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2017-03-23 1:27 PM
in reply to: jford2309

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Subject: RE: Towergate
Originally posted by jford2309

Let Rachel Maddow release it!  Please!!!!!








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2017-03-23 9:11 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Originally posted by dmiller5

i'm confused about the skepticism?

 

http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/22/pole itics/us-officials-info-suggests-trump-associates-may-have-coordinated-with-russians/index.html?adkey=bn

If it's on TV, radio, or print,  and told by some idiot who gets paid according to how many people watch or read, I'm skeptical.  In fact, I don't believe any of it. 

Somewhere in the middle of all this stupidity is the truth.....but nobody will ever know what the whole of that is. 

I'm happy enough just watching people lose their minds.  The circus was NEVER this good.

2017-09-19 9:08 AM
in reply to: Bob Loblaw

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Subject: RE: Towergate
Originally posted by Bob Loblaw

So now that the FBI, NSA, and DoJ have all stated that there's no evidence of any surveillance (wire tapping or otherwise) on Trump, I'd say it's time for POTUS to finally provide us with whatever evidence he has. Cause if he doesn't, it really starts to look like he just over-reacted to a gossipy Fox News story. Time to finish that game of 4D chess he's playing. LMAO





http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/18/politics/paul-manafort-government-wir...


This wiretapping was done in Trump Tower while Manafort was the head of the Trump campaign and obviously in constant telephone contract with DJT.
2017-09-19 10:05 AM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Subject: RE: Towergate
2017-09-19 3:44 PM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Subject: RE: Towergate

That's it? We waited 6 months to find out that the FBI started a criminal investigation of Paul Manafort two years before he was ever named Trump's campaign manager? How does this validate what Trump claimed in his tweets?

"Terrible! Just found out that Obama had my "wires tapped" in Trump Tower just before the victory. Nothing found. This is McCarthyism!"

"How low has President Obama gone to tapp my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy!"

He accused Obama of spying on him during the election, and he's yet to provide any evidence. A CNN report (I thought they were fake news?) that Manafort has been under FBI surveillance since 2014 doesn't really back up his accusations. Something set him off on March 4, so just throw your cards on the table already, arrest Obama, and let's all move on to bigger and better things like starting a war with North Korea. 

2017-09-19 5:11 PM
in reply to: Bob Loblaw

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Subject: RE: Towergate

Originally posted by Bob Loblaw

That's it? We waited 6 months to find out that the FBI started a criminal investigation of Paul Manafort two years before he was ever named Trump's campaign manager? How does this validate what Trump claimed in his tweets?

"Terrible! Just found out that Obama had my "wires tapped" in Trump Tower just before the victory. Nothing found. This is McCarthyism!"

"How low has President Obama gone to tapp my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy!"

He accused Obama of spying on him during the election, and he's yet to provide any evidence. A CNN report (I thought they were fake news?) that Manafort has been under FBI surveillance since 2014 doesn't really back up his accusations. Something set him off on March 4, so just throw your cards on the table already, arrest Obama, and let's all move on to bigger and better things like starting a war with North Korea. 

I like how you selectively omitted the stuff that doesn't help your cause.  Their was an investigation that led to nothing where Manafort was being tapped prior to the election, you are correct there.  However, the taps were stopped upon the conclusion of that investigation and then after he was named to Trump's team the taps were started again for no apparent reason (up to and after the election).  This is where it is very bad for team Obama.

"US investigators wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort under secret court orders before and after the election, sources tell CNN, an extraordinary step involving a high-ranking campaign official now at the center of the Russia meddling probe. The government snooping continued into early this year, including a period when Manafort was known to talk to President Donald Trump. Some of the intelligence collected includes communications that sparked concerns among investigators that Manafort had encouraged the Russians to help with the campaign, according to three sources familiar with the investigation. Two of these sources, however, cautioned that the evidence is not conclusive." - From CNN article

Sadly you and I both know that nothing will happen to Obama or anyone on his team no matter how bad they violated the law.  Our politicians on both sides are above the law.  



2017-09-19 8:37 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Towergate

Um a) that investigation is still ongoing (Manafort's home was recently raided as I recall).  b) we can speculate all day on the Internet but no one here can confirm what the FISA court did or did not issue as far as warrants go.  That's sort of the point of that court.

2017-09-19 9:08 PM
in reply to: spudone

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Subject: RE: Towergate
I got to say, I really thought Mike Flynn would be the first to get a pair of stripey pajamas.
2017-09-19 9:36 PM
in reply to: Oysterboy

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Nobody is going to prison.

2017-09-19 10:05 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Towergate
Originally posted by Left Brain

Nobody is going to prison.

Sadly I agree, and what's worse is that half the country is totally cool with that as long as the other guy or gal has the appropriate D or R behind their name
2017-09-20 8:54 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Towergate

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Bob Loblaw

That's it? We waited 6 months to find out that the FBI started a criminal investigation of Paul Manafort two years before he was ever named Trump's campaign manager? How does this validate what Trump claimed in his tweets?

"Terrible! Just found out that Obama had my "wires tapped" in Trump Tower just before the victory. Nothing found. This is McCarthyism!"

"How low has President Obama gone to tapp my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy!"

He accused Obama of spying on him during the election, and he's yet to provide any evidence. A CNN report (I thought they were fake news?) that Manafort has been under FBI surveillance since 2014 doesn't really back up his accusations. Something set him off on March 4, so just throw your cards on the table already, arrest Obama, and let's all move on to bigger and better things like starting a war with North Korea. 

I like how you selectively omitted the stuff that doesn't help your cause.  Their was an investigation that led to nothing where Manafort was being tapped prior to the election, you are correct there.  However, the taps were stopped upon the conclusion of that investigation and then after he was named to Trump's team the taps were started again for no apparent reason (up to and after the election).  This is where it is very bad for team Obama.

"US investigators wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort under secret court orders before and after the election, sources tell CNN, an extraordinary step involving a high-ranking campaign official now at the center of the Russia meddling probe. The government snooping continued into early this year, including a period when Manafort was known to talk to President Donald Trump. Some of the intelligence collected includes communications that sparked concerns among investigators that Manafort had encouraged the Russians to help with the campaign, according to three sources familiar with the investigation. Two of these sources, however, cautioned that the evidence is not conclusive." - From CNN article

Sadly you and I both know that nothing will happen to Obama or anyone on his team no matter how bad they violated the law.  Our politicians on both sides are above the law.  

You selectively omitted a few things as well. Such as "As Manafort took the reins as Trump campaign chairman in May, the FBI surveillance technicians were no longer listening." and "Manafort was ousted from the campaign in August. By then the FBI had noticed what counterintelligence agents thought was a series of odd connections between Trump associates and Russia. The CIA also had developed information, including from human intelligence sources, that they believed showed Russian President Vladimir Putin had ordered his intelligence services to conduct a broad operation to meddle with the US election, according to current and former US officials. The FBI surveillance teams, under a new FISA warrant, began monitoring Manafort again, sources tell CNN."

Since the report doesn't give any real dates, it's not entirely clear. But it appears that the only time he wasn't under an FBI investigation was during the time he worked for Trump's campaign. Also, you say they started up again for no apparent reason. The FBI raided his house and, at least according to the NY Times, he's about to be indicted. Oh, and there was this https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/15/us/politics/paul-manafort-ukraine-donald-trump.html. So maybe there was a reason?

But putting all of that aside, none of that is what Trump accused Obama of doing. "How low has President Obama gone to tapp my phones during the very sacred election process." He didn't say "Just found out the FBI is back investigation someone who left my team 3 months before the election following the discovery of a secret Ukrainian ledger with $12M of cash payments to him, but who I occasionally still talk to on the phone and now I may have been recorded." 
 
Obama tapped my phones. That's the accusation. And Spicer can say tapped doesn't mean tapped. Fine, bugged his office, intercepted his emails, installed microwaves that turn in to cameras, whatever surveillance you want to assume they did. Just give us some tiny little bit of proof that your claim is fact and not just a knee-jerk reaction to a trashy Breitbart clickbait article. Is that asking too much? 


2017-09-20 9:50 AM
in reply to: Bob Loblaw

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Subject: RE: Towergate

Originally posted by Bob Loblaw

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Bob Loblaw

That's it? We waited 6 months to find out that the FBI started a criminal investigation of Paul Manafort two years before he was ever named Trump's campaign manager? How does this validate what Trump claimed in his tweets?

"Terrible! Just found out that Obama had my "wires tapped" in Trump Tower just before the victory. Nothing found. This is McCarthyism!"

"How low has President Obama gone to tapp my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy!"

He accused Obama of spying on him during the election, and he's yet to provide any evidence. A CNN report (I thought they were fake news?) that Manafort has been under FBI surveillance since 2014 doesn't really back up his accusations. Something set him off on March 4, so just throw your cards on the table already, arrest Obama, and let's all move on to bigger and better things like starting a war with North Korea. 

I like how you selectively omitted the stuff that doesn't help your cause.  Their was an investigation that led to nothing where Manafort was being tapped prior to the election, you are correct there.  However, the taps were stopped upon the conclusion of that investigation and then after he was named to Trump's team the taps were started again for no apparent reason (up to and after the election).  This is where it is very bad for team Obama.

"US investigators wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort under secret court orders before and after the election, sources tell CNN, an extraordinary step involving a high-ranking campaign official now at the center of the Russia meddling probe. The government snooping continued into early this year, including a period when Manafort was known to talk to President Donald Trump. Some of the intelligence collected includes communications that sparked concerns among investigators that Manafort had encouraged the Russians to help with the campaign, according to three sources familiar with the investigation. Two of these sources, however, cautioned that the evidence is not conclusive." - From CNN article

Sadly you and I both know that nothing will happen to Obama or anyone on his team no matter how bad they violated the law.  Our politicians on both sides are above the law.  

You selectively omitted a few things as well. Such as "As Manafort took the reins as Trump campaign chairman in May, the FBI surveillance technicians were no longer listening." and "Manafort was ousted from the campaign in August. By then the FBI had noticed what counterintelligence agents thought was a series of odd connections between Trump associates and Russia. The CIA also had developed information, including from human intelligence sources, that they believed showed Russian President Vladimir Putin had ordered his intelligence services to conduct a broad operation to meddle with the US election, according to current and former US officials. The FBI surveillance teams, under a new FISA warrant, began monitoring Manafort again, sources tell CNN."

Since the report doesn't give any real dates, it's not entirely clear. But it appears that the only time he wasn't under an FBI investigation was during the time he worked for Trump's campaign. Also, you say they started up again for no apparent reason. The FBI raided his house and, at least according to the NY Times, he's about to be indicted. Oh, and there was this https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/15/us/politics/paul-manafort-ukraine-donald-trump.html. So maybe there was a reason?

But putting all of that aside, none of that is what Trump accused Obama of doing. "How low has President Obama gone to tapp my phones during the very sacred election process." He didn't say "Just found out the FBI is back investigation someone who left my team 3 months before the election following the discovery of a secret Ukrainian ledger with $12M of cash payments to him, but who I occasionally still talk to on the phone and now I may have been recorded." 
 
Obama tapped my phones. That's the accusation. And Spicer can say tapped doesn't mean tapped. Fine, bugged his office, intercepted his emails, installed microwaves that turn in to cameras, whatever surveillance you want to assume they did. Just give us some tiny little bit of proof that your claim is fact and not just a knee-jerk reaction to a trashy Breitbart clickbait article. Is that asking too much? 

I probably shouldn't have said "for no apparent reason".  For reasons we don't know is probably a more accurate way to say it.

Here's the rub for me.  If, and I'll throw it out as an if, Obama wanted to spy on his political opponents he could simply have an "investigation" to justify secretive FISA warrants and then listen in on his political opponents.  This would obviously be a very bad thing and I'm sure we could agree upon that, if it were true.

What we do know is that there was an investigation, we also know there were wire taps involved as part of the investigation.  According to CNN the wiretaps were stopped due to lack of evidence (their inside source). 
The FBI then restarted the surveillance after obtaining a new FISA warrant and it extended into early this year.  They are not telling us exactly when that surveillance started, but their source is saying that it was part of the FBI's efforts to investigate ties between Trump campaign associates and Russian operatives, which IMHO is the biggest stinker of the whole thing.

The whole Russia collusion narrative has been proven false, it was a nothingburger from the beginning.  So, based on that we now have the Obama administration who took, in my opinion, a bogus Trumped up accusation and used it as justification to wire tap the head of his political campaign.  Even if it was done after he was fired, CNN is saying that conversations between Manafort and Trump continued well after he took office. 

2017-09-20 10:51 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Headlines: Monaford named to head Trump Campaign

FBI: Hey, we had a FISA warrant on him?

Obama: Start listening to him again. See if we can show Trump is in cahoots with Monford's Russian dealing.

FBI: We can use the Trump dossier as evidence the Trump campaign is tied to Russia and we already know Moneford is tied to Russia.

Obama: Make it so Comey.

2017-09-20 11:04 AM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Subject: RE: Towergate

Terrible! Just found out that Obama had my "wires tapped" in Trump Tower just before the victory. Nothing found. This is McCarthyism!

I'd bet a good lawyer could make a great case out of the fact that President Obama was tapping my phones in October, just prior to Election!

How low has President Obama gone to tapp my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy!

2017-09-20 11:09 AM
in reply to: Bob Loblaw

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Originally posted by Bob Loblaw

Terrible! Just found out that Obama had my "wires tapped" in Trump Tower just before the victory. Nothing found. This is McCarthyism!

I'd bet a good lawyer could make a great case out of the fact that President Obama was tapping my phones in October, just prior to Election!

How low has President Obama gone to tapp my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy!

Don't forget, we're just learning about this story which is discrediting a lot of earlier statements that were made by officials (even under oath).  In other words, there could be more.

That being said, if this is all there is and for arguments sake lets say it was driven by Obama's team for political gain, does it meet the qualifications of validating Trump's tweets?  From an english major literal standpoint I supposed not, because it would have to be Trumps actual phone that was physically tapped, but from a practical standpoint, if Manaforts phones were tapped when he was talking to Trump resulting in Trumps conversations being recorded then I'd say he was absolutely correct.  

2017-09-20 11:18 AM
in reply to: Bob Loblaw

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It's no secret where I stand on most of this crap, but I'm no homer.  That being said......uh.....I have a REALLY hard time believing that President Obama or anyone else tried to get Trump on something damaging BEFORE the election.  There is not a single person in the group of "usual suspects" who thought Trump had a snowball's chance in hell of being elected President.

This is ALL looking through the rear view mirror.   Nobody was driving the car at the time it ran into the ditch and now they all want to investigate the accident. 



2017-09-20 11:30 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Originally posted by Left Brain

It's no secret where I stand on most of this crap, but I'm no homer.  That being said......uh.....I have a REALLY hard time believing that President Obama or anyone else tried to get Trump on something damaging BEFORE the election.  There is not a single person in the group of "usual suspects" who thought Trump had a snowball's chance in hell of being elected President.

This is ALL looking through the rear view mirror.   Nobody was driving the car at the time it ran into the ditch and now they all want to investigate the accident. 




True. I doubt Obama would have stuck his neck out for HRC. He hated her. He probably hated Trump more though....and knew that Trump, IF that 12:1 longshot nag did win the race, his legacy was in jeopardy.

About the only thing I feel 99.99% sure of is the Russian did not influence the US election in any significant way - if at all! The whole Russian thing is a red herring meant to 'explain' why the left got beat and why the media got it so wrong.
2017-09-20 11:51 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Towergate

Originally posted by Left Brain

It's no secret where I stand on most of this crap, but I'm no homer.  That being said......uh.....I have a REALLY hard time believing that President Obama or anyone else tried to get Trump on something damaging BEFORE the election.  There is not a single person in the group of "usual suspects" who thought Trump had a snowball's chance in hell of being elected President.

This is ALL looking through the rear view mirror.   Nobody was driving the car at the time it ran into the ditch and now they all want to investigate the accident. 

I doubt he was trying to get Trump but I would not be surprised at all if there was prior surveillance of Manafort, due to the Ukraine situation.  Manafort worked for Ukraine's former president for many years -- the guy the Kremlin wanted in power.  So once Russia annexed the Crimean peninsula, that probably drew attention.

2017-09-20 11:54 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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The whole Russia collusion narrative has been proven false, it was a nothingburger from the beginning.

You can say nothing has been proven on Russia collusion, but since Mueller's investigation is ongoing, I don't think you can say it has been proven false (or true).  Otherwise he would've wrapped this up already.

2017-09-20 11:54 AM
in reply to: spudone

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Subject: RE: Towergate
Every time I read or hear about "Russian meddling" this comes to mind:





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2017-09-20 12:06 PM
in reply to: spudone

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Originally posted by spudone

The whole Russia collusion narrative has been proven false, it was a nothingburger from the beginning.

You can say nothing has been proven on Russia collusion, but since Mueller's investigation is ongoing, I don't think you can say it has been proven false (or true).  Otherwise he would've wrapped this up already.

ok, how about "not proven accurate" :-D 



2017-09-20 12:45 PM
in reply to: spudone

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Originally posted by spudone

The whole Russia collusion narrative has been proven false, it was a nothingburger from the beginning.

You can say nothing has been proven on Russia collusion, but since Mueller's investigation is ongoing, I don't think you can say it has been proven false (or true).  Otherwise he would've wrapped this up already.




You may be right and they are still 'investigating' but is nearly impossible to prove a negative. The negative being there was no collusion.

They will keep going until they find a respectable crime that they can say justified their multi-million dollar budget. Doubtful it will have anything to do with the election. More than likely financial crime(s) by Manaford. This will allow some cover for the dems and the media as they can say, "See, there WAS criminal activity!"

I thought about something last night....about CNN. I read a couple of weeks ago that CNN was pulling the plug on the Russian thing. After having gotten burnt bad in as many week, they broke up the investigation team. So it surprised me that CNN broke the Manaford wire-tapping story. Had CNN decided to be real investigative reporters now looking for facts and not just looking for Trump dirt?
2017-09-21 6:45 PM
in reply to: Rogillio

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They will keep going until they find a respectable crime that they can say justified their multi-million dollar budget. Doubtful it will have anything to do with the election. More than likely financial crime(s) by Manaford. This will allow some cover for the dems and the media as they can say, "See, there WAS criminal activity!" 

This is probably a good prediction because in the political realm, the best way to put out a fire like this is to sacrifice someone to the sharks that are circling.

It depends on whether Mueller can keep running a tight ship and not tip his hand.  I expect we'll see a bunch of immunity deals in exchange for testimony and someone will lose at musical chairs and take the brunt of the punishment.

2017-09-21 10:13 PM
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Originally posted by spudone

They will keep going until they find a respectable crime that they can say justified their multi-million dollar budget. Doubtful it will have anything to do with the election. More than likely financial crime(s) by Manaford. This will allow some cover for the dems and the media as they can say, "See, there WAS criminal activity!" 

This is probably a good prediction because in the political realm, the best way to put out a fire like this is to sacrifice someone to the sharks that are circling.

It depends on whether Mueller can keep running a tight ship and not tip his hand.  I expect we'll see a bunch of immunity deals in exchange for testimony and someone will lose at musical chairs and take the brunt of the punishment.

And then President Trump will pardon them..............the end.

2017-09-21 10:28 PM
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Subject: RE: Towergate

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by spudone

They will keep going until they find a respectable crime that they can say justified their multi-million dollar budget. Doubtful it will have anything to do with the election. More than likely financial crime(s) by Manaford. This will allow some cover for the dems and the media as they can say, "See, there WAS criminal activity!" 

This is probably a good prediction because in the political realm, the best way to put out a fire like this is to sacrifice someone to the sharks that are circling.

It depends on whether Mueller can keep running a tight ship and not tip his hand.  I expect we'll see a bunch of immunity deals in exchange for testimony and someone will lose at musical chairs and take the brunt of the punishment.

And then President Trump will pardon them..............the end.

If they've been loyal heh.



Edited by spudone 2017-09-21 10:29 PM
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