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2017-10-02 9:05 AM

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Subject: Vegas
Terrible. I was there last week and flew home on the 27th. Granted we spent no time in Vegas, but just got a rental car and headed to Utah for some hiking. But still, made me sick this AM to wake up to the news. Anyone heard from Kido?

This will bring gun control up to the front burner again as it always does. Should be interesting to see which front the democrats take this week. Will they relent from their baseless attack of how Puerto Rico is being handled? Russian collusion? Will they go straight to gun control? Or will they attempt a multi front assault on the admin? Should be interesting.

CNN is actually reporting the news today instead of running a political agenda. CNN. com doesn't have an entire front center column dedicated to to destroying the Trump administration for the first time since his taking office. You have to look halfway down to the right side of the page to find the first Trump smear for change. Sad that it takes a lot of people getting killed for them to report news. Give them a day, they'll have this linked to Trump and it'll be his fault.


2017-10-02 9:27 AM
in reply to: mdg2003

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Subject: RE: Vegas
Well that didn't take long. Apparently the NRA shares some of the blame here, - http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/02/us/las-vegas-shooting-live?lf-content...
2017-10-02 10:12 AM
in reply to: mdg2003

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Subject: RE: Vegas

Some people are just bat chit crazy.  Unreal.

2017-10-02 11:01 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Vegas
Sooooooo predictable,

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/10/02/las-vegas-shooting-clint... .


Sad to see this being politicized. This is nothing more than bat shiite crazy. Pretty calculating and well planned, but still nutzo. Socio/psychopath doing what they do best. Somehow the NRA is at fault and the link to Trump accepting NRA donations is coming next. Someone needs to explain to Hilarry that a silencer would not have made this deadlier, but most likely the opposite.
2017-10-02 11:27 AM
in reply to: mdg2003

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Subject: RE: Vegas
Originally posted by mdg2003

Well that didn't take long. Apparently the NRA shares some of the blame here, - http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/02/us/las-vegas-shooting-live?lf-content...


That link in no longer showing hillarrys tweet. Here it is -

https://twitter.com/hillaryclinton/status/914853465926639618
2017-10-04 6:31 AM
in reply to: mdg2003

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Subject: RE: Vegas

My prediction out of all this is that bump-stocks will be made illegal and politicians will feel good about themselves.

This shooting is very weird because it doesn't fit the normal M.O. we're used to with mass shootings.  They're typically a bullied isolated teenager or religious nut job type perpetrators.  This guy was a very successful (at least at one time) multimillionaire.

He was also a pilot and paid cash for the same type of plane that I fly and had several interactions with people I know.  I'm involved in a type owner club for the plane I fly and there's quite a discussion about him and how people knew him.  He did seem to be a little eccentric in that he owned a 90 unit apartment building, but lived in one of the apartments.  They estimated he was worth around $50M, but had some bad investments over the years that hurt him pretty bad.  He apparently hated California because of the high taxes and how much they "robbed" him.
He would also avoid flying around any major cities because he never wanted to talk to Air Traffic Control (the government).

Obviously we don't know his motives yet, but he seems like he was a bit paranoid about things even going back several years.  Did he just snap, or did he lose everything and find himself unable to deal with it. 

No matter what, he's an absolute coward and the senseless loss of life makes me angry.  

My hero of the event is the guy holding a beer flipping off the shooter while he was shooting at him.  Nothing says America like a Beer toting veteran telling a shooter F.U. 



2017-10-04 8:26 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Vegas

So if we can have a serious civil conversation about this...

Why do people need rifles?  I would say the exception is a rancher living on the fringes of yosemite, or in alaska...

2017-10-04 8:50 AM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Vegas

Originally posted by dmiller5

So if we can have a serious civil conversation about this...

Why do people need rifles?  I would say the exception is a rancher living on the fringes of yosemite, or in alaska...

Valid question and it's best understood when you compare it to other constitutional rights.  For example why does a person need to be able to say vile things during a protest?  There are many things I detest and would love to ban people from saying, but they have a constitutional right to say them and are protected in saying them.  There are certain limitations on free speech (yelling fire in a theater) but people have the constitutional right to be mean and hateful.
With guns, there are all types of guns and people have the constitutional right to own anything from a BB gun to a tank.  Many people don't like people owning rifles, but they are protected by the constitution so it doesn't really matter.  There are certain limitations on the 2nd Amendment such as I can't own a nuclear weapon but generally speaking individuals in America have the constitutionally protected right to own rifles.

Obviously as individuals we can choose to own guns or not and there's nothing wrong with that.  I can choose to protest or I can choose to not protest as well. 
We can talk about utility of owning rifles for hunting, target shooting, impressing redneck girls, etc but it really doesn't matter because it's not about establishing a "need" to own a certain type of rifle.

Historically, America is a little "different" in our attitude towards guns because we were founded by the use of those very guns by the people.  The 2nd amendment works because it’s not about hunting, self defense, it’s about protecting people from their government we learned this lesson when we were subjects of the British. This is where the 3rd, 4th, and 5th amendments came from too. They came from the British seizing guns , property, and imprisoning people with no due process, and forcing people to quarter British soldiers.
It certainly is a valid argument to say we don't have the same need for the 2nd Amendment today as we did when our country was founded, but what that really means is we as citizens would be choosing to empower and entrust the Government through Police and Military to be the only ones armed.  (ignoring criminals for now)
We've seen time and time again throughout history that when citizens are disarmed bad things happen to countries.

I know I'm probably not answering your question, but giving you a little more background on why it's not about "needing" rifles.

2017-10-04 8:54 AM
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Subject: RE: Vegas
Originally posted by dmiller5

So if we can have a serious civil conversation about this...

Why do people need rifles?  I would say the exception is a rancher living on the fringes of yosemite, or in alaska...




Absolutely. I live on the fringe of San Antonio. We just bought 9.5 acres and I intend to purchase a pump .410 to keep in our barn for popping snakes. Not the job for a rifle, so at 55 years of age, I've never owned and still don't need a rifle. Thing is. my little .410 could be modified and using the correct ammunition, evolve into an assault weapon that would work better in close quarters than a rifle.

I inherited a 12 ga. shotgun. It's too much gun for what I want, so it will continue to gather dust in the attic.. What I'm getting at is firearms are like tools. When used as intended, each type and caliber are pretty task specific. One thing is common, they will all kill. I don't buy the 'I need an AK-47 to defend my family' argument so much. Now tell me you bought the AK to shoot varmint or hogs that are so prevalent and destructive on South Texas farms. I get it. I've never felt threatened in my home to the point where I would feel the need to arm myself to protect the 'castle.' I have a co-worker that does. He has a CCL and the only time he doesn't have his sidearm is when he's at work ( TSA frowns on this ) or in a gun free zone. He avoids air travel because he can't conceal carry in a lot of states. He vacations via automobile and brings at least two to three guns with him. Always obeying the laws of the state he visits and usually keeping the guns in the trunk and ammo under the front seat. Ironically enough, as a rabid 2A guy, he's afraid of getting into an active shooter situation and being unarmed!

So, all guns can kill people. Selecting specific types of guns to ban is silly because they can all kill people. We certainly can't ban all firearms because the barn door has been open since 1776 and there's no way you're going to collect them all. Even if they did, just like drugs, all they will have done is created a new black market where all the players are still armed.

It doesn't work anyway. Look at Chicago. Serious gun laws there. Look at the gun crime rate. Pretty high when stacked against the rest of the country. There isn't an answer to this problem. Our politicians politicizing it won't fix it either. All it will do is give some folks a warm fuzzy feeling that their elected official is working to solve the problem.

Do I need the .410 when I can certainly kill a snake with a garden hoe. Do you want your wife or kid taking on a 5 foot rattler with a garden hoe or from 15 feet away and a small bore shotgun? I have the constitutional right to provide my wife with the .410. Do I need? Debatable, but I want to keep her more than arms length away. My wife got bit by a coral snake in our garage about 8-9 years ago, so I'm not imagining a threat here. Because of the anti venom she was administered, if she gets bit again, by anything, she'll likely die before we can get her to the hospital this time.

Edited by mdg2003 2017-10-04 9:04 AM
2017-10-04 9:06 AM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Vegas

Another thing I'll add David.  So many people blame the guns and want to "fix" the guns all the while ignoring the actual core issues.  Gun deaths are a symptom of a far greater problem, they're not the cause.

There's no question that mass shootings have increased, but it's not because gun's are more available.  Guns are, in fact, far less available to everyone.  I'm not that old, but when I was in High School in the 80's there were always dozens of pickups in the parking lot with gun racks loaded with rifles and shotguns.  Usually the windows were open and the cars were unlocked.  We even made gun racks in shop class in school because it simply was a non-issue back then.  So, I ask you what is different?  Is it different today because people have easier access to guns?  Of course not, it's because people have changed. 

What is the true issue?  It's much deeper and has to do with our society as a whole.  Back in the 60's we changed our course as a nation to become more "progressive" and turned our backs on foundational morality and responsibility.  We don't hold up family as being in institution worth fighting for, we turn our backs on God and faith in general, we worship at the alter of the almighty dollar and ignore our kids in the process.  The school system in turn teaches our children that as long as whatever we're doing feels good they should do it.  They give our kids a trophy for participation because they don't want them to experience failure.  I'm missing about 500 other things, but the general gist of it is that people have changed and we have not been taught how to fail, and how to deal with failing.

Every mass shooter has a different reason for doing what they do, but it typically boils down to an isolated person who doesn't know how to properly function in the real world.  This guy is kind of an odd duck because he was obviously much older and at some point in time had great wealth and success, yet he was still "off".  Could it be that he couldn't deal with losing it and just snapped, or are there other issues?  Either way, it's not the access to guns that caused this tragedy it's a broken person that did it.  He could have rented a Ryder truck and drove into the crowd and caused just as much carnage.

2017-10-04 9:24 AM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Vegas
Originally posted by dmiller5

So if we can have a serious civil conversation about this...

Why do people need rifles?  I would say the exception is a rancher living on the fringes of yosemite, or in alaska...






1. Self defense.

a. The US government uses drastic austerity measures to keep the country solvent and riots ensue. People come to my house to try to take what I have. I will defend Case de Rogillio against intruders.

b. National disaster of some sort that sets millions of people in starvation/survival mode and people come to eat my horses and dogs.

c. The government collapses and we are invaded ala Red Dawn

d. The US government tries to dis-arm me and take all my gun I will stage my own Waco Branch Davidian resistance.


2. Big game hunting - recreation, food, survival.

3. Shooting enjoyment - granted, shooting a 30.06 is expensive, but it is fun to shoot and see if you can hit a target at 1000 meters.

4. Heirloom - I have guns that my granddaddy owned, that my dad inherited and subsequently I inherited.

5. Coyotes. If they ever come for my horses, cats or dogs, I will kill them. I've done some yote hunting after a few neighborhood cats disappeared. We also have kids in our neighborhood. My neighbor killed 3 of them and I guess the pack moved on.


2017-10-04 9:29 AM
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Subject: RE: Vegas

Dave - I can only answer from my perspective.  I was raised hunting.  My dad and Grandpa started taking me when I was 7 years old.  I can't imagine a life without rifles.  I say that just to show how wide apart our opinions are.  For reference, I own MANY more guns than that azzhole in Las Vegas owned.  Most of the guys I run with are the same.  We build rifles, load our own ammo, and just generally like to shoot.  The funny part about that is I have never considered myself a "gun nut", and I don't know anyone who would describe me that way.  I don't belong to the NRA and I can't imagine why anyone would ever buy a bump fire stock (I have shot rifles equipped with them and recognized immediately that's what Mr. Forkhead was using in Vegas....the cadence is not the same as a full auto).  I say ban them.....and it was a mistake to ever allow them.  I can get behind all kinds of sensible "gun control", and the truth is, we have all kinds of sensible gun control already.  What we lack is people control.

I know I didn't really answer your question of why we need rifles, and as I sit here I don't know if I can in a way you'll understand because you don't have the reference I do.  I need them because they are part of my heritage.  I need them because when I pick some of them up, I am flooded with memories of my Grandpa and the first time I sat in a deer stand with him and watched him shoot it....it's the same for  a shotgun he carried when we hunted ducks and geese.  I learned about life from  him and it has served me well.  That gun was a part of his life and it still connects me to him and the lessons I learned from him.  In about a month I will sit in a deer stand with my 17 year old daughter as she hunts with her great grandpa's rifle......and I will connect her to a man she never met with that rifle.  I'll teach her as he taught me, and most of what she learns will have nothing to do with a rifle, but it's one of the easiest ways I know to teach safety, responsibility, and respect for others, respect for yourself, and respect of laws.....both man made and natural. Those are traits that I've carried with me my entire life, and my children will as well.  99% of the time they won't have a rifle in their hands, like I don't, but those traits are always there.

Not you, or anyone else, can have my rifles.  Don't even think about it.  You can't pass a law that will cause me to turn them in or give them up.  My life is connected to them....generations of my family are connected through them.  I'll fight over it. 



Edited by Left Brain 2017-10-04 9:55 AM
2017-10-04 9:29 AM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Subject: RE: Vegas
Originally posted by Rogillio

Originally posted by dmiller5

So if we can have a serious civil conversation about this...

Why do people need rifles?  I would say the exception is a rancher living on the fringes of yosemite, or in alaska...






We also have kids in our neighborhood. My neighbor killed 3 of them and I guess the pack moved on.



A pack of kids? Dude...
2017-10-04 9:31 AM
in reply to: mdg2003

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Subject: RE: Vegas
Originally posted by mdg2003

Originally posted by Rogillio

Originally posted by dmiller5

So if we can have a serious civil conversation about this...

Why do people need rifles?  I would say the exception is a rancher living on the fringes of yosemite, or in alaska...






We also have kids in our neighborhood. My neighbor killed 3 of them and I guess the pack moved on.



A pack of kids? Dude...


It's a very rough neighborhood!
2017-10-04 9:36 AM
in reply to: mdg2003

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Subject: RE: Vegas

Originally posted by mdg2003
Originally posted by Rogillio
Originally posted by dmiller5

So if we can have a serious civil conversation about this...

Why do people need rifles?  I would say the exception is a rancher living on the fringes of yosemite, or in alaska...

We also have kids in our neighborhood. My neighbor killed 3 of them and I guess the pack moved on.
A pack of kids? Dude...

lol, poor kids

2017-10-04 10:08 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Vegas
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by mdg2003
Originally posted by Rogillio
Originally posted by dmiller5

So if we can have a serious civil conversation about this...

Why do people need rifles?  I would say the exception is a rancher living on the fringes of yosemite, or in alaska...

We also have kids in our neighborhood. My neighbor killed 3 of them and I guess the pack moved on.
A pack of kids? Dude...

lol, poor kids




Wily little bastards tho. Kill three of em and they're smart enough to move on to easier pickings...


2017-10-04 1:37 PM
in reply to: mdg2003

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Subject: RE: Vegas
I am a gun owner, been a skeet shooter since I was a kid and own 3 shotguns. My grandfather had a match-grade 30.06 and enjoyed shooting 1000 yard targets. Dad was in USMC so I would say guns are part of my heritage too, but honestly not such a strong part.

I don't belong to the NRA, mostly, I really don't like their policy of not giving an inch. It has resulted in the default being anything goes, and we end up with these gizmo's like bump fire stocks. Just meant to kill people, no other reason to exist. Most gun owners feel like me, and most gun owners are the most responsible people I know.

And seriously, you guys got guns to fend off the gov'mint? Good luck with those Hellfires shot from a drone at 10,000 feet, your Remington 1100 ain't gonna put up much of a fight on that one. Seriously, I'll just pay my taxes instead.
2017-10-04 3:06 PM
in reply to: Oysterboy

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Subject: RE: Vegas

While what I'm about to mention certainly isn't a need, it's another answer to why some people own guns.  Don't forget about the collectors, mainly military collectors, myself being one of them.  I like old military rifles, mainly Russian, but have a few from a few other countries, too.  Do I own a lot of guns?  Yup.  Do I shoot them much?  Nope.  They stay locked in my gun safe only to be checked periodically that they are staying in good condition, then they come out to be cleaned/maintained and go back in.  My collection is small compared to most milsurp collectors I know but it would likely sound huge compared to the average gun owner. 

My reasons for collecting them?  I like history and like the idea of preserving history.  I like old stuff.  I like the story behind some of the guns. I buy ones I think are appealing to the eye, such as a certain type of wood used for the stock.  Gathering the harder to find ones based on year/arsenal is a challenge.  Am I a gun nut?  No.  Am I ever going to shoot them regularly?  No, but at one time or another over the course of owning them I've shot them all (I think).  I also have a small collection of old American guns that were my father's, grandfather's, or great-grandfather's.  

I own a few 'modern' guns, but milsurp is my 'passion', so to speak.  I have had my concealed carry permit for over a year and haven't carried once, nor do I plan on it.  I have it because I'm allowed to, not because I need to.

2017-10-04 3:09 PM
in reply to: Oysterboy

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Subject: RE: Vegas
Looks like they've made improvements to the bump fire stock. Last time I saw a video on this , it was a fire from the hip gizmo that seemed slower than single pull semi-auto. Did this guy have these on all his guns? I mean, that's a machine gun in the video I just watched and really should be treated as such.
2017-10-04 3:30 PM
in reply to: Oysterboy

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Subject: RE: Vegas

Originally posted by Oysterboy I am a gun owner, been a skeet shooter since I was a kid and own 3 shotguns. My grandfather had a match-grade 30.06 and enjoyed shooting 1000 yard targets. Dad was in USMC so I would say guns are part of my heritage too, but honestly not such a strong part. I don't belong to the NRA, mostly, I really don't like their policy of not giving an inch. It has resulted in the default being anything goes, and we end up with these gizmo's like bump fire stocks. Just meant to kill people, no other reason to exist. Most gun owners feel like me, and most gun owners are the most responsible people I know. And seriously, you guys got guns to fend off the gov'mint? Good luck with those Hellfires shot from a drone at 10,000 feet, your Remington 1100 ain't gonna put up much of a fight on that one. Seriously, I'll just pay my taxes instead.

I am betting there's a near zero percent chance of anyone in our volunteer military or police force turning their guns against citizens.  They'll be fighting on the side of the citizens to overthrow any corrupt government.  We are all the militia

2017-10-04 3:30 PM
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Subject: RE: Vegas
Bump fire has me in youtube looking at gun videos now. Ever hear of the dragons breath round?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8fmhpy0z1U - wtf...





Edited by mdg2003 2017-10-04 3:31 PM


2017-10-04 4:12 PM
in reply to: mdg2003

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Subject: RE: Vegas

Originally posted by mdg2003 Bump fire has me in youtube looking at gun videos now. Ever hear of the dragons breath round? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8fmhpy0z1U- wtf...

hah, that's my shotgun.  I was just shooting it on Sunday. 

Now for the dragon's breath.  Um, I think it's meant for rabbit hunting.  Kill and cook rabbit in one shot?  ;-)

2017-10-04 4:20 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Vegas

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Oysterboy I am a gun owner, been a skeet shooter since I was a kid and own 3 shotguns. My grandfather had a match-grade 30.06 and enjoyed shooting 1000 yard targets. Dad was in USMC so I would say guns are part of my heritage too, but honestly not such a strong part. I don't belong to the NRA, mostly, I really don't like their policy of not giving an inch. It has resulted in the default being anything goes, and we end up with these gizmo's like bump fire stocks. Just meant to kill people, no other reason to exist. Most gun owners feel like me, and most gun owners are the most responsible people I know. And seriously, you guys got guns to fend off the gov'mint? Good luck with those Hellfires shot from a drone at 10,000 feet, your Remington 1100 ain't gonna put up much of a fight on that one. Seriously, I'll just pay my taxes instead.

I am betting there's a near zero percent chance of anyone in our volunteer military or police force turning their guns against citizens.  They'll be fighting on the side of the citizens to overthrow any corrupt government.  We are all the militia

I don't think Cliven Bundy and his clan would agree with this. 

2017-10-04 4:28 PM
in reply to: Bob Loblaw

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Subject: RE: Vegas

Originally posted by Bob Loblaw

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Oysterboy I am a gun owner, been a skeet shooter since I was a kid and own 3 shotguns. My grandfather had a match-grade 30.06 and enjoyed shooting 1000 yard targets. Dad was in USMC so I would say guns are part of my heritage too, but honestly not such a strong part. I don't belong to the NRA, mostly, I really don't like their policy of not giving an inch. It has resulted in the default being anything goes, and we end up with these gizmo's like bump fire stocks. Just meant to kill people, no other reason to exist. Most gun owners feel like me, and most gun owners are the most responsible people I know. And seriously, you guys got guns to fend off the gov'mint? Good luck with those Hellfires shot from a drone at 10,000 feet, your Remington 1100 ain't gonna put up much of a fight on that one. Seriously, I'll just pay my taxes instead.

I am betting there's a near zero percent chance of anyone in our volunteer military or police force turning their guns against citizens.  They'll be fighting on the side of the citizens to overthrow any corrupt government.  We are all the militia

I don't think Cliven Bundy and his clan would agree with this. 

Probably should have said unlawfully turning their guns against citizens.  If I recall Bundy's stuff was going through the courts and he didn't like the outcome.  That's not going to end well.

2017-10-04 4:52 PM
in reply to: tuwood


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Subject: RE: Vegas
My post here is going to sound negative, so I am sorry.

You can't solve this by taking the guns. I know after mass killings in the past, people pushed for stronger background checks, and not selling guns to whackos. I sure agree with this, but the problem is, it isn't stopping the killing. In the case of Sandy Hook, the mentally ill kid broke into a gun safe to get the guns to kill. Meaning, the person who passed all the checks (his mother) wasn't the one doing the killing. In the case of Vegas, unless something significant surfaces about this guy, it appears by all indications that no one saw this coming. None of the traditional triggers, like terrorism, loss of job, divorce, whatever it is that makes someone put their psycho hat on.

Guns are just a method, albeit a convenient one. They are deadly efficient. But let's just say for a minute that the government takes the guns. Just hypothetically. After about 10,000 people die in the collection of these guns, (who, by the way, is going to walk up to some guys door and say, "sir, we're just gonna need all your rifles and shotguns here, will that be OK?) what will we accomplish? Psychopaths will just choose another method. Remember all the recent attacks where someone drove a vehicle into a crowd of people? How about the homemade bombs? Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people without ever firing a shot. The 2 people at the Boston Marathon used pressure cookers to make bombs. We have sickos who run through crowds swinging machetes. Someone bent on creating a mass casualty situation will find a way, and that sounds so hopeless. I don't have the answer. I know even way back at Columbine, those 2 kids were trying to make propane bombs.

Something in this country has fundamentally changed. We are missing something. Tolerance is such a cool thing that we brag about. We are all so warm and fuzzy. Doesn't everyone have 150 "real" friends on Facebook? Yet we quite possibly could be the most divided country on earth. I don't know why all these killings happen. Perhaps evil just feeds on evil. In the end, is it even possible to have security?
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