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2017-03-21 12:28 PM

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Subject: Hate crimes
"hate crime laws enhance the penalties associated with conduct which is already criminal under other laws"

So this puts judges/juries in the heads/hearts of criminals in order to judge their motivation. Presuming you can actually effectively/accurately make this determine the motive of the criminal, what is the basis to punish this criminal harsher than the criminal who's motive was arbitrary....or whose motive was love....or whose motive was money.....or whose motive was drugs or sex....or whose motive was simply for the 'thrill' of hurting someone?

Just some thoughts for discussion.....



2017-03-21 12:30 PM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Subject: RE: Hate crimes

to punish those who want to persecute minority groups more harshly....in an effort to protect those groups.  say the jews for example

2017-03-21 12:50 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Hate crimes
Originally posted by dmiller5

to punish those who want to persecute minority groups more harshly....in an effort to protect those groups.  say the jews for example




Yes, you simply restated this:

"hate crime laws enhance the penalties associated with conduct which is already criminal under other laws"


My question is, why. If I drive my car down the road randomly running people over....why is that punished less severely than if I dive my car through a Jewish neighborhood running people over?


Maybe the intent is as a 'deterrent' but I seriously doubt criminals look up minimum sentences for the crimes they are pondering.
2017-03-21 1:05 PM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Subject: RE: Hate crimes

its not the jewish neighborhood.  its if you get in your car and say i'm going to run over every jew i see.  and the reason is to prevent persecution of groups....but making the punishment more severe.

 

if you lynch that black guy you're never seeing the light of day again. its a deterrent

2017-03-21 1:56 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Hate crimes

These things are complicated because they tend to only offer enhancements for specific minority groups as dmiller mentioned.  However, if somebody comes to my office and assaults me because I am a conservative and support Trump then they're very much committing a crime of hate as well.  However, because I'm white it's not as serious of a legal offense if I were a minority which is the issue because I think we can all agree that hate is hate no matter who the victim.

That being said, the laws were originally set up (I think in CA first) because there were specific minority groups that were being targeted and assaulted fairly regularly.  So as a deterrent the legislature created enhancements for crimes that were considered a "hate crime" and came up with their language to qualify an offense as being a "hate crime".  On the surface I am ok with that and it has served a purpose when they were enacted.

Fast forward 20 or 30 years later and things have changed.  If we watch the news the past several months it's assault after assault after assault at political rallies and where people are trying to peacefully protest events (on both sides).  These attacks are very much hate crimes from bigots who simply cannot tolerate people with opposing viewpoints, which isn't much unlike somebody who can't tolerate somebody with a different skin color.  In other words, times change and the laws need to be adjusted to deter bad behavior. 

2017-03-21 2:32 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Hate crimes

Originally posted by tuwood

These things are complicated because they tend to only offer enhancements for specific minority groups as dmiller mentioned.  However, if somebody comes to my office and assaults me because I am a conservative and support Trump then they're very much committing a crime of hate as well.  However, because I'm white it's not as serious of a legal offense if I were a minority which is the issue because I think we can all agree that hate is hate no matter who the victim.

That being said, the laws were originally set up (I think in CA first) because there were specific minority groups that were being targeted and assaulted fairly regularly.  So as a deterrent the legislature created enhancements for crimes that were considered a "hate crime" and came up with their language to qualify an offense as being a "hate crime".  On the surface I am ok with that and it has served a purpose when they were enacted.

Fast forward 20 or 30 years later and things have changed.  If we watch the news the past several months it's assault after assault after assault at political rallies and where people are trying to peacefully protest events (on both sides).  These attacks are very much hate crimes from bigots who simply cannot tolerate people with opposing viewpoints, which isn't much unlike somebody who can't tolerate somebody with a different skin color.  In other words, times change and the laws need to be adjusted to deter bad behavior. 

Your example sort of splits into two parts.  If someone went after you because of your *identity*, that's a hate crime.  For example, your skin color, regardless of what it is.  But it's not a hate crime when someone doesn't like something you *do*, like supporting a particular political candidate.

Honestly I think criminalizing motives, on top of the crime itself is messy.  Assault is still assault, murder is still murder.  Let a judge figure out if motives should affect sentencing - just my opinion.



2017-03-21 2:36 PM
in reply to: spudone

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Subject: RE: Hate crimes

Originally posted by spudone

Originally posted by tuwood

These things are complicated because they tend to only offer enhancements for specific minority groups as dmiller mentioned.  However, if somebody comes to my office and assaults me because I am a conservative and support Trump then they're very much committing a crime of hate as well.  However, because I'm white it's not as serious of a legal offense if I were a minority which is the issue because I think we can all agree that hate is hate no matter who the victim.

That being said, the laws were originally set up (I think in CA first) because there were specific minority groups that were being targeted and assaulted fairly regularly.  So as a deterrent the legislature created enhancements for crimes that were considered a "hate crime" and came up with their language to qualify an offense as being a "hate crime".  On the surface I am ok with that and it has served a purpose when they were enacted.

Fast forward 20 or 30 years later and things have changed.  If we watch the news the past several months it's assault after assault after assault at political rallies and where people are trying to peacefully protest events (on both sides).  These attacks are very much hate crimes from bigots who simply cannot tolerate people with opposing viewpoints, which isn't much unlike somebody who can't tolerate somebody with a different skin color.  In other words, times change and the laws need to be adjusted to deter bad behavior. 

Your example sort of splits into two parts.  If someone went after you because of your *identity*, that's a hate crime.  For example, your skin color, regardless of what it is.  But it's not a hate crime when someone doesn't like something you *do*, like supporting a particular political candidate.

Honestly I think criminalizing motives, on top of the crime itself is messy.  Assault is still assault, murder is still murder.  Let a judge figure out if motives should affect sentencing - just my opinion.

From a legal standpoint you are correct, but if somebody attacks me based on my political beliefs alone it's still hate driven.  It's not legally hate per the minority aspect required by the law, but that doesn't make it any less hateful.  It's certainly not done out of love.  ;-

2017-03-21 2:38 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Hate crimes

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by spudone

Originally posted by tuwood

These things are complicated because they tend to only offer enhancements for specific minority groups as dmiller mentioned.  However, if somebody comes to my office and assaults me because I am a conservative and support Trump then they're very much committing a crime of hate as well.  However, because I'm white it's not as serious of a legal offense if I were a minority which is the issue because I think we can all agree that hate is hate no matter who the victim.

That being said, the laws were originally set up (I think in CA first) because there were specific minority groups that were being targeted and assaulted fairly regularly.  So as a deterrent the legislature created enhancements for crimes that were considered a "hate crime" and came up with their language to qualify an offense as being a "hate crime".  On the surface I am ok with that and it has served a purpose when they were enacted.

Fast forward 20 or 30 years later and things have changed.  If we watch the news the past several months it's assault after assault after assault at political rallies and where people are trying to peacefully protest events (on both sides).  These attacks are very much hate crimes from bigots who simply cannot tolerate people with opposing viewpoints, which isn't much unlike somebody who can't tolerate somebody with a different skin color.  In other words, times change and the laws need to be adjusted to deter bad behavior. 

Your example sort of splits into two parts.  If someone went after you because of your *identity*, that's a hate crime.  For example, your skin color, regardless of what it is.  But it's not a hate crime when someone doesn't like something you *do*, like supporting a particular political candidate.

Honestly I think criminalizing motives, on top of the crime itself is messy.  Assault is still assault, murder is still murder.  Let a judge figure out if motives should affect sentencing - just my opinion.

From a legal standpoint you are correct, but if somebody attacks me based on my political beliefs alone it's still hate driven.  It's not legally hate per the minority aspect required by the law, but that doesn't make it any less hateful.  It's certainly not done out of love.  ;-

Yeah the current laws should probably refer to "discrimination crimes" but it doesn't roll off the tongue as nicely :P



Edited by spudone 2017-03-21 2:39 PM
2017-03-21 5:44 PM
in reply to: spudone

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Subject: RE: Hate crimes

I hate this.

2017-03-28 8:51 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Hate crimes

Speaking of Hate Crimes.  Just saw this, and it perfectly describes the violent protesters. lol
https://www.facebook.com/LibertyMemesPage/videos/1255906974530585/

The protesters are quite literally brownshirts.  Here in Omaha we had Trump support rallies over the weekend and a bunch of jack booted thugs showed up in masks and weapons to "protest".  Fortunately they were promptly taken out by the police. 
Do these idiots seriously think they're going to win support for liberal causes by committing political hate crimes?

2017-03-28 11:56 AM
in reply to: #5216446

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Subject: RE: Hate crimes
When certain people do these things, it is not considered hate crime, and yes, Libtard nation encourages (or at least, doesn't discourage it much). Sad


2017-03-28 2:01 PM
in reply to: goforit

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Subject: RE: Hate crimes

Originally posted by goforit When certain people do these things, it is not considered hate crime, and yes, Libtard nation encourages (or at least, doesn't discourage it much). Sad

OMG WHAT LIBTARDS BRING BACK KRYSTALNACHT

2017-03-28 2:20 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Hate crimes

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by goforit When certain people do these things, it is not considered hate crime, and yes, Libtard nation encourages (or at least, doesn't discourage it much). Sad

OMG WHAT LIBTARDS BRING BACK KRYSTALNACHT

That's a pretty accurate description of the "protesters".

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