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2017-03-14 11:56 AM

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Subject: Swim Advice Needed!
Good Day All!

I need a bit of swim advice from those who know their stuff in the pool. I'm a solid MOP swimmer, never competed until I took up triathlon, grew up on the water, surfing, sailing, SCUBA diving, so very comfortable in the open water. Question is this;

today I was doing alternating 300s, first with a pull buoy, then without. My 300 time with the pull buoy was 6:11, 6:12, and 6:10 without the pull buoy I was 6:22, 6:27, and 6:23. What gives?!? Why am I slower when I kick? I think i should be faster, with the added thrust from my feet, and less drag from the pull buoy. I know its hard to give advice without watching my poor excuse for a swim stroke, but what should I check? any areas I should focus on to make sure I'm doing it right? Any and all advice welcome, and thanks in advance.

Edited by SeaDogAther 2017-03-14 12:03 PM


2017-03-14 12:16 PM
in reply to: SeaDogAther

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Subject: RE: Swim Advice Needed!
Let me preface what I'm about to say with, I'm not an expert, at all. I have had a ton of swim practice, a few coached sessions, and read a ton of information, that's it. With that said, here's what I have noticed, at least about myself.

Using a pull buoy raises your legs creating less drag. When I use one, I swim around 1:30/100yds. Without it, I'm closer to 1:42/100yds. I have a hell of kick in the swim, and if I think about it, I can over come this deficit by kicking like crazy. However, when I do this I'm exhausted after 1,000 yds. The one thing I was taught was to think "Swim down hill". In other words, press your chest to the bottom of the pool. It sounds corny but it works. The difference is the drag your legs are creating. Even being a good swimmer, we have a tendency to drop our hips in the water, the legs follow, creating drag. Even when kicking. When your upper body gets lower, the hips raise, raising the legs, reducing drag. When I have practiced the technique of swimming down hill, I lose only 3 seconds/100yds and my legs are saved for the upcoming bike leg.

Just my .02 cents, but as I said, I'm no expert.
2017-03-14 1:15 PM
in reply to: Rooster519

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Subject: RE: Swim Advice Needed!
Rooster,

Thanks! that sounds like a plausible explanation for what I'm seeing and I'm going to give swimming downhill a try. Knowing that, I guess that helps explain why I tend to be faster in a wet-suit.
2017-03-14 6:41 PM
in reply to: SeaDogAther

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Subject: RE: Swim Advice Needed!

It's pretty much what Rooster says.  You probably have a body position issue but other things could also be contributing.  ie. non-propulsive kick and/or scissor-kicking.  The pull buoy will raise your hips and keep your feet closer together so your streamline and body position will be enhanced.  

How fast do you kick a 25 yards?  30secs?, 40secs?, longer? Propulsion/ankle flexibility issue.

Is your rear near the surface when you're swimming without a pull buoy? Body position issue

Have you taken a video of your swim to see if you have a scissor kick issue when you breathe?  Do you keep your kicks pretty tight? Streamline/drag issue

If you have issues with any of the above, the pull buoy will mask the problem a bit.  

2017-03-15 11:30 AM
in reply to: SeaDogAther

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Subject: RE: Swim Advice Needed!
You got some good replies. But more info:

Distance swimming is about many things, but it is hugely about reducing hydrodynamic drag.

In short sprint (swim) events, say, like the 50m, 100m, and 200m, the kick provides significant propulsion (and some buoyancy). However, when the race distance in a pool or other body of water gets longer, like 800m, 1000m, 1500m, or longer, the kick is still essential but it provides only a tiny amount of forward propulsion. However, for distance freestyle, the kick provides a big assist in increasing your effective buoyancy.

So, in distance swim events (including triathlons, of course), if the kick is properly and efficiently executed, you get more buoyancy. And more effective buoyancy = less drag. Less drag = more swim speed (all other things being equal, of course).

You might find that you will always be a bit faster when using a pull buoy than when swimming normally at the same effort level. But if the speed difference with a buoy and without a buoy is big for you, it likely means that you may need to modify and improve your kick technique (slowing it down, changing the timing, fully streamlining your legs and ankles, etc.) to increase the effective buoyancy in your lower body.

Greg @ dsw

2017-03-15 1:26 PM
in reply to: DarkSpeedWorks

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Subject: RE: Swim Advice Needed!
Thanks for the advice everyone, looks like I have a bit of work to do to go from an average swimmer to a good swimmer. Does anyone think that a short (1 hour long) one-on-one swim couching session would be worth while?


2017-03-15 4:13 PM
in reply to: SeaDogAther

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Subject: RE: Swim Advice Needed!
Originally posted by SeaDogAther
Thanks for the advice everyone, looks like I have a bit of work to do to go from an average swimmer to a good swimmer. Does anyone think that a short (1 hour long) one-on-one swim couching session would be worth while?

If you can find an outstanding swim technique instructor, then a one-on-one coaching session would be hugely worthwhile. But if it is with a crappy teacher, then it will be a waste of time and money.

How to find an outstanding swim technique coach?
If it helps, we have a few suggestions on how to find one here:
http://darkspeedworks.com/blog-swimcoach.htm

Greg @ dsw
2017-03-15 6:33 PM
in reply to: DarkSpeedWorks

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Subject: RE: Swim Advice Needed!

Originally posted by DarkSpeedWorks
Originally posted by

SeaDogAther Thanks for the advice everyone, looks like I have a bit of work to do to go from an average swimmer to a good swimmer. Does anyone think that a short (1 hour long) one-on-one swim couching session would be worth while?

If you can find an outstanding swim technique instructor, then a one-on-one coaching session would be hugely worthwhile. But if it is with a crappy teacher, then it will be a waste of time and money.

How to find an outstanding swim technique coach?
If it helps, we have a few suggestions on how to find one here:
http://darkspeedworks.com/blog-swimcoach.htm Greg @ dsw

Hey Greg,

With all possible respect, I still vehemently disagree with the premise of the following statement from your website - 

"For example, when selecting a technique instructor, it may be wise to avoid one that has swum fast since early childhood. Because the important thing for you as a new swimmer is not to just find a super fast swimmer as a coach. Yes, you should find someone who can swim fast and someone who also really knows triathlon, but what you really need is someone who (and here's the kicker) can teach you how to swim faster. And, as you might imagine, this is not so easy to do. Sure, many very fast swimmers who have been training since youth swim great, but they do it almost instinctively, many of them simply don't know how to closely observe and troubleshoot your specific technique flaws and then tell you exactly how to correct each of them. Partly because they've never been down that path themselves."

You discount those of us who were fortunately to have natural ability and to have been fast when we were young who then went on to successful coaching careers.  I absolutely agree that anyone seeking a coach should strive to find someone that can identify technique flaws and be able to clearly articulate what needs to be done to correct those flaws.  However, to encourage someone to immediately discount a coach because that coach had natural ability and was fast in his/her youth just seems misguided to me.  

Using your logic, perhaps we should discount everything that comes out of the Gary Hall's Race Club?  He only swam in three Olympic games and was certainly fast as a youth.  Yet, he arguably has some of the best swim technique information available.

I agree to disagree, with all due respect.

2017-03-15 7:26 PM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: Swim Advice Needed!
Hi Scott, no worries, there are exceptions to every generalization out there. Our webpage blog post was just based on what I have seen myself over many decades. But there are definitely coaches out there that are exceptions (you, likely, are one) to my broad generalization. My post was just based on some advice that I have found that has worked. But if you have other suggestions based on your swim experience to help the OP find a great coach or instructor, I am sure he would welcome your input help. I think we are on the same page.

Greg @ dsw
2017-03-16 1:04 PM
in reply to: DarkSpeedWorks

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Subject: RE: Swim Advice Needed!
So, got in the pool this morning and after my warm up, I swam 300 with a pull buoy in 6:11 and then 300 without the pull buoy in 6:10, just to be sure it wasn't a fluke I then swam 500 with the pull buoy in 10:58 and then 500 without in 10:50. Turns out that trying to 'swim down' and keep my upper body below my torso and legs actually kept me level in the water and seems to have helped equalize my times.

Now I've got to just get my overall speed up at the same RPE and I'll be all set!
2017-03-16 7:48 PM
in reply to: #5215869

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Subject: RE: Swim Advice Needed!
Awesome! I'm glad you were able to find some answers in the water. If you are looking for help with speed, I do think a coach would help. The one thing to keep in mind is the type of swimming we do. Triathlon swimming is different from regular swimming, so look for a coach proficient in tri swimming. It can be very helpful in finding any imbalances or hiccups in your stroke.


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