General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Why faster on short swim sets? Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
 
 
of 2
 
 
2016-12-10 7:49 AM

User image


61
2525
Subject: Why faster on short swim sets?
I usually swim 10 lengths of a 25m pool in a set.
When I swim continuously, I average 2:30/100m
The other day I swam 50s and 25s with 10-15sec rest in between and averaged 2:10/100m
Given that rest improves speed this way, am I to understand that strength is the issue or is it deterioration of technique when I don't rest?


2016-12-10 8:47 AM
in reply to: aribloch

User image

Master
8247
50002000100010010025
Eugene, Oregon
Bronze member
Subject: RE: Why faster on short swim sets?
At those speeds, definitely the latter. If you are averaging 2:30/100m for 250m, there is something pretty seriously wrong with your technique. You would no doubt benefit from getting some help with your technique, and swimming shorter repeats with more rest to practice better form. Swimming (at least for the distances in triathlons), isn't really strength-based. Look at the pros--You get some very lean guys and petite women kicking butt--they have good technique and train well; they're not relying on muscle bulk/strength.
2016-12-10 8:50 AM
in reply to: Hot Runner

User image


61
2525
Subject: RE: Why faster on short swim sets?

So in short what you are saying is that my "good speed" is due to "brute force" and not technique. That is to say, the technique is equally bad when I am fresh, it is just that the force compensates for it (and then quickly diminishes as I tire relatively).
2016-12-10 8:56 AM
in reply to: aribloch

User image

Master
8247
50002000100010010025
Eugene, Oregon
Bronze member
Subject: RE: Why faster on short swim sets?
Not necessarily, though it's possible. It's just that your technique isn't efficient, so you can't hold the speed that you do for very long. Most people's technique is a bit better when they are fresher, but at over 2 minutes per 100m, it's probably not great even then. In a swim that's lasting less than 10 minutes at 2+ minutes per 100m, it's not a strength or endurance issue, unless you are also struggling to run, bike, or even walk for that long.
2016-12-10 8:59 AM
in reply to: Hot Runner

User image


61
2525
Subject: RE: Why faster on short swim sets?

OK so going with that thought, is there anything to be gained by sticking to short sets (say I could hold 2:00/100 at single lengths) and then increasing distance?
2016-12-10 9:37 AM
in reply to: aribloch

Master
10208
50005000100100
Northern IL
Subject: RE: Why faster on short swim sets?

Or do more than 10 of them. A lot more.



2016-12-10 9:47 AM
in reply to: brigby1

User image


61
2525
Subject: RE: Why faster on short swim sets?
Originally posted by brigby1

Or do more than 10 of them. A lot more.




Indeed
It's just that I do say 10, then rest, then 10, etc etc
(that is, 10 being with few sec rest in between lengths)
2016-12-12 10:59 AM
in reply to: aribloch

User image


1300
1000100100100
Subject: RE: Why faster on short swim sets?

Has your stroke changed any since you posted a video last year ?  At the paces you are swimming a years a long time to go without any gains.  Have you worked on anything with your catch for starters ?  If you have just been doing the same thing for the last twelve months I'd say go back and read the suggestions in those threads.  There were some good tips in there.

If you have been working on it I'd see if you can get someone to record you again so we can take a look at what's going on. 

2016-12-20 10:22 PM
in reply to: Goggles Pizzano

User image


61
2525
Subject: RE: Why faster on short swim sets?
Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano

Has your stroke changed any since you posted a video last year ?  At the paces you are swimming a years a long time to go without any gains.  Have you worked on anything with your catch for starters ?  If you have just been doing the same thing for the last twelve months I'd say go back and read the suggestions in those threads.  There were some good tips in there.

If you have been working on it I'd see if you can get someone to record you again so we can take a look at what's going on. 




Don't know if it has changed, perhaps, I need to shoot a new video. But no, I have not been swimming continuously throughout the year because of several factors so it's not like I have a year of solid training under the belt.

In the past few workouts I have been sticking to swimming sets of single lengths with either 10-30 seconds rest in between and with that I am able to maintain a 2:00 average. Here is an example of such a workout:

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1489856068

By the way, I don't know why, but the pace and strokes both show zero (when the mouse is over them) even though the graph is correct. Any idea why that might be? My watch is 910XT and I hit lap at the end of every length and then again when I start the next (when I do a continuous set with just one lap press at the start/end this does not happen - strange)
2016-12-21 7:46 AM
in reply to: aribloch

User image

Expert
4619
20002000500100
Middle River, Maryland
Silver member
Subject: RE: Why faster on short swim sets?

The intervals tab looks OK - not sure about the hover data issue.

Looking at your data, 16-17 strokes (which is really 32-34 because your Garmin only counts one arm) is a LOT to swim one length.  You must have a really quick turnover rate to get across in 30 seconds.  Without looking at video, I would bet it looks like you're really thrashing in the water and not getting any kind of catch and pull.

I'll leave the suggestions to the swim coaches on here, but that data really jumped out at me.

 

2016-12-22 2:29 AM
in reply to: jmhpsu93

User image


61
2525
Subject: RE: Why faster on short swim sets?
Originally posted by jmhpsu93

Looking at your data, 16-17 strokes (which is really 32-34 because your Garmin only counts one arm) is a LOT to swim one length.  You must have a really quick turnover rate to get across in 30 seconds. 




So are you suggesting that I should try to swim "slower" that is, less turnover, which to me would mean there is more "glide" before the next stroke?


2016-12-22 8:56 AM
in reply to: aribloch

User image


1502
1000500
Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Why faster on short swim sets?
Originally posted by aribloch

Originally posted by jmhpsu93

Looking at your data, 16-17 strokes (which is really 32-34 because your Garmin only counts one arm) is a LOT to swim one length.  You must have a really quick turnover rate to get across in 30 seconds. 




So are you suggesting that I should try to swim "slower" that is, less turnover, which to me would mean there is more "glide" before the next stroke?



Your stroke rate is a result, not a cause, so changing it won't help you. You need to fix your stroke....a lot. Shorter sets, longer sets, more rest, less rest, faster turnover, slower turnover...none of that will make an appreciable difference. I hate to be blunt but; there is something wrong with your stroke. The best use of your time would be to get swim lessons/instruction, or at the very least, post videos on here and head the advice given.
2016-12-22 9:07 AM
in reply to: aribloch

User image


1300
1000100100100
Subject: RE: Why faster on short swim sets?

Originally posted by aribloch
Originally posted by jmhpsu93

Looking at your data, 16-17 strokes (which is really 32-34 because your Garmin only counts one arm) is a LOT to swim one length.  You must have a really quick turnover rate to get across in 30 seconds. 

So are you suggesting that I should try to swim "slower" that is, less turnover, which to me would mean there is more "glide" before the next stroke?

from what I remember of your video I would definitely not at more glide to your stroke.  Among other things you have no real "catch".  Your hands are just moving through the water not pulling you through it.  There's some fundamental flaws.  I also seem to remember you don't really have access to a swim coach.  Try swimsmooth.com for some basics.  The videos might be very helpful to you. 

2016-12-22 10:00 AM
in reply to: Goggles Pizzano

User image

Expert
4619
20002000500100
Middle River, Maryland
Silver member
Subject: RE: Why faster on short swim sets?

Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano

Originally posted by aribloch
Originally posted by jmhpsu93

Looking at your data, 16-17 strokes (which is really 32-34 because your Garmin only counts one arm) is a LOT to swim one length.  You must have a really quick turnover rate to get across in 30 seconds. 

So are you suggesting that I should try to swim "slower" that is, less turnover, which to me would mean there is more "glide" before the next stroke?

from what I remember of your video I would definitely not at more glide to your stroke.  Among other things you have no real "catch".  Your hands are just moving through the water not pulling you through it.  There's some fundamental flaws.  I also seem to remember you don't really have access to a swim coach.  Try swimsmooth.com for some basics.  The videos might be very helpful to you. 

That's what I was thinking, too.  Hands and arms are just flailing through the water without any energy delivered to move the swimmer forward.

2016-12-23 4:17 AM
in reply to: jmhpsu93

User image


61
2525
Subject: RE: Why faster on short swim sets?

Here are two recent videos:

https://youtu.be/44FDDJKd1dc

https://youtu.be/Fdfvv-uYEYY

Appreciate your comments
2016-12-23 9:47 AM
in reply to: aribloch

User image

Member
622
500100
Franklin, TN
Subject: RE: Why faster on short swim sets?

Good work.   You're definitely crossing over with your left arm...it needs to enter the water out wider.  You are also really cutting your stroke short.  Think about brushing your thumb against your thigh.  Check out how far Juno extends his hand on the back half of the stroke...you lose a bit of momentum by cutting your stroke short.  This is something I continually work on too ... my coach is always encouraging me to extend to the hip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3HhNlysFDs&feature=youtu.be

A good gauge of how efficient your pull is to count the number of strokes per 25.  Assuming a 25 yard pool, you'd want that number to be below 20 for mid-pace efforts....probably about 22ish for a 25m pool.  It looks like you came in at about 28 for 25m.    Do 2 to 3 sets of 4x25' and try descending your stroke count for each 25.  Something like 28,27,26,25.  Try to get as close to 22 (or better) as you can.  Rinse and repeat.  The focus of this exercise is to get you to concentrate on the mechanics of getting the most out of each stroke.  



2016-12-23 11:49 AM
in reply to: aribloch

User image

Lethbridge, Alberta
Bronze member
Subject: RE: Why faster on short swim sets?
I'm no coach so take this with a grain of salt, but ...
I think you need to work on the "catch", among other things. This is not a longer glide though, instead think of it as getting a solid grip on the water before you pull hard. In the videos, it seems like your elbows are dropping as soon as your hands enter the water. Try to enter the water as wide as your shoulder but then bend the elbow to get your hand lower than the elbow. Adjusting your roll may make this easier on the shoulders. The idea is that your forearm can add to the surface area pulling back. Lead the forearm down with your fingers so your pull is directed back instead of downward as early as possible. To maintain a good grip on the water, try to accelerate your hand steadily back throughout the pull, all the way to a strong finish at the back. Good luck!
2016-12-23 1:12 PM
in reply to: 0

User image


1502
1000500
Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Why faster on short swim sets?
As with the others, I'm not a swim coach, but I'm fairly decent in the water, so take my advice for what it is worth.

Take a look at the screen shots below. In order to move forward, you have to push the water back with as much surface area as you can. You are doing the opposite. By dropping your elbow, you are essentially pushing no water back at all until one of the last pictures when your arm finally gets perpendicular to your body. This is the most powerful portion of your stroke and because of your arm and hand position, it is doing very little. The red lines in each picture are showing your arm and hand position, the yellow lines are what your arm SHOULD be doing. So you can see there is a very big difference which is causing all the wasted movement, and hence the reason you aren't moving forward very efficiently. The arrow in each picture is how you want to be pushing the water. So you want your forearm and hand to be at a 90 degree angle to that arrow as much as possible. You can see that because of the position of your arm you aren't able to push water in that direction from your elbow down. The only propulsion you are getting from the first half of your stroke is from your upper arm which would be equivalent to trying to run on your knees. When your arm is finally in a position to push in the direction you want, you are then pulling it out of the water to start your next stroke, so you are getting very little benefit. You should finish your stroke with your arm straight down at your side and your hand still perpendicular to your body to continue to move water the opposite direction of the way you want to go.

So you can see that due to the position of your arm throughout your stroke, you are doing very little to push yourself forward. That is why you are taking so many strokes to get to the other end of the pool and not going very quickly. Work on getting your arm into the right position and always be thinking about the fact that you are trying to push water from your head to your toes, so keep as much of your forearm and hand perpendicular to your body to push as much water that way as you can.

ETA: the attachments don't come up in order, so I am going to attach them as individual responses.

Edited by 3mar 2016-12-23 1:14 PM
2016-12-23 1:14 PM
in reply to: 3mar

User image


1502
1000500
Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Why faster on short swim sets?




(Swim1.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Swim1.jpg (86KB - 6 downloads)
2016-12-23 1:14 PM
in reply to: 3mar

User image


1502
1000500
Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Why faster on short swim sets?




(Swim2.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Swim2.jpg (124KB - 3 downloads)
2016-12-23 1:15 PM
in reply to: 3mar

User image


1502
1000500
Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Why faster on short swim sets?




(Swim3.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Swim3.jpg (91KB - 5 downloads)


2016-12-23 1:15 PM
in reply to: 3mar

User image


1502
1000500
Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Why faster on short swim sets?




(Swim4.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Swim4.jpg (86KB - 2 downloads)
2016-12-23 1:16 PM
in reply to: 3mar

User image


1502
1000500
Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Why faster on short swim sets?




(Swim5.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Swim5.jpg (78KB - 4 downloads)
2016-12-23 1:21 PM
in reply to: aribloch


1660
10005001002525
Subject: RE: Why faster on short swim sets?

I'm even simpler than all the above (correct) advice. 

Your CATCH is clearly lacking. 

Unfortunately, the only way to really improve your catch is to swim a lot, and often harder. In your case (and in most cases) lack of a catch is a muscular endurance situation where you need to have enough physical ability in your arms to execute an effective catch. 

The 'windmilling' of the arms occurs because your body/brain recognizes quickly that you can't sustain the force required to swim, say, a 1:30/100 pace, and thus it will drop the elbow and do other things to keep that arm moving as you want it to. Unfortunately, that means you're decreasing the effectiveness of your catch, and you go slower as a result. 

There a bunch of technical things that can be improved in the stroke, but honestly, the lack of power/muscular endurance is by farrrr the dominant feature. And you're not going to be able to just do a bunch of drills and magically chop of 20sec/100 - it's going to take hard work AND attention to technique. 

I definitely disagree with anyone who will suggest you have the physical capability RIGHT NOW to swim sub 1:40/100m, and that your technique flaws are the sole factor holding you back.

2016-12-24 1:54 AM
in reply to: yazmaster

User image


61
2525
Subject: RE: Why faster on short swim sets?

Thanks very much 3mar for the picture analysis, it really helps.

Originally posted by yazmaster

the lack of power/muscular endurance is by farrrr the dominant feature.




Yes, I suppose it's time to put in some serious gym work on those arms..... scrawny as they are

New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Why faster on short swim sets? Rss Feed  
 
 
of 2
 
 
RELATED POSTS

Swim in bike short/Bike in swim shorts

Started by Porfirio
Views: 984 Posts: 4

2012-04-27 9:21 AM Porfirio

Why do shorter swim sets in the pool? Pages: 1 2

Started by Dave 2.0
Views: 3027 Posts: 28

2012-03-08 7:13 AM TriAya

How fast should I be doing my swim sets

Started by cstoulil
Views: 1126 Posts: 10

2012-02-22 11:41 AM mrct

Why is the IM Swimming leg so short?

Started by Playtowinthegame
Views: 2308 Posts: 22

2010-03-02 1:01 PM dermoski

Why is the swim leg so short? Pages: 1 2 3

Started by SevenZulu
Views: 3366 Posts: 55

2007-07-07 1:25 PM amiine
RELATED ARTICLES
date : April 19, 2011
author : Total Immersion
comments : 0
Terry Laughlin will cover the elements of the "speed problem" in swimming, why the traditional means of swimming faster seldom work and why an often-ignored approach is virtually foolproof.
 
date : September 9, 2010
author : jasongootman
comments : 0
From simple time-trial testing or past performance, you can appropriately set your race goals for your upcoming races.
date : July 14, 2009
author : Tri Swim Coach
comments : 1
I can swim long with ease and have decent endurance, but I have a race coming up and I don't want to be last anymore. Help?
 
date : December 24, 2008
author : Tri Swim Coach
comments : 0
Discussions on further swim improvements, spicing up endurance swims, kicking for triathlon, pull buoy usage, not moving while kicking and rest intervals for fast/short sets.
date : February 7, 2008
author : Tri Swim Coach
comments : 4
Is it good to listen to music while lap swimming? Are there any devices to help you keep track of your laps?
 
date : July 31, 2005
author : Team BT
comments : 0
Working only on technique will not make a swimmer much faster; some work must be done at speeds and efforts that could cause technique to deteriorate.
date : July 5, 2005
author : Michael Silva
comments : 1
I don't really strength train (because I never have and don't really know much about it) and feel like my lack of upper body strength is the reason why I'm not getting faster.