General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Using equipment to make intervals in Masters workouts Rss Feed  
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2016-07-27 10:53 AM


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Subject: Using equipment to make intervals in Masters workouts
Curious as to your opinions. I swim on a Masters team where swimmers are encouraged to use equipment (fins, pull buoys, paddles) for the entire workout, not just specific kicking or pulling sets. Hence, many do swim much faster than without the equipment and are able to swim in faster lanes. They, in essence, become dependent on the equipment to swim at a certain speed. I do not use equipment. Today I was swimming in a lane with three other people who were all using equipment. I am faster than all of them when they are not wearing equipment, but slower when they are wearing equipment. The coach did not give a warm up set and started us off on an 1800 meter ladder on a very hard base. I was not warmed up and did not make the interval. I have made the interval when warmed up in the past. I was upset that the coach did not change the interval as the only reason the others made the interval was the equipment. Thoughts? I am not particularly fond of this coach, by the way.


2016-07-27 11:09 AM
in reply to: onefinwonder

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Subject: RE: Using equipment to make intervals in Masters workouts
Sounds like this isn't a very good match for you. You don't like the coach, and don't care for using equipment all the time. And no warm up?! Time to shop for another Master's team.
2016-07-27 11:20 AM
in reply to: #5192850


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Subject: RE: Using equipment to make intervals in Masters workouts
Thank you. A difficult situation as pool is walking distance and coaches are rotated. Most coaches are outstanding. You are right, though, there are many other teams in the area that do not allow swimmers to become dependent on equipment.
2016-07-27 11:33 AM
in reply to: onefinwonder

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Subject: RE: Using equipment to make intervals in Masters workouts
Check out Brett Sutton's thoughts on the use of pool "equipment" in training. I'm pretty sure he agrees with your coaches.
2016-07-27 11:43 AM
in reply to: onefinwonder

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Subject: RE: Using equipment to make intervals in Masters workouts

Pool toys have their purpose, but using them as you describe is pointless, because it's more likely to ingrain poor habits, and less likely to reinforce good ones.  The end result is slower swimming relative to what could have been achieved with a smarter use of training time.

You said coaches are rotated, so I'd consider only swimming with the group when the better coaches are running the session, and avoiding it when the one you describe is there, even if it means doing solo sessions sometimes.

 

2016-07-27 11:54 AM
in reply to: nc452010


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Subject: RE: Using equipment to make intervals in Masters workouts
Originally posted by nc452010

Check out Brett Sutton's thoughts on the use of pool "equipment" in training. I'm pretty sure he agrees with your coaches.


Is Sutton's view on that ALL pool equipment or just the pull buoy? I know Joel Filliol mentions dropping warm up and cool down if you're short on time.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to be coached by Sutton. For a sport that is a hobby and I do for enjoyment, I think he would be over the top for me.


2016-07-27 12:15 PM
in reply to: TriTampa2

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Subject: RE: Using equipment to make intervals in Masters workouts
Originally posted by TriTampa2

Originally posted by nc452010

Check out Brett Sutton's thoughts on the use of pool "equipment" in training. I'm pretty sure he agrees with your coaches.


Is Sutton's view on that ALL pool equipment or just the pull buoy? I know Joel Filliol mentions dropping warm up and cool down if you're short on time.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to be coached by Sutton. For a sport that is a hobby and I do for enjoyment, I think he would be over the top for me.


Not sure (haven't read the article in a while). I'd put his knowledge of the sport up against most coaches, though.

We have a few triathletes in our masters group who scoff at sets with the PB....wouldn't think of using zoomers in a kick set.....etc.... There's even a couple who think they swim better sans a wetsuit (in wetsuit legal events).

Nothing really surprises me, anymore.
2016-07-27 12:51 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Using equipment to make intervals in Masters workouts

I don't really have a problem using equipment. I don't use it for all of my workouts, but if I want to join a faster lane, I don't mind using the equipment (usually fins). I don't train in the pool that much, but I do train on the bike a lot. Some workouts on both the track and the road, I do motorpacing, so I ride behind a motorbike. This allows me to go faster than I could on my own. I haven't become dependent on anything yet, that I know of, but I think it has made me faster.

I'm not really sure why it matters if others are using equipment, but I sympathize with not being able to make the interval when you are swimming in the way you want. Is there not another lane you can drop down into?

ETA: I will not look at anything from Brett Sutton.



Edited by jeng 2016-07-27 12:55 PM
2016-07-27 1:22 PM
in reply to: jeng


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Subject: RE: Using equipment to make intervals in Masters workouts
Originally posted by jeng

I don't really have a problem using equipment. I don't use it for all of my workouts, but if I want to join a faster lane, I don't mind using the equipment (usually fins). I don't train in the pool that much, but I do train on the bike a lot. Some workouts on both the track and the road, I do motorpacing, so I ride behind a motorbike. This allows me to go faster than I could on my own. I haven't become dependent on anything yet, that I know of, but I think it has made me faster.

I'm not really sure why it matters if others are using equipment, but I sympathize with not being able to make the interval when you are swimming in the way you want. Is there not another lane you can drop down into?

ETA: I will not look at anything from Brett Sutton.




I don't have a problem with using equipment. I use it throughout my workouts but certainly not for every workout. I started following a lot of swim smooth stuff and they make use of a lot of equipment but mostly for different types of drill work. I think using some equipment at least occasionally can make things more interesting and fun. If equipment use makes swimming more fun for somebody I say go for it. I do think it's a little odd for masters swim to ALWAYS use equipment for ALL workouts.
2016-07-27 1:28 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Using equipment to make intervals in Masters workouts

Don't go to that coach's workout

No credible coach would encourage swimming with a PB, fins and paddles all of the time.  Even sutto

We have a guy that insists on swimming in the middle lane at masters, who could not keep up if he didn't stand up 5 feet from every wall and turn.   Coach doesn't seem to care, so whatever, but it's not doing the guy any favors



Edited by ChrisM 2016-07-27 1:32 PM
2016-07-27 2:08 PM
in reply to: onefinwonder

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Subject: RE: Using equipment to make intervals in Masters workouts

Our coach specifies when he wants us to use equipment on our daily workout sheets.  Typically for drills, such as paddles & pull buoys for pull sets.  Or such as using fins on long fly or IM sets to help you maintain good form..

I will also use my snorkel a lot, both for kick sets so I can maintain a good body alignment, and for pull sets to help me work on keeping my pull symmetrical (I used to have a bad habit of crossing over with the arm on my non-breathing side).  Using the snorkel I can concentrate on stroke technique and not have to worry about breathing, i.e., survival.  

Some of our slower folks, beginners and fitness swimmers will use fins, paddles and snorkels more often, but it's more to just help them make the interval distances more comfortably.

I've never used any "toys" to help me make an interval or swim in a faster lane, but there are some folks in our masters group that do.  In particular, we have a woman in her mid-60's who will sometimes use paddles to keep up with the studs in the fast lane when swimming freestyle..  But she's also a 25 time USMS All-American with 29 USMS records (mostly in breaststroke), so she's got the cred and nobody gives her any grief about it.

As far as the situation with your coach, I'd suggest you discuss the things directly with him/her off the deck.  We recently got a new coach for our Masters group and had a period of "adjustment" until we talked through things and agreed on our mutual objectives.  I got into it with him in the middle of practice one day.  I regret doing that, but fortunately we were able to work things out after practice.  Things have been a lot better since we aired things out.

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

 



2016-07-27 2:25 PM
in reply to: #5192850


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Subject: RE: Using equipment to make intervals in Masters workouts
Equipment certainly helps add variety and has its purpose. However, my point is that my fellow swimmers are dependent on equipment to swim certain speeds and if no one is able to swim fast enough to make the interval without equipment, then the interval needs to be changed. Also, one of the other swimmers expects the intervals to be changed for him, yet he will not change them for anyone else.
2016-07-27 2:36 PM
in reply to: onefinwonder

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Subject: RE: Using equipment to make intervals in Masters workouts

Originally posted by onefinwonder Equipment certainly helps add variety and has its purpose. However, my point is that my fellow swimmers are dependent on equipment to swim certain speeds and if no one is able to swim fast enough to make the interval without equipment, then the interval needs to be changed. Also, one of the other swimmers expects the intervals to be changed for him, yet he will not change them for anyone else.

Yeah, it's kind of silly to say "this is the 1:XX lane" when people cannot make the interval without fins and paddles. 

2016-07-27 3:24 PM
in reply to: onefinwonder

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Subject: RE: Using equipment to make intervals in Masters workouts

Originally posted by onefinwonder Equipment certainly helps add variety and has its purpose. However, my point is that my fellow swimmers are dependent on equipment to swim certain speeds and if no one is able to swim fast enough to make the interval without equipment, then the interval needs to be changed. Also, one of the other swimmers expects the intervals to be changed for him, yet he will not change them for anyone else.

Our fast lane folks take things pretty seriously and normally swim the workout exactly as written.  If someone can keep up by using toys, then OK, bu if they start screwing things up they'll be TOLD  in no uncertain terms by the other swimmers to go to another lane or go home.  Pretty much self-policing.    

Sometimes folks will adjust their intervals, but are usually pretty good about spacing themselves out to avoid conflicts.  Somewhat counter-intuitively, we seem to have more issues on long course days, maybe because there's more time for speed differentials to manifest themselves.       

If the "culture" of your group is to use toys and change intervals randomly, then that might be hard to overcome.  Ideally stuff like that should be handled by the coach.  Again, you should speak with the coach about your concerns.  Depending on their response, then you can decide if the group is a good fit for you.  Or it could come down to put-up or shut-up, and just deal with things the way they are.  

Mark

2016-07-27 3:35 PM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Subject: RE: Using equipment to make intervals in Masters workouts

I just don't see why the equipment matters? Like if it is 1:XX lane, who cares how they do it. If you want to swim the interval on 1:YY, then why not go in the lane for that? My masters club does have 6 lanes though, so it sucks if there are more speeds than they can accommodate.

2016-07-27 3:38 PM
in reply to: onefinwonder

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Subject: RE: Using equipment to make intervals in Masters workouts

Originally posted by onefinwonder Equipment certainly helps add variety and has its purpose. However, my point is that my fellow swimmers are dependent on equipment to swim certain speeds and if no one is able to swim fast enough to make the interval without equipment, then the interval needs to be changed. Also, one of the other swimmers expects the intervals to be changed for him, yet he will not change them for anyone else.

He sounds fun !



2016-07-27 4:37 PM
in reply to: onefinwonder

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Subject: RE: Using equipment to make intervals in Masters workouts
Sometimes my masters coach will give me a different interval or shorten my distance for the same interval and sometimes he'll suggest that I put on fins to make the interval.

There are folks who swim in my masters with fins all the time. It is what it is.

I can't really say why your coach did what he did.

2016-07-27 4:48 PM
in reply to: miamiamy

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Subject: RE: Using equipment to make intervals in Masters workouts

Every tool in the pool has a purpose.....from pull buoy to parachutes....but in the hands of a coach who doesn't know their specific benefit and where to place them in a workout they are about as useless as a gun in the hands of a blind man.

2016-07-27 5:46 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Using equipment to make intervals in Masters workouts

Originally posted by jeng

I just don't see why the equipment matters? Like if it is 1:XX lane, who cares how they do it. If you want to swim the interval on 1:YY, then why not go in the lane for that? My masters club does have 6 lanes though, so it sucks if there are more speeds than they can accommodate.

I think it matters for a coached workout because the coach is not giving the swimmers proper advice.   But I guess not everyone wants to learn to swim properly or better or faster.  I certainly wouldn't attend this coach's workouts.   

Open swim lanes?  Have t it, do what you want.

Just my opinion though, don't expect everyone to agree  



Edited by ChrisM 2016-07-27 5:47 PM
2016-07-27 6:40 PM
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Subject: RE: Using equipment to make intervals in Masters workouts

Yeah, I guess. I trust my coach and don't really worry about everyone else. I still say Meh. You are right though. We don't all have to agree.  

ETA: smilie!



Edited by jeng 2016-07-27 6:41 PM
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