General Discussion Triathlon Talk » would you vote to change the swim length? Rss Feed  
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2007-11-08 3:08 PM
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Subject: RE: would you vote to change the swim length?
run4yrlif - 2007-11-08 2:41 PM

I agree with Bear, with a caveat.

Longer swims would discourage newbies. BUT...I'm all for *championships* having equitable race distances. If you want to determine who the *best* triathlete is, weight all of the disciplines equally. Without doing that, generally speaking, the bests cyclists and runners invariably beat the best swimmers. It'd be extremely interesting to see races in which the swim actually mattered in the outcome of the race.

You know the old saying of how you can lose, but not win the race in the swim? Yeah, I'd like to see that change.



Jim's response is the best idea (I think), to my question. kind of the IROC of triathlons.
For those not familiar with the Interantional Race Of Champions - you set up (say) 30 rce cars in identical form (power, wheels, make, model, etc.), and have the best drivers do their best - like leveling the playing field.
THAT WOULD BE AWESOME!!



2007-11-08 3:31 PM
in reply to: #1044075

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Champion
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Subject: RE: would you vote to change the swim length?
I see I opened a can of worms with my post on this in the other thread...

I don't see it as likely that the proportions will be changed (ever). The difficulty in providing hydration/nutrition for a longer swim has been pointed out. (I do have to say, though, that in 1 1/2 to 2 hour workouts in HS swim I don't really recall myself or my teammates needing to break for hydration...quite vigorous lap training in the pool is energetically equal to running ten minute miles, so I leave it to the individual reader to decide from their own experience how intense a workout two hours lap training=two hours at 10 min/mile is.)

It's worth noting that the IM swim isn't brutalizing the competitors' systems in any way remotely close to the bike or run (which partly explains why iron distance doesn't penalize poor swimmers as much as poor cyclists):

Approx TOTAL cal's burned during IM legs: Swim ~750-900, Bike (at ~17-22 mph) ~5000-6000, Run (at ~6.5-8 mph) ~2500-3200. You'd have to at least triple the swim distance to approximate the energy demands of the marathon run.

(Sorry to hang this on the iron distance...it just makes for easy calculations and the placements of the top pros in each discipline make for interesting comparisons, IMO.)

My own druthers would be proportionally shorter bike leg--right now, triathlon as a sport rewards biking disproportionately...which in turn--to some degree--rewards affluence. Yes, you're nothing without a motor. But motors being equal--and as distances attempted by the athlete increase--then component weight and aero characteristics become major factors...and impacting those can obviously cost more than the price of an entry level road bike. Wetsuits present a similar barrier for some, but the amount of money spent on a good tri wetsuit isn't much more than the cost of just a good aero helmet.
2007-11-08 3:48 PM
in reply to: #1044075

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Elite
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Subject: RE: would you vote to change the swim length?

I vote longer swims for the races I do......   (spint-longsprints -oly). 

but - let the market decide - good idea

2007-11-08 3:58 PM
in reply to: #1044075

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Subject: RE: would you vote to change the swim length?
How about this, 2.4 Mile Swim 40K Bike and a Half Marathon, we could call it the OlyMan?
2007-11-08 4:42 PM
in reply to: #1044075

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Subject: RE: would you vote to change the swim length?
I'd like a 5K swim a whateverdistanceyouwant bike ride (56-112 mi doesn't matter, really).... and a 3 to 5 mile run, please. Pretty pretty please??? Kiss
2007-11-08 4:49 PM
in reply to: #1044163

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Subject: RE: would you vote to change the swim length?
the bear - 2007-11-08 1:23 PM

Seems to me that the biggest deterrent for wannabe triathletes is the swim. Increasing the length of the swim will serve to increase that barrier to entry, and prevent even more beginners from attempting the sport.

Besides, unless none of the discipline distances in sprint races are official or "mandatory" Rather they're dictated by the market, the venue, and the resources of the race director.




I agree, why alienate those that would like to try to do a tri for the first time. Keep ths distances the same.


2007-11-08 5:07 PM
in reply to: #1044550

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Subject: RE: would you vote to change the swim length?
I agree that a longer swim would discourage new athletes. It certainly would have prevented me from trying the sport.

I also agree that the swim is short compared to the other distances. I have thought of many sprints as a warm-up in the water, a bike race and a vigorous running cool-down. Olympics seem about right as is. at least to me.

However, I think the swim should be shortest, in both effort and time. Nutrition is one thing, but cramping and bad preparation and injuries are another. I know you can die if you crash on the bike, but I have to believe the swim is more dangerous already for death. Doubling the distance just increases the risk. Not to mention the logistics in supporting the swim is probably the toughest already for RD's.

2007-11-08 6:34 PM
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Subject: RE: would you vote to change the swim length?
For the 1/2, I think 1 mile is long enough 56 bike is good, and if maybe bump the run up tp 20 miles
2007-11-08 6:34 PM
in reply to: #1044116

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Subject: RE: would you vote to change the swim length?
Fechter99 - 2007-11-08 1:03 PM

As someone brand new to triathlons and training to do my first ever sprint triathlon in July, I think if you doubled the swim distance for the sprint, I probably would not have ever really considered actually competing. I am a fairly strong swimmer and comfortable in the water but the thought of having to swim 1000 yards before biking 14 miles and then running 5k scares the heck out of me.

I think before experienced triathletes petition and vote to extend swim distances, a lot of consideration should go the potential of scaring away prospective triathletes to the sprint distances which could easily happen if you make it seem too intimidating. Swimming a mile to me, right now, is intimidating.

You should also think back to when you first decided to do a triathlon and regardless of the distance, would you have actually done it and be here today?

Just my 2 cents.
Randi


Great point! I totally agree, also being new to multi sport, I already skipped triathlons the first year and did Duathlon JUST becasue of the swim portion, I do plan on doing tri's next season but If the distance were any longer then they already are, I honestly don't think I would have even considered doing a triathlon. I also think this would scare away a LOT of people new to the sport and thats the last thing we want.
2007-11-08 6:56 PM
in reply to: #1044166

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Subject: RE: would you vote to change the swim length?

Nelg - 2007-11-08 2:24 PM The perfect sprint would be: 23 meter swim 25 mile bike 50 yard dash

I'd sign up for that race

Let's make the bike 50 miles instead of 25 though 

Seriously adding distance to swim would be a headache for RDs. Longer time to worry about getting all the swimmers out of the water, greater chance of potential issues; harder for newbies to start doing tris with longer swims being intimidating. 

2007-11-08 9:49 PM
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Subject: RE: would you vote to change the swim length?

gymgirlx - 2007-11-08 6:34 PM For the 1/2, I think 1 mile is long enough 56 bike is good, and if maybe bump the run up tp 20 miles

 

Double the swim and cut the run in half... OK! 

Triple the swim and cut the run in half?? OK!

But bumping the run up to 20 miles??? NOWAYINTHEWORLD.  It's already a runner's race. No sense in giving "them" all the advantages. Surprised



2007-11-08 10:14 PM
in reply to: #1044938

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Subject: RE: would you vote to change the swim length?
Whizzzzz - 2007-11-08 9:49 PM

gymgirlx - 2007-11-08 6:34 PM For the 1/2, I think 1 mile is long enough 56 bike is good, and if maybe bump the run up tp 20 miles

 

Double the swim and cut the run in half... OK! 

Triple the swim and cut the run in half?? OK!

But bumping the run up to 20 miles??? NOWAYINTHEWORLD.  It's already a runner's race. No sense in giving "them" all the advantages. Surprised



Isn't it more of a cyclist's race? Well i guess technically its a swimmer's/cyclist's/and runner's race but it's more of a cyclist's race then the other two.
2007-11-09 4:17 AM
in reply to: #1044075

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Subject: RE: would you vote to change the swim length?
Yes! More Swimming! That being said, I would leave the Sprint and Oly distances as they are. I think the ITU long course (3k/80k/20k) would be a much better race than the HIM.

BTW - does any know of any ITU long course races in 2008?
2007-11-09 8:46 AM
in reply to: #1044075

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Subject: RE: would you vote to change the swim length?
I have to agree with Whizzzz... I am a good swimmer, can hold my own on the bike and then comes the %&^#$ run... A longer swim would benefit me, and it is "all about me" - isn't it?
2007-11-09 8:55 AM
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Subject: RE: would you vote to change the swim length?
You know what though. If they increased the swim length people would swim more and make it harder to get pool time. Maybe the swim is perfect right where it is.
2007-11-09 9:18 AM
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Master
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Subject: RE: would you vote to change the swim length?
Are you kidding?!  No!!!  If that happened, I'd have to convert to a duathlete.  NTTAWWT...but I like tri's.


2007-11-09 9:27 AM
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Subject: RE: would you vote to change the swim length?
The swim is hard enough for me.  I'd probably have to bail on the sport.
2007-11-09 9:54 AM
in reply to: #1044075

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Subject: RE: would you vote to change the swim length?
The swim distances come from this history of Ironman (copied from wikipedia):

"The idea for the original Ironman Triathlon arose during the awards ceremony for the 1977 Oahu Perimeter Relay (a running race for 5-person teams). Among the participants were numerous representatives of both the Mid-Pacific Road Runners and the Waikiki Swim Club, whose members had long been debating which athletes were more fit, runners or swimmers.

On this occasion, U.S. Navy Commander John Collins pointed out that a recent article in Sports Illustrated magazine had declared that Eddy Merckx, the great Belgian cyclist, had the highest recorded "oxygen uptake" of any athlete ever measured, so perhaps cyclists were more fit than anyone. Cdr. Collins and his wife, Judy, had taken part in the triathlons staged in 1974 and 1975 by the San Diego Track Club in and around Mission Bay, California, as well as the Optimist Sports Fiesta Triathlon in Coronado, California, in 1975. A number of the other military athletes in attendance were also familiar with the San Diego races, so they understood the concept when Cdr. Collins suggested that the debate should be settled through a race combining the three existing long-distance competitions already on the island: the Waikiki Roughwater Swim (2.4 mi./3.85 km), the Around-Oahu Bike Race (115 miles; originally a two-day event) and the Honolulu Marathon (26.2 mi./42.195 km).

It is worth noting that no one present had ever done the bike race; Cdr. Collins calculated that, by shaving 3 miles off the course and riding counter-clockwise around the island, the bike leg could start at the finish of the Waikiki Rough Water and end at the Aloha Tower, the traditional start of the Honolulu Marathon. Prior to racing, each athlete received three sheets of paper listing a few rules and a course description. Handwritten on the last page was this exhortation: "Swim 2.4 miles! Bike 112 miles! Run 26.2 miles! Brag for the rest of your life", now a registered trademark."

2007-11-09 3:36 PM
in reply to: #1044075

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Subject: RE: would you vote to change the swim length?
I am in the camp that says that increasing the swim would limit the number of people who enter the sport. I know that there are all kinds of people in this sport, some find the swim the most scary, while others find the bike or run. Many of the people I talk about the sport with are most concerned about the swim. Most of the triathletes I know encourage others to enter the sport. And, keep in mind that the sprint and super sprint triathlon distances are the fastest growing events. So, I would keep the lengths the same.
2007-11-09 4:16 PM
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Master
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Subject: RE: would you vote to change the swim length?
I used to want a longer swim.  Then I realized it doesn't matter what I want -- I will only perform better in a triathlon if I improve my bike and run...  But I would still vote YES for a longer swim.
2007-11-09 6:13 PM
in reply to: #1046227

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Subject: RE: would you vote to change the swim length?

I was always curious that you doubled the bike (roughly) and double the run from Oly to HIM.  Then you double it again from HIM to IM.  However, the swim from Oly to HIM is only a 20% increase.  I know we all know that.  But it stood out to me.

I think that making the HIM and IM swims longer would be fine and make it more proportionate as orginally stated. 3k swim for half and 6k for full. (1.9 miles and 3.7 miles).  And leave the oly length at 1.5k.

There is a lot of argument that this could discourage new triathletes.  I firmly believe (yes, without actual studies or facts) that most beginners are NOT starting with a HIM or IM.  Mostly sprints and Oly's.  So to leave them the same length and change HIM and IM distances wouldn't really influence new triathletes, but it could lower the amount of people trying to move from oly's to HIM's or IM's.

I'm a decent swimmer, so I guess I'm a little biased and can handle the 1.9 or 3.7 mile distances with the proper amount of training.

BUT the logistics would be problematic and maybe nutrition as well.  I would say leave it as it is, and if someone wants to create something different to test themselves, feel free - I.E. the ultra ironmans.......



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