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2016-08-18 7:27 AM

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Subject: Power questions
If there is a source I should go to (to do my own research), feel free to point me in that direction.

1. What are the advantages/disadvantages of using 3 sec., 5 sec. 30 sec. (other?) power readings?

2. Let's say I'm going to try to do a 20' test, next week. Can someone point me to a method that is widely accepted? I don't know exactly when to start the test......which data to track (see Q # 1), etc...

3. Let's say I've accomplished step 2 and determined my FTP is 215. My goal is to ride my HIM bike leg at (____%) of FTP. The numbers are ridiculously low (eye opener) when I am descending and pretty darned high (higher than I would have expected) when I climb. I have set a data field to track % of FTP. I'm using the default setting for FTP right now, so the actual # (in my head) doesn't matter, currently. But, let's assume 215 is correct and 172 = 80% of that (we don't have to assume that part! ). How do you manage hills? Do you allow yourself a certain margin for a certain amount of time (to go over that)? What have YOU done, in this scenario?

4. What would have to be present in a bike course/race for you to abandon power and use HR?

This will probably spark more Q's!

Thanks


2016-08-18 8:17 AM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: Power questions

I can comment on 1 and 2:

1)  Those different power readings create your "power curve" - a distribution that gives you some idea about your different types of fitness related to cycling, and can also give you some insight into your strengths and weaknesses should you want to explore cycling as a discipline.  I would say in general the quicker intervals don't mean much to triathletes.  And unless you've done some intervals specifically designed to max-out those shorter intervals, I doubt they're accurate for you anyway.

2)  The Trainer Road 20' test protocol has you do 20' WU with three 1' intervals at and above threshold spaced at 10-15' marks, then a 5' test, then a 5' rest, then 20' all-out, and then cool down.  It HURTS.

2016-08-18 8:28 AM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: Power questions

This is a start for you:  http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2008/05/the-seven-deadly-sins.html

If the goal is to average x watts for a race, I would expect to be very close to x on most sections.  But steep hills I would expect to be a little over x (but preferably still below FTP unless very short & steep).  On downhills, I would coast once I hit maybe mid-high 30s mph.

I would never abandon power and use HR.  However, I may abandon power (or HR) and use RPE.

2016-08-18 10:31 AM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: Power questions

Originally posted by nc452010 If there is a source I should go to (to do my own research), feel free to point me in that direction. 1. What are the advantages/disadvantages of using 3 sec., 5 sec. 30 sec. (other?) power readings? 2. Let's say I'm going to try to do a 20' test, next week. Can someone point me to a method that is widely accepted? I don't know exactly when to start the test......which data to track (see Q # 1), etc... 3. Let's say I've accomplished step 2 and determined my FTP is 215. My goal is to ride my HIM bike leg at (____%) of FTP. The numbers are ridiculously low (eye opener) when I am descending and pretty darned high (higher than I would have expected) when I climb. I have set a data field to track % of FTP. I'm using the default setting for FTP right now, so the actual # (in my head) doesn't matter, currently. But, let's assume 215 is correct and 172 = 80% of that (we don't have to assume that part! ). How do you manage hills? Do you allow yourself a certain margin for a certain amount of time (to go over that)? What have YOU done, in this scenario? 4. What would have to be present in a bike course/race for you to abandon power and use HR? This will probably spark more Q's! Thanks
On #1 its a smoothing function, I use 3 sec on the trainer (VP).  If doing a long steady WO longer averaging provides a less jittery readout.  If doing short intervals the shorter averaging is more useful (IMHO), to a point.  If your cadence is 80 that's one every 0.75 sec, 3 sec avg gives you 4 per average period.

#2 See this (http://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-us/articles/201794984-20-Minute-vs-8-Minute-FTP-Test) for an example of the typical 20' test.  About the dual 8' test, I don't know anyone that's done it.

There's also Critical Power which I like because its based on two (or more) tests intervals and not a % of a single test.  It can be interesting to see the changes in the two tests over a training cycle.  BT has a calculator here with the test descriptions: http://beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/training/cycling-zone-calc.asp

#3 & 4 were covered above by others with more experience!

2016-08-18 10:54 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Power questions

Originally posted by jmhpsu93

I can comment on 1 and 2:

1)  Those different power readings create your "power curve" - a distribution that gives you some idea about your different types of fitness related to cycling, and can also give you some insight into your strengths and weaknesses should you want to explore cycling as a discipline.  I would say in general the quicker intervals don't mean much to triathletes.  And unless you've done some intervals specifically designed to max-out those shorter intervals, I doubt they're accurate for you anyway.

2)  The Trainer Road 20' test protocol has you do 20' WU with three 1' intervals at and above threshold spaced at 10-15' marks, then a 5' test, then a 5' rest, then 20' all-out, and then cool down.  It HURTS.

 

I read OP's #1 question to be about the head unit readout, not the power curve, although that may be the question which you answered.   If the former, it's really just a question of smoothing out the display so it does not jump around erratically, the longer intervals will be smoother.

#2, not sure there is a consensus (in fact confident there is not).   Some say only 1 hour outside is accurate.  Others use 20' with a 5' blowout.   Others use 20' one day and 5' a few days later.   Whichever you choose, be consistent so you can track it.   Anything short of an hour is an estimate anyway so mathematical precision isn't necessarily required. 

#3 the "conventional wisdom" is to smooth out the entire ride so your Variability Index (VI, by dividing normalized power by average power) so that the VI is close to 1.0.  Flat course should be about 1.0.   On a hilly course my VI can be 1.10 or more.   Theoretically a high VI can have some effects later on the run.  

#4 Unless race was super hot or hard and everything has fallen apart, I'd never completely abandon power, but I'd use it in conjunction with HR.  I.e. I wouldn't keep trying to hit power numbers at a HR that I know I couldn't sustain



Edited by ChrisM 2016-08-18 10:56 AM
2016-08-18 11:17 AM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Subject: RE: Power questions
You guys are awesome.

Thank you.


2016-08-18 1:29 PM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Subject: RE: Power questions

Originally posted by ChrisM

 

I read OP's #1 question to be about the head unit readout, not the power curve, although that may be the question which you answered. 

Re-reading it, I agree.  Oops. 

2016-08-18 1:55 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Power questions

Originally posted by jmhpsu93

Originally posted by ChrisM

 

I read OP's #1 question to be about the head unit readout, not the power curve, although that may be the question which you answered. 

Re-reading it, I agree.  Oops. 

Actually, from a training standpoint, I think your question is also an important one, when addressing what to do with all this info?



Edited by ChrisM 2016-08-18 1:59 PM
2016-08-19 7:37 PM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: Power questions
Originally posted by nc452010

If there is a source I should go to (to do my own research), feel free to point me in that direction.

1. What are the advantages/disadvantages of using 3 sec., 5 sec. 30 sec. (other?) power readings?

2. Let's say I'm going to try to do a 20' test, next week. Can someone point me to a method that is widely accepted? I don't know exactly when to start the test......which data to track (see Q # 1), etc...

3. Let's say I've accomplished step 2 and determined my FTP is 215. My goal is to ride my HIM bike leg at (____%) of FTP. The numbers are ridiculously low (eye opener) when I am descending and pretty darned high (higher than I would have expected) when I climb. I have set a data field to track % of FTP. I'm using the default setting for FTP right now, so the actual # (in my head) doesn't matter, currently. But, let's assume 215 is correct and 172 = 80% of that (we don't have to assume that part! ). How do you manage hills? Do you allow yourself a certain margin for a certain amount of time (to go over that)? What have YOU done, in this scenario?

4. What would have to be present in a bike course/race for you to abandon power and use HR?

This will probably spark more Q's!

Thanks


Congrats on the power meter, will change the way you train! Make sure you also track your weight in whatever system you are using to analyze data as watts / kilo is a key metric to track. 200 watts at 200 pounds is way different then 200 watts at 175 pounds.

To answer your questions (and these are my thoughts, I'm sure there are many!)

1) if you are talking about the reading on your head unit, usually 10 seconds is fine. If you do instant or 3 seconds, you'll see power is extremely sensitive. Hit a small pot hole and your power will change a lot. So keeping it at 10 seconds it averages it and smooths it out a bit more during your ride. Makes it easier to read.

2) many different options. I like having athletes do a 1 minute leg opener, 5 min blow and then a 20 minute all out ride. Then take 95% of that last 20 minutes to figure FTP.

3) Look at average power or normalized power (I prefer NP) during a race. It smooths it out based on the ups and downs. But, really you should be consistent during the race. From your power tests you should know what your max 30 sec, 1, 3, 5 & 8 minute amounts are. That way, since you'll know your max you'll NEVER want to go above those, or close to them, in a HIM. Or, your legs will be blown for the run.

4). Unless my power meter crashes, catches fire, gives me the middle finger and no longer works, I'll never abandon it and favor HR in a race.

Hope that helps!
2016-08-19 10:19 PM
in reply to: #5195647

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Subject: RE: Power questions
Good resources: joe friels training with power (intro) and training and racing with a powere meter (coffin and Allen). Also phils skibas power book.
2016-08-20 7:24 AM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: Power questions

Originally posted by AdventureBear Good resources: joe friels training with power (intro) and training and racing with a powere meter (coffin and Allen). Also phils skibas power book.

*Coggan. Know it was an autocorrect, but not sure someone who doesn't already know the name would get it. 



2016-08-20 8:09 AM
in reply to: #5195914

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Subject: RE: Power questions
Coggan would probably not appreciate it either! Thanks
2016-08-20 1:31 PM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: Power questions
In a Monty Pytbon-esque voice-over.... "I'm not quite dead yet".


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