energy expended than without one in a pool swimming 150. I am 57 years old, and my goal is to be able to somehow, someday, swim a sprint triathlon of 1/4 to half mile without wearing a wetsuit. With a wetsuit, I can do the OWS portion of a sprint in 1:45/100. In the pool, it is right at 2:00, and a hard 2:00. My coach stresses technique, but at some point, it would be nice to see some gains in distance/endurance too. It has become frustrating to always hear: get lessons, work on technique, you are out of shape (no offense to anyone as I love how everyone on here is always willing to help) BUT, as you said, it is not the same as cycling or running. I have made huge gains in those areas over the last 2 years following some specific plans to increase speed and endurance. My legs are muscular, and they sink. I swim 4000 yards a week, which is not much, but I do the best I can with my schedule, and I can't get in the pool for an hour and just bang out 3000 yards. I am shot after 1200. I really have no point in all this except to say you are not alone!! 4000 yards per week is really hardly any swimming at all. I get that you have other obligations in life, etc......but you just can't expect much gain with that kind of yardage.....so give yourself a break and just enjoy it. Those people that you see swimming REALLY fast.....at some point in their lives 95% of them were in a program swimming 30,000 - 60,000 yards per week. (the other 5% aren't as fast as you think they are Your legs don't sink because they are muscular, btw.....they sink because you can't swim. I don't mean that in a mean spirited way.....you just need to understand what you are dealing with. You don't swim enough. Thanks. No offense taken. I appreciate your honest feedback. Right now, I just do the workouts my coach gives me. I do want to increase volume, and feel I will be able to do that this winter. I don't want to steer away from the OP concerns here, but let's say a person wants to swim a half mile in a sprint triathlon effectively, not crazy fast, or slow, but somewhere in the middle. For those of you who do this, how much volume are you doing in a week's practice? |
| 2016-07-27 1:19 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Veteran 327 | Subject: RE: swimming mystery Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by Burchib Originally posted by mike761 At no point did you say you actually took the time to take lessons from a competent instructor and learned good form. Nor do you mention how many yards you swim in a week. There is no shortcut to these 2 items, you have to put in the time in both. If you stop for a while the worse your technique is the slower you will be when you start again. Your friend practices different than you do and probably learned to swim better than you did. He also may not be honest with you when he tells you he has not been swimming. I have heard a lot of people getting extra workouts in that they don't tell their friends about, probably just trying to be more competitive. To the OP: I am currently being coached by a college swim coach who has been very successful. I also watch videos, read, and practice, practice, practice technique. I FEEL EXACTLY LIKE YOU. I can be in an OWS in a wetsuit and swim 700 yards with less energy expended than without one in a pool swimming 150. I am 57 years old, and my goal is to be able to somehow, someday, swim a sprint triathlon of 1/4 to half mile without wearing a wetsuit. With a wetsuit, I can do the OWS portion of a sprint in 1:45/100. In the pool, it is right at 2:00, and a hard 2:00. My coach stresses technique, but at some point, it would be nice to see some gains in distance/endurance too. It has become frustrating to always hear: get lessons, work on technique, you are out of shape (no offense to anyone as I love how everyone on here is always willing to help) BUT, as you said, it is not the same as cycling or running. I have made huge gains in those areas over the last 2 years following some specific plans to increase speed and endurance. My legs are muscular, and they sink. I swim 4000 yards a week, which is not much, but I do the best I can with my schedule, and I can't get in the pool for an hour and just bang out 3000 yards. I am shot after 1200. I really have no point in all this except to say you are not alone!! 4000 yards per week is really hardly any swimming at all. I get that you have other obligations in life, etc......but you just can't expect much gain with that kind of yardage.....so give yourself a break and just enjoy it. Those people that you see swimming REALLY fast.....at some point in their lives 95% of them were in a program swimming 30,000 - 60,000 yards per week. (the other 5% aren't as fast as you think they are Your legs don't sink because they are muscular, btw.....they sink because you can't swim. I don't mean that in a mean spirited way.....you just need to understand what you are dealing with. You don't swim enough. I love this advice. I come from a completely different background but understand your struggle. I grew up a fish and swam enough from childhood to college that the black line on the bottom of a pool is enough to make me want to check into a mental hospital. I have always come out of the water in the tops of my AG in events and honestly I devote very little time to swimming compared to the other disciplines. However, I have always been an average biker and a slow runner from day 1. Essentially, I am a moving speed bump for all of the really fast guys after the swim. My best marathon in an IM event was 5 hours and I was thrilled with this time. I have been running consistently for about 5 years with mileage in the 20-35 range per week and my marathon pace is still an 8:30-9:00 mile. I had to learn a long time ago that my running was always going to be a weakness. It doesn't mean I stopped trying to get faster, it just meant that I enjoyed the process a lot more. I will never make any money doing this (actually I spend a lot of money to do this) so I decide I am just going to enjoy the journey, celebrate the accomplishments when they come, and not worry about what I can't control. Take some of the pressure off of yourself, enjoy the training you are doing, and celebrate the accomplishments. There is always someone faster than you and only comparing yourself to those people will make the sport a lot less fun. |
| 2016-07-27 1:38 PM in reply to: Burchib |
| 216 | Subject: RE: swimming mystery Originally posted by Burchib let's say a person wants to swim a half mile in a sprint triathlon effectively, not crazy fast, or slow, but somewhere in the middle. For those of you who do this, how much volume are you doing in a week's practice? I depends where you start. If you're mid-pack, and just want to maintain, you can probably do it with a couple 2000 yard workouts a week. If you're in the bottom quarter, and want to get to MOP, it's gonna take more than that. To meaningfully improve, I think you need to do at least 2 x race distance at race pace 3 times a week. That would be three mile-long sets a week. Obviously you can't do your half mile race pace for a mile straight, so you brake it up into interval work. You could do 18x100, 12x150, 9x200, etc on shortish rest. On top of that, you need a little warm up, cool down, plus maybe one more short set of drill work or sprint work. So that's somewhere around 7500 - 8500 yards a week. |
| 2016-07-28 7:08 AM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: swimming mystery Originally posted by mchadcota2 Originally posted by mike761 At no point did you say you actually took the time to take lessons from a competent instructor and learned good form. Nor do you mention how many yards you swim in a week. There is no shortcut to these 2 items, you have to put in the time in both. If you stop for a while the worse your technique is the slower you will be when you start again. Your friend practices different than you do and probably learned to swim better than you did. He also may not be honest with you when he tells you he has not been swimming. I have heard a lot of people getting extra workouts in that they don't tell their friends about, probably just trying to be more competitive. You missed the point of my thread. Its not about why I suck. Its why other beginners or people who do not work at it at all can swim all day long and it doesn't make them tired. Why someone who has never had a lesson or competitive swim background can not swim for months, and go to the pool and hammer out 1500 meters at a 1:24 pace. I did not miss your point, let me say it this way> I call BUll@@$%$% on your friend. He did not take 7 months off of swimming and jump in the pool to swim 1500 meters at a 1:25 pace. He is either lying about not swimming or lying about his 1500m swim time, maybe both. |
| 2016-07-28 9:15 AM in reply to: mike761 |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: swimming mystery Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by mchadcota2 Originally posted by mike761 At no point did you say you actually took the time to take lessons from a competent instructor and learned good form. Nor do you mention how many yards you swim in a week. There is no shortcut to these 2 items, you have to put in the time in both. If you stop for a while the worse your technique is the slower you will be when you start again. Your friend practices different than you do and probably learned to swim better than you did. He also may not be honest with you when he tells you he has not been swimming. I have heard a lot of people getting extra workouts in that they don't tell their friends about, probably just trying to be more competitive. You missed the point of my thread. Its not about why I suck. Its why other beginners or people who do not work at it at all can swim all day long and it doesn't make them tired. Why someone who has never had a lesson or competitive swim background can not swim for months, and go to the pool and hammer out 1500 meters at a 1:24 pace. I did not miss your point, let me say it this way> I call BUll@@$%$% on your friend. He did not take 7 months off of swimming and jump in the pool to swim 1500 meters at a 1:25 pace. He is either lying about not swimming or lying about his 1500m swim time, maybe both. I second the BS call, but it doesn't sound like it was on purpose. Sounds like the dude went to a neighborhood pool, which was probably less than 25 yds long, but who knows (I know the one's around me are around 20) and someone mistakenly told him it was 25 meters. So he swam somewhere between 1,200-1,500 yards in 22 minutes. Still pretty darn good for not training, but not out of the realm of possibility. |
| 2016-07-28 11:43 AM in reply to: 3mar |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: swimming mystery Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by mchadcota2 Originally posted by mike761 At no point did you say you actually took the time to take lessons from a competent instructor and learned good form. Nor do you mention how many yards you swim in a week. There is no shortcut to these 2 items, you have to put in the time in both. If you stop for a while the worse your technique is the slower you will be when you start again. Your friend practices different than you do and probably learned to swim better than you did. He also may not be honest with you when he tells you he has not been swimming. I have heard a lot of people getting extra workouts in that they don't tell their friends about, probably just trying to be more competitive. You missed the point of my thread. Its not about why I suck. Its why other beginners or people who do not work at it at all can swim all day long and it doesn't make them tired. Why someone who has never had a lesson or competitive swim background can not swim for months, and go to the pool and hammer out 1500 meters at a 1:24 pace. I did not miss your point, let me say it this way> I call BUll@@$%$% on your friend. He did not take 7 months off of swimming and jump in the pool to swim 1500 meters at a 1:25 pace. He is either lying about not swimming or lying about his 1500m swim time, maybe both. I second the BS call, but it doesn't sound like it was on purpose. Sounds like the dude went to a neighborhood pool, which was probably less than 25 yds long, but who knows (I know the one's around me are around 20) and someone mistakenly told him it was 25 meters. So he swam somewhere between 1,200-1,500 yards in 22 minutes. Still pretty darn good for not training, but not out of the realm of possibility. even 22 with no practice in 7 months I don't believe, if he was an ex-swimmer that was doing huge volumes much faster before he stopped then yes. So if it was 22 minutes, it was most like yards (maybe less than 25) and he miscounted and did 56 laps instead of 60(which is not hard to do). |
| 2016-07-28 1:14 PM in reply to: gary p |
| 249 | Subject: RE: swimming mystery Originally posted by gary p Originally posted by Burchib let's say a person wants to swim a half mile in a sprint triathlon effectively, not crazy fast, or slow, but somewhere in the middle. For those of you who do this, how much volume are you doing in a week's practice? I depends where you start. If you're mid-pack, and just want to maintain, you can probably do it with a couple 2000 yard workouts a week. If you're in the bottom quarter, and want to get to MOP, it's gonna take more than that. To meaningfully improve, I think you need to do at least 2 x race distance at race pace 3 times a week. That would be three mile-long sets a week. Obviously you can't do your half mile race pace for a mile straight, so you brake it up into interval work. You could do 18x100, 12x150, 9x200, etc on shortish rest. On top of that, you need a little warm up, cool down, plus maybe one more short set of drill work or sprint work. So that's somewhere around 7500 - 8500 yards a week. Thanks for your reply! Makes sense. Looks like lots of pool time this winter  |
| 2016-07-28 3:39 PM in reply to: #5192464 |
| 439 nashville, Tennessee | Subject: RE: swimming mystery Yeah I have come to realize that something was not right. Although the only way I believed him was that that he sent me a pic of his garmin that said 1500 m and 1:24 pace. So it must have been a short pool. |
| 2016-07-28 4:57 PM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: swimming mystery Originally posted by mchadcota2Yeah I have come to realize that something was not right. Although the only way I believed him was that that he sent me a pic of his garmin that said 1500 m and 1:24 pace. So it must have been a short pool. He probably got it from a walk he did. |
| 2016-07-29 7:24 AM in reply to: #5193091 |
| 439 nashville, Tennessee | Subject: RE: swimming mystery Haha!! Did t think about that. Got me good |
| 2016-07-29 8:21 AM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: swimming mystery Originally posted by mchadcota2 The problem with slowing down is, when I go slow, my form falls apart. I have to maintain a certain speed or my legs and hips will sink. Its a conundrum. That's a huge clue right there. Swimming slow enough to virtually eliminate the lift generated by forward motion can be a good way to evaluate your balance. If everything breaks down, and your hips and legs sink, it can be an indication that you have poor balance. Just speculating without having seen you swim, the first things I'd look at are your head position and how flat or steep the angle of your entry is. Frequently, dropping your head a little deeper into the water with a relaxed neck combined with a steeper, wider entry to a deeper, wider catch (imagine you're sliding ypur hands out over the curved hood of a Volkswagen Beetle towards the headlights) will go a long ways towards fixing sinking hips and legs. |
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