General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Newton Running Shoe's Rss Feed  
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2007-06-05 3:09 PM
in reply to: #830979

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Subject: RE: Newton Running Shoe's
amiine - 2007-06-05 3:01 PM

If people want a cheap solution to improve their running stride and economy they should just run MORE to improve cadence, aerobic base and ultimately speed.

That or you can join the madness of hundreds of Tri-geeks, spend $175.00 and exhibit your same stride to look at least pretty with flashy expensive shoes



Now, now, Jorge. You should know me well enough to know that I don't buy speed, I earn it .

I haven't even remotley concluded these shoe's will make me run faster or more efficiently. I already do that, so my analysis of this is going to be very critical because if they have no benefit, they won't be on my feet in Kona in October, regardless of any flash factor. I work too hard for that nonsense.


2007-06-05 4:15 PM
in reply to: #830996

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Subject: RE: Newton Running Shoe's
I don't mind a little flash here and there, but I am only interested in how these shoes perform. Is there something to them? Do they actually give you some added benefit? I am really excited that Bryan has a chance to run in them. It will be a TRUE test on how they perform from someone who already is a pretty damn good triathlete.
2007-06-05 4:26 PM
in reply to: #830979

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Subject: RE: Newton Running Shoe's
amiine - 2007-06-05 1:01 PM If people want a cheap solution to improve their running stride and economy they should just run MORE to improve cadence, aerobic base and ultimately speed.

That or you can join the madness of hundreds of Tri-geeks, spend $175.00 and exhibit your same stride to look at least pretty with flashy expensive shoes

Anybody that knows me, knows I couldn't care less about flash or speed. But as my race distances are geting longer and longer, I would like to have my original knees when I finally quit this sport.

2007-06-05 4:33 PM
in reply to: #830996

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Subject: RE: Newton Running Shoe's
bryancd - 2007-06-05 3:09 PM
amiine - 2007-06-05 3:01 PM If people want a cheap solution to improve their running stride and economy they should just run MORE to improve cadence, aerobic base and ultimately speed.

That or you can join the madness of hundreds of Tri-geeks, spend $175.00 and exhibit your same stride to look at least pretty with flashy expensive shoes

Now, now, Jorge. You should know me well enough to know that I don't buy speed, I earn it . I haven't even remotley concluded these shoe's will make me run faster or more efficiently. I already do that, so my analysis of this is going to be very critical because if they have no benefit, they won't be on my feet in Kona in October, regardless of any flash factor. I work too hard for that nonsense.

My post was in reference of what I've seen so far at races. You see those shoes everywhere; still I think is more due to the bling factor rather than because of a real benefit provided by the shoe. My guess is that you’ll hardly see any benefit that a good racing flat can provide you but let’s us know how they work or not.

2007-06-05 4:36 PM
in reply to: #831180

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Subject: RE: Newton Running Shoe's

Anybody that knows me, knows I couldn't care less about flash or speed. But as my race distances are geting longer and longer, I would like to have my original knees when I finally quit this sport.

and running shoes will help how exaclty? BTW, running don't damage your knees, inefficient training and bad running mechanics might though...

2007-06-05 4:48 PM
in reply to: #831193

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Subject: RE: Newton Running Shoe's
amiine - 2007-06-05 2:36 PM

Anybody that knows me, knows I couldn't care less about flash or speed. But as my race distances are geting longer and longer, I would like to have my original knees when I finally quit this sport.

and running shoes will help how exaclty? BTW, running don't damage your knees, inefficient training and bad running mechanics might though...

Well, that is why I was trying to change my running style as well. From whay I was told, the new running style and the shoes compliment each other. So far it has worked for me. But like I said, is it the more efficient style or the shoes? I don't know 

And as far as the bling factor goes, I think they are the ugliest shoes I have ever seen. So I definitely didn't buy them to impress anyone



Edited by madcow 2007-06-05 4:50 PM


2007-06-05 5:18 PM
in reply to: #831188

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Subject: RE: Newton Running Shoe's
amiine - 2007-06-05 4:33 PM

bryancd - 2007-06-05 3:09 PM
amiine - 2007-06-05 3:01 PM If people want a cheap solution to improve their running stride and economy they should just run MORE to improve cadence, aerobic base and ultimately speed.

That or you can join the madness of hundreds of Tri-geeks, spend $175.00 and exhibit your same stride to look at least pretty with flashy expensive shoes

Now, now, Jorge. You should know me well enough to know that I don't buy speed, I earn it . I haven't even remotley concluded these shoe's will make me run faster or more efficiently. I already do that, so my analysis of this is going to be very critical because if they have no benefit, they won't be on my feet in Kona in October, regardless of any flash factor. I work too hard for that nonsense.

My post was in reference of what I've seen so far at races. You see those shoes everywhere; still I think is more due to the bling factor rather than because of a real benefit provided by the shoe. My guess is that you’ll hardly see any benefit that a good racing flat can provide you but let’s us know how they work or not.



You can guess, I'm going to know. I think you have been hanging around Paulo too much .

Jorge, you sound pre-disposed to dismiss Newton's as a gimmick. I can understand that, I felt the same way. Hopefully you actually read my initial post where I acknowledge as much. When they showed up on my doorstep the other day, I figured I was well qualified to put them through their paces and share what will be a very subjective experiment. Today, my initial reaction is favorable, not "I just drank the cool-aid" favorable, they seemed to work as advertised at the very least.

Let's qualify benefit a bit, shall we? From the stanpoint of training and racing, their can be mutiple benefits, not all of which are simply speed. I may find my pace is the same given the same effort, but I have less post work out fatigue and faster recovery. Perhaps the bio-mechanical advantage they claim is for real and is not something a traditional shoe can provide. Or maybe simply improving run efficiency, as you said, is all that needs to be done to accomplish the same thing. I'll see and will let you aqll know my unbiased thoughts.

As I have good running economy, these are going to have to really raise the bar for me to bring these to Kona in October. Would a good racing flat provide the same benefit? I think a racing flat would be even quicker but this is a training shoe, so the comparison is flawed.

Edited by bryancd 2007-06-05 5:19 PM
2007-06-06 3:38 PM
in reply to: #831252

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Subject: RE: Newton Running Shoe's

 You can guess, I'm going to know. I think you have been hanging around Paulo too much .

>>> Well I do like to hang out and learn from the best

Jorge, you sound pre-disposed to dismiss Newton's as a gimmick.  I can understand that, I felt the same way. Hopefully you actually read my initial post where I acknowledge as much. When they showed up on my doorstep the other day, I figured I was well qualified to put them through their paces and share what will be a very subjective experiment. Today, my initial reaction is favorable, not "I just drank the cool-aid" favorable, they seemed to work as advertised at the very least.

>>> I am very skeptic of the shoes claims because I don’t see how a running shoe can improve running economy AND there are several examples of elite runners with amazing running economy who aren’t forefoot strikers. 

Let's qualify benefit a bit, shall we? From the stanpoint of training and racing, their can be mutiple benefits, not all of which are simply speed. I may find my pace is the same given the same effort, but I have less post work out fatigue and faster recovery. Perhaps the bio-mechanical advantage they claim is for real and is not something a traditional shoe can provide. Or maybe simply improving run efficiency, as you said, is all that needs to be done to accomplish the same thing. I'll see and will let you aqll know my unbiased thoughts. As I have good running economy, these are going to have to really raise the bar for me to bring these to Kona in October. Would a good racing flat provide the same benefit? I think a racing flat would be even quicker but this is a training shoe, so the comparison is flawed

>>> I don’t know how a running shoe can produce any adaptations to support your above post or even improve economy or efficiency (if you understand what that means) but I wish you well and I hope the shoes provide you with some benefit for your Kona adventure. Just don't go around slacking cuz you have many supporters on BT  Good luck!
2007-06-06 6:07 PM
in reply to: #829543

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Subject: RE: Newton Running Shoe's
I would never let my BT peeps down! And Kona is a mission, not an adventure .

Have you gone to thier web site? For what it's worth, they are a very good marketing company and the information they provide is compelling, although clearly self serving.

Another run on for tomorrow, stay tuned!
2007-06-06 6:08 PM
in reply to: #832865

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Subject: RE: Newton Running Shoe's

Who would you be referring to?  And how do you know they have "amazing running economy"?  Just because someone is fast doesn't mean they are efficient or economical. 

amiine - 2007-06-06 4:38 PM >>> I am very skeptic of the shoes claims because I don’t see how a running shoe can improve running economy AND there are several examples of elite runners with amazing running economy who aren’t forefoot strikers.

2007-06-06 6:28 PM
in reply to: #832865

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Subject: RE: Newton Running Shoe's
...ah, and yes, I do understand what running efficiency and economy mean, thanks little Paulo. And until you pass me on the course, I'll stand by that
You triathlon coaches are all alike.....at least your fast!

Edited by bryancd 2007-06-06 6:32 PM


2007-06-06 6:50 PM
in reply to: #829543

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Subject: RE: Newton Running Shoe's
You talking to me or Jorge?
2007-06-06 6:54 PM
in reply to: #833057

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Subject: RE: Newton Running Shoe's
Who would you be referring to?  >>> the newton website claims

And how do you know they have "amazing running economy"?  >>> simple; an elite runner with a relative low VO2Max compared to other elite runners who is capable of running at the same pace as those with higher values is able to achieve that due to a greater running economy.

Just because someone is fast doesn't mean they are efficient or economical. >>> uuummm yes it does; a fast runner will be fast either because he has running efficiency (higher VO2Max, MLSS, LT etc.) , because he has good running economy (run fast with less energy consumption)

2007-06-06 6:54 PM
in reply to: #829543

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Subject: RE: Newton Running Shoe's
Sorry, Jorge....just bustin his balls a bit, just like I do with Paulo over on SlowBiatch.

In all seriousness, I welcome this debate in this thread as it does get to the root of what Newton is claiming and weather or not that claim has merrit. Let's battle on or it's back to Slowtiwch.com!!!

Edited by bryancd 2007-06-06 6:56 PM
2007-06-06 6:57 PM
in reply to: #833112

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Subject: RE: Newton Running Shoe's
TH3_FRB - 2007-06-06 6:50 PM You talking to me or Jorge?
huh? about what?
2007-06-06 7:01 PM
in reply to: #833120

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Subject: RE: Newton Running Shoe's
amiine - 2007-06-06 6:57 PM

TH3_FRB - 2007-06-06 6:50 PM You talking to me or Jorge?
huh? about what?


No, knucklehead, he thought I was posting a response to him when I was actually talking to you. Come on, Jorge, keep up, brother!

Now, I agree that if one is profficient in their run form and economy (efficiency being more genetic), that they should be able to perfrom as well regardless of the shoe. Perhaps someone less proficient could derive an immediate benefit but they would probably be better off learning how to run properly instead of relying on a shoe somehow.
I don't expect Newton to bring down my 10K splits, which are in the 37min range in an Olympic. I do know myself well enough to know that come mile 13-16 of a marathon or IM run, fatigue can break my form down a bit. If the shoe's design, which really gives me no choice but to stay upright over my feet and land directly beneath me, can help me hold that longer, then it may be of some use. My 3 IMAZ run splits for each 8.2 mile loop was 7:32, 8:03, and 8:32. I know I looked ragged on those last 2 loops. That's where I'm going to be testing these the most, long runs and see how they help hold me together.

Edited by bryancd 2007-06-06 7:10 PM


2007-06-06 7:15 PM
in reply to: #829543

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Coach
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Subject: RE: Newton Running Shoe's
...ah, and yes, I do understand what running efficiency and economy mean, thanks little Paulo. >>> should be offended or flatter?

And until you pass me on the course, I'll stand by that >>> you are on, but just pick a HIM or shorter cuz I don’t do that long distance nonsense, I just coach nuts like you!

2007-06-06 7:19 PM
in reply to: #829543

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Subject: RE: Newton Running Shoe's

Aside from the cost issue, that is the root of the question as to why to pursue the shoes.

I buy into the Zipp hype because I've been around the industry a long time and know what sort of performance they have, but I am not sold on the Newtons.  The unfortunate thing is that I think the only way I could be convinced of their benefit would be to purchase some and give them a shot.

I already use Saucony Fastwitch for racing, which are pretty damn light and relatively minimalist as far as long distance racing shoes (not the superlight 10k shoes per se, but still light in comparison to others).  And even with two marathons on them they still support my feet just fine, which is a testament for good form (I think).

2007-06-06 7:23 PM
in reply to: #833123

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Subject: RE: Newton Running Shoe's
bryancd - 2007-06-06 7:01 PM
amiine - 2007-06-06 6:57 PM
TH3_FRB - 2007-06-06 6:50 PM You talking to me or Jorge?
huh? about what?
No, knucklehead, he thought I was posting a response to him when I was actually talking to you. Come on, Jorge, keep up, brother! Now, I agree that if one is profficient in their run form and economy (efficiency being more genetic), that they should be able to perfrom as well regardless of the shoe. Perhaps someone less proficient could derive an immediate benefit but they would probably be better off learning how to run properly instead of relying on a shoe somehow. I don't expect Newton to bring down my 10K splits, which are in the 37min range in an Olympic. I do know myself well enough to know that come mile 13-16 of a marathon or IM run, fatigue can break my form down a bit. If the shoe's design, which really gives me no choice but to stay upright over my feet and land directly beneath me, can help me hold that longer, then it may be of some use. My 3 IMAZ run splits for each 8.2 mile loop was 7:32, 8:03, and 8:32. I know I looked ragged on those last 2 loops. That's where I'm going to be testing these the most, long runs and see how they help hold me together.

Duh, that's what happens when I post while eating! Anyway, I am sure your testing of the shoes will be unbiased as you are training for a very important race I can't see you risking your training at all. My OP was more directed to beginners (which is the bulk of this site) as a tongue in chick post suggesting that someone running 8-9 min per mile for a 5-10K for instance good old fashion training (hard work and consistency) will yield more returns than a piece of equipment. (Same with aero wheels, etc)

2007-06-06 7:32 PM
in reply to: #833139

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Subject: RE: Newton Running Shoe's

I agree 100% but that doesn't mean form and efficiency should be ignored in order to work harder.  Assuming these shoes actually live up to the claims (at least to some degree) and promote correct foot strike and overall running form (and people can afford them) then I see no reason not to give them a try, especially for the less developed runner. It's kind of like saying beginner swimmers shouldn't use a wetsuit as a means to improve body position and balance in the water because they should be developing that through more focused technique and drill work in the pool. I'm not suggesting that everyone shouldn't be striving for better form and technique in all 3 sports but if there is a product that helps promote the necessary changes then go for it. I personally will train the smartest I can and buy as much speed and efficiency as I can on top of that. I've got a couple pairs of Newtons on the way for evaluation...at a discount

amiine - 2007-06-06 8:23 PM

My OP was more directed to beginners (which is the bulk of this site) as a tongue in chick post suggesting that someone running 8-9 min per mile for a 5-10K for instance good old fashion training (hard work and consistency) will yield more returns than a piece of equipment. (Same with aero wheels, etc)

2007-06-06 8:12 PM
in reply to: #833162

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Coach
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Subject: RE: Newton Running Shoe's

True, and I hope it does work at some degree for those with poor running mechanics, but again my hard head can't process how the shoe will actually accomplish that.  Anyway, for guys like you and Bryan, well, I sure hope they DON'T work, otherwise you two will be scary fast!

TH3_FRB - 2007-06-06 7:32 PM

I agree 100% but that doesn't mean form and efficiency should be ignored in order to work harder.  Assuming these shoes actually live up to the claims (at least to some degree) and promote correct foot strike and overall running form (and people can afford them) then I see no reason not to give them a try, especially for the less developed runner. It's kind of like saying beginner swimmers shouldn't use a wetsuit as a means to improve body position and balance in the water because they should be developing that through more focused technique and drill work in the pool. I'm not suggesting that everyone shouldn't be striving for better form and technique in all 3 sports but if there is a product that helps promote the necessary changes then go for it. I personally will train the smartest I can and buy as much speed and efficiency as I can on top of that. I've got a couple pairs of Newtons on the way for evaluation...at a discount

amiine - 2007-06-06 8:23 PM

My OP was more directed to beginners (which is the bulk of this site) as a tongue in chick post suggesting that someone running 8-9 min per mile for a 5-10K for instance good old fashion training (hard work and consistency) will yield more returns than a piece of equipment. (Same with aero wheels, etc)



2007-06-06 8:31 PM
in reply to: #829543

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Subject: RE: Newton Running Shoe's
I'm counting on that extra 15% energy return. I've been feeling a bit sluggish on the run lately
2007-06-07 5:55 AM
in reply to: #833139

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Subject: RE: Newton Running Shoe's

amiine - 2007-06-06 8:23 PM  My OP was more directed to beginners (which is the bulk of this site) as a tongue in chick post suggesting that someone running .......

Dude!!!  This is a beginners site and a family one!!  There will be none of that here on a public forum!!

2007-06-07 5:57 AM
in reply to: #833555

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Subject: RE: Newton Running Shoe's
2007-06-07 7:28 AM
in reply to: #833555

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Subject: RE: Newton Running Shoe's
Daremo - 2007-06-07 5:55 AM

amiine - 2007-06-06 8:23 PM  My OP was more directed to beginners (which is the bulk of this site) as a tongue in chick post suggesting that someone running .......

Dude!!!  This is a beginners site and a family one!!  There will be none of that here on a public forum!!



LOL!!!!! I missed that one!! Good one, Rick!
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