General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Chi Running/Pose Method Running/Barefoot/whatever Rss Feed  
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2007-08-23 11:59 PM

Member
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Orange County
Subject: Chi Running/Pose Method Running/Barefoot/whatever
Hey everybody,

first, I'd like to apologize if my subject line was asked about here before. I'm kinda lazy like that

Secondly, I have a question for the triathletes (and well, runners too) out there that have switched to this/these method(s) of running, since I think I'm going to make the switch, starting tomorrow. I have already tried running "toe-heel" style (instead of the conventional "heel-toe" like in walking) a few times around the block, and I've found that it's easier to accelerate with this method, not to mention that I can go farther before my (lack of) aerobic endurance catches up with me

I went to the Pose Tech website, and in the "How to Choose a Running Shoe" section (http://posetech.com/pose_method/running-shoes.html), and the two concepts they stated were:
1. The shoes should be light
2.The shoes should have thin soles

This makes sense, seeing as how in my running shoes (that I bought from a Running Store, btw) are ill-suited to this running style. They're high-arch, neutral cushion shoes, and there is an extremely thick layer of cushion in the heel compared to the midsole and toe areas. Of course, when I tested it in my Chuck Taylor Hi-Top knock-offs...well, it worked pretty well, actually! Chucks feel like sandals disguised as sneakers/tennis shoes. Their soles are 100% FLAT (and flexible), thin, and don't feel at all cushioned. Plus, since they have canvas coverings, they're very lightweight. That explains why my Chucks catered so well when I experimented with the "barefoot, but with shoes" style of running, I guess. Keep in mind that I sized my Chucks the same way I sized my "real" running shoes, with only a thumb's width distance between the toes and the end of the shoe.

Um, anybody try running with Chucks? That was my original question. I can't afford Newtons right now, or Vibram Five Fingers.

Oh well, I'll see how the Chucks handle on a real training run.


2007-08-24 7:00 AM
in reply to: #938607

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Runner
Subject: RE: Chi Running/Pose Method Running/Barefoot/whatever

First off;

Chucks are NOT running shoes, they are not MEANT to be used as running shoes.  You could very possibly injure yourself that way.  Additionally, the Five-Fingers and Frees are not meant to be used ALL the time, especially by someone who hasn't built up to it.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with using modern running shoes.  You just need the RIGHT shoe.

Secondly, any particular reason you are suddenly looking at these running techniques?  Are you suffering chronic injuries?  Has someone like a coach or doctor told you that your stride and body mechanics need to be improved?  If not, then don't worry about it.

These techniques are NOT shortcuts to getting faster.  Period.  If you follow them, they still take time for A) Your body to adapt to the new techniques; B) Your endurance to increase.  Plain and simple, if you want to get faster, shoes and fancy-named styles aren't going to do it for you.  You need to go out there and put in mileage.  You want to know why the hardest Age Groups to win are the 30s and 40s?  Because those guys and gals have been doing this endurance thing for years, they have put in their miles, and they have a tremendous aerobic base to build off of.  Since you have nothing in your logs, I cannot tell you what you need to be doing, other than running more.  Don't worry about intervals, don't worry about cadence, or stride length.  Go out and run at LEAST 3-4 times per week, every week.  Start by doing a couple miles every run, and then the next week, add another mile.  Once you can get yourself up to 20-25 miles per week, come back and look at things again.

2007-08-24 7:18 AM
in reply to: #938665

Champion
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South Jersey
Subject: RE: Chi Running/Pose Method Running/Barefoot/whatever
I agree with Scout. Go to a running store that will analyze your gait, etc., and will make the recommendation for the best running shoe for you. Then, RUN. Run frequently, but start easy and increase your volume slowly. Your running form will eventually fall into place to what is most efficient for YOU. All our bodies are different, and there's no form out there that works for everyone. Just remember, improvements don't happen overnight. It takes a lot of consistency, hard work, and patience.
2007-08-24 7:41 AM
in reply to: #938607

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Crystal Lake, IL
Subject: RE: Chi Running/Pose Method Running/Barefoot/whatever

I mostly agree with Scout but want to emphasize two things.

1.  When he says don't worry about blah blah blah and just run more he's assuming that you haven't been advised by a qualified person to change to these running techniques to help with injury or correct stride issues.  He said that earlier in his post but I thought it was worth stating again.

2.  He says run a couple of miles at a time and then add a mile to that the next week.  That could be interpreted as adding 50% in one week and I think the gist of what he's saying (if I may put words in his mouth) is gradually add a distance that feels comfortable.  Many people go by the 10% rule, but I haven't followed that exactly and just gone by what feels right.  The important thing is to build volume safely at this stage.

Very early in my running which started 2 years ago I read about Pose/Chi/Evo running and used what little I learned to incorporate some basics into my running stride and I've done okay with it.  I don't think you have to hard core go one way or the other on this.  The desired result is a smooth and efficient stride that will avoid injury.  However YOU as an individual need to get there is what is important.  What works for one may not work for another.   Get the right shoe for you and gradually increase your mileage as you experiment with different strides.  You will find what works for you and if you don't, then maybe you should consult a coach.  But I think that's down the road a bit.

2007-08-24 7:57 AM
in reply to: #938704

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Runner
Subject: RE: Chi Running/Pose Method Running/Barefoot/whatever
hangloose - 2007-08-24 8:41 AM

2. He says run a couple of miles at a time and then add a mile to that the next week. That could be interpreted as adding 50% in one week and I think the gist of what he's saying (if I may put words in his mouth) is gradually add a distance that feels comfortable. Many people go by the 10% rule, but I haven't followed that exactly and just gone by what feels right. The important thing is to build volume safely at this stage.

Yes, those are correct words.  I was being fairly general in my comments as I had so many, and figured clarification would come out either through myself or someone else, or through answering questions.

The bold statement is the gist of our comments, though. 

2007-08-24 8:14 AM
in reply to: #938607

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Regular
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Hopewell, New Jersey
Subject: RE: Chi Running/Pose Method Running/Barefoot/whatever
I have used Pose for a few years now and can't say enough good things about it. Changed my athletic career.


2007-08-24 8:19 AM
in reply to: #938607

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Expert
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Madison, MS
Subject: RE: Chi Running/Pose Method Running/Barefoot/whatever

Here's some things that I've learned working with my coach as well as watching her work with others on their running:

  1. To bring yourself into a more efficient running alignment, lean forward as if you were falling (don't bend at the waist). At that point where it feels as though you would fall is the "right" position. It's almost imperceptible, but helps to align shoulders with hips with feet and helps to prevent a too forward foot strike. Watch videos of successful distance runners and look for that alignment.
  2. Use your arms. This is a biggie for a lot of folks...particularly myself. Arms should be bent up to approximately waist level (where your thumb brushes the bottom of your ribcage). They should move freely back and forth, but not across the body. They should come about heart high. Chicken elbows are okay. Want to run faster? Move your arms faster. When you start getting tired on a run, concentrate on your arms, your legs will follow.
  3. Foot cadence. The most efficient runners have a foot strike cadence of 90 or higher per minute.

None of these things takes any special shoes, equipment, or significant adjustment to your biomechanically specific running style (we're all different).

The way to improve technique is just like swimming: do drills. After an easy run, go to a smooth grassy field, and practice.

  1. Jog a few steps then lean (or as coach says, "fall, fall, fall" for about 25 yds as you run. And, if you can, go ahead and do this barefoot (also good for strengthening your feet).
  2. During a run, every 10 minutes, do 1 minute of exaggerated arm swing.
  3. On an easy day, in the middle of your run, do deliberate high cadence running for 20-30 seconds a few times (with a minute between each). Count how many steps one foot takes during that span, multiply by 3 or 2...try to get to 90 steps or better.

Practicing these will translate to better technique, especially as you learn to focus on and incorporate them into your regular running.

And I agree with the others. The most important thing for shoes is that they are the right ones for you. Newtons, I have heard, tend to be fine for biomechanically efficient runners, but may not work as well for those with moderate to severe pronation (however, that's hearsay). Anyway, also keep in mind that your shoe requirements may change over time, so don't just stick with the same shoe year after year. Have a pro do a thorough gait analysis every so often...not just once.

2007-08-24 8:38 AM
in reply to: #938762

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Runner
Subject: RE: Chi Running/Pose Method Running/Barefoot/whatever
kvesey - 2007-08-24 9:19 AM
  1. Foot cadence. The most efficient runners have a foot strike cadence of 90 or higher per minute.

Not always true.  Additionally, most runners are already within 10% of 90 as it is.  Stride frequency is a small part of the equation, and the body tends to gravitate to the most efficient number for itself on its own.

If you want to work on leg turnover, run downhills, approximately 1-3% grade.  You will develop a faster turnover.  To work stride length, which is a greater determinant of speed, run uphills.

Of course, I wouldn't worry about any of those things until you are running more consistently, and more miles. 

2007-08-24 9:37 AM
in reply to: #938607

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Tacoma, Washington
Subject: RE: Chi Running/Pose Method Running/Barefoot/whatever
Eastbay has Nike Waffle Racers for $25... I've raced (and done some trail runs) on these, and find them very comfy. Be aware that they are cut out under the arch, so if you tend to collapse your arch (flat-footed, though with toe/forefoot running that usually isn't a concern) then these might not be the shoes for you. Worth taking a look, any way.
2007-08-24 9:46 AM
in reply to: #938895

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Orange County
Subject: RE: Chi Running/Pose Method Running/Barefoot/whatever
briderdt - 2007-08-24 7:37 AM

Eastbay has Nike Waffle Racers for $25... I've raced (and done some trail runs) on these, and find them very comfy. Be aware that they are cut out under the arch, so if you tend to collapse your arch (flat-footed, though with toe/forefoot running that usually isn't a concern) then these might not be the shoes for you. Worth taking a look, any way.


Thanks for the shoe rec. And to the poster who talked about Newtons, I already stated in my original post that I don't have the money for them

The reason I'm changing my running style is because running "toe-heel" rather than "heel-toe" feels a lot more comfortable for my legs right now, and it feels more efficient too. I'll take the advice as noted, but my "real" running shoes aren't very good for running this method at all.
2007-08-24 10:52 AM
in reply to: #938910

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Crystal Lake, IL
Subject: RE: Chi Running/Pose Method Running/Barefoot/whatever

DBear - 2007-08-24 9:46 AM I'll take the advice as noted, but my "real" running shoes aren't very good for running this method at all.

My guess would be that it might be the shoe, but not the style of shoe.  I've run 135 miles this month in exactly the kind of shoes you describe (standard running shoes) and my feet feel fine.  I think you just need to find the right ones for you.



2007-08-24 11:27 PM
in reply to: #938607

Member
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Orange County
Subject: RE: Chi Running/Pose Method Running/Barefoot/whatever
I was kind of afraid to hear that. I got these shoes from the running store when I first started out running and had no concept of strides, pronation, etc. So I ended up with a $118 pair of shoes that I figured would last me quite a while. They aren't, because my legs complain when I try to run in them now

I mean, initially they were great for running, and the running shop guy did give me the right shoes for what I was doing at the time. Then I started hating the running style I was doing, because I ended up getting more and more shin splints the further I pushed myself. It's really annoying when your aerobic capacity is building, but you can't push further because of your shins. Shin splints weren't my only problem either. I just didn't feel like I was really getting anywhere with it.

I like the barefoot style. Sure, my calves hurt like the dickens after the workouts are over, but I feel like I'm flying without putting much effort into it. Compared to the normal style I run with shoes on, there really is NO comparison. Faster, no pain in the shins, no pain in the knees, and I could go much farther than I could with the old.

I guess I'm going to find some large grass fields to run barefoot in until I can afford some Newtons.
2007-08-25 2:01 PM
in reply to: #939947

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Laurium, MI
Subject: RE: Chi Running/Pose Method Running/Barefoot/whatever

First off, I am a mid foot striker.  Can't say I'm pose, or chi or any other 'method'.  I just run so that my foot contacts the ground square under my hips and I maintain a vertical body position.  Switching to this position from being a heel striker sloved quite a bit of issues with hip pain, but I went through horrible shin splints when I first switched because I did not drop my volume enough.

Be carefull about ditching motion control shoes for fancy 'barefoot' shoes like newtons. Even though with mid-foot and fore-foot striking, you don't actually use a lot of the motion control crap in the heel, stability shoes have a much stiffer main beam (part that runs down the middle of the shoe).  This gives the overall shoe better torsional rigidity.  You can actually pronate at different places through your stride, not just on impact.  If you are a person that is having pronation problems later in the stride, you still need that stiffer sole to keep the pronation under control (even though you aren't using the fancy heel technology).

So, in short I wouldn't be doing a ton of training in newtons or frees until you have an actual gait analysis and know what your stride mechanics are like, how much support you need, and where you need that support.  Different brands use different stability tech, which lend them better to certain types of pronation.  A good running store will be able to analyze your gait and suggest particular shoes, then work with you until you are sure theyare right.  You can work on changing your gate without fancy shoes. 

2007-08-25 2:58 PM
in reply to: #938607

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Master
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Harvard, Illinois
Subject: RE: Chi Running/Pose Method Running/Barefoot/whatever

If you want a shoe to help you mimic barefoot running go and get some water shoes. I just picked up two pairs for $2.00 each. When I can't go barefoot I will be running exclusively in these.

The reason why your legs are sore after running barefoot is the fact that you are teaching your muscles something new. Don't push it when you run barefoot. You can easily break your legs. You have to allow your muscles to adjust and you have to allow your bones to become more dense. I can't stress it enough, you can and will break your legs if you do to much to quickly on a hard surface. If you run on grass that is a different story. You can up your mileage a little bit more quickly.

When I run on a trail I wear the water shoes and they feel fine and my legs feel fine. When I run on pavement I wear the Nike Free. I like them and they are light.

During your experimentation to find the right shoe and style of running remember to allow your body to adjust. You can easily injure yourself.

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