General Discussion Triathlon Talk » What's your 25m stroke count? Rss Feed  
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2008-10-13 12:15 AM

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Subject: What's your 25m stroke count?

Just wondering what your stroke count per 100m is for a typical longish swim, say anything over 1000m. Would also be helpful to know what sort of pace/100m you're swimming as well for that sort of stroke count.

I'm asking, since I'm new to swimming, and a la Total Immersion, have consistently gotten my stroke count pretty low without over-gliding (typically 14-15 strokes/25m without a big wall pushoff), but I'm getting destroyed by other pool guys who are hitting 22-25 strokes or more in adjacent lanes (they're going 1:30-1:40s/100m x miles!). I also am having a tough time holding my breath for the duration of the long strokes - my arms don't get tired, but I can't get enough air to go faster with such a low stroke count. I'm about 2:00/100m - but drop to 1:50/100m if I crank up the stroke count to 18ish (but with worse form.)

 



2008-10-13 4:44 AM
in reply to: #1737788

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Subject: RE: What's your 25m stroke count?

You should be exhaling the entire time your face is in the water, not holding your breath.  I know you said you're not gliding, but if you're running out of air you either have a VERY slow turnover, or you're gliding. 

I'm guessing a few rounds of golf could help you.

It can be a fun drill to do.  Your "golf" score is your time plus number of strokes.  Just like real golf, your goal is to get the lowest score possible.

2008-10-13 7:37 AM
in reply to: #1737830

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Subject: RE: What's your 25m stroke count?

I haven't seen the TI video or read the book but have had a couple of lessons from swimfortri in London and they seem to use similar philosophy. ie long smooth strokes to make the swim more efficient and leave more in the tank over a given distance. first time I went my stroke rate was 25 per 25m and looking at the dvd of my stroke my form was terrible. they worked on streamlining me and better rotation to help with the distance per stroke.

A bit of practice and my rate dropped to 20-21 per 25m and time for 100m fell from 2:00 to 1:50.

Another lesson and more practice and I am now doing 18 strokes per 25m in 1:40. The best thing is I can swim at 2:00 per 100m over Olympic distance no problem whereas I struggled to do 800m at that pace when I started my first sprint.

Agree totally with Trimybest, you should do golf scores. If breathing every 3rd stroke is too long per breath mix it up and do every 2nd stroke for a couple of lengths to get your form back. 

2008-10-13 7:55 AM
in reply to: #1737928

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Subject: RE: What's your 25m stroke count?

Yup ..... one of the reasons faster people are typically anti-TI.  It teaches you to swim, it doesn't teach you to swim fast .......

After 3 one on one lessons with a swim coach I could get it down to around 14 or 15 when I concentrated on it and didn't worry about speed in the 25y pool, but I'm typically in the 18 - 19 range for normal swims.

2008-10-13 8:25 AM
in reply to: #1737788

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Subject: RE: What's your 25m stroke count?
When doing distance per stroke drills, I can get down to 11-12 per 25 yards, but that is doing an extremely exagerated glide. As Rick said above, D.P.S. is a great drill for slowing down youyr stroke to work on body position, but it's not the best way to get from point A to point B in a race.
I would normally be 17 or so when swimming 1:20-1:25/100 yards

Edited by bryancd 2008-10-13 8:43 AM
2008-10-13 8:41 AM
in reply to: #1737788

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Subject: RE: What's your 25m stroke count?
I agree with the last 2 posts. Anything less than 18-19/100m IMO might be overgliding and thus slow you down a little.  18-19 has put me in the 1:25-1:30 range.


2008-10-13 9:15 AM
in reply to: #1737788

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Subject: RE: What's your 25m stroke count?
I'm around 18-19 most of the time, with a concentrated effort I can get that to 16-17 and maintain about the same speed (about 1:45/100). Balance work helps me a ton and after some time doing drills I'm normally a few seconds faster and can reduce my stroke count to that 16/17 range.

--Chris
2008-10-13 9:24 AM
in reply to: #1737788

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Subject: RE: What's your 25m stroke count?
18-20 per 25 Yd is a standard for me. If I swim faster I can get 1:30ish per 100 and if I'm working on a mile or greater distance I tend to get 1:50ish per 100. This year I've not been doing speed drills at all for run, bike or swim, I've just been putting in the time with slow distances. Starting in Jan I'll look at doing the drills. That'll be after about 9 months base. We'll see how that works
2008-10-13 9:52 AM
in reply to: #1737788

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Subject: RE: What's your 25m stroke count?

When I'm doing a longer distance set (500-1500 yards) in a 25 yd pool at a decent pace for me (i.e., 1:25 per 100 yd), I'm at about 15-16 strokes per 25 yds.  Sure, I can drop it to 10 strokes per lap for drills, but that doesn't really translate into regular swimming for me.  When I'm doing faster, shorter sets, say 100's at a 1:15 or faster, I'm sure my stroke count goes above 15, probably to 17 or 18.

Don't obsess over stroke count, but get it down to a relatively efficient level over time.  In a 25 meter pool, you should be below twenty strokes per lap -- something around 15-18 would be just fine.

2008-10-13 10:41 AM
in reply to: #1737830

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Subject: RE: What's your 25m stroke count?
TriMyBest - 2008-10-13 4:44 AM

You should be exhaling the entire time your face is in the water, not holding your breath.  I know you said you're not gliding, but if you're running out of air you either have a VERY slow turnover, or you're gliding. 

I'm guessing a few rounds of golf could help you.

It can be a fun drill to do.  Your "golf" score is your time plus number of strokes.  Just like real golf, your goal is to get the lowest score possible.


Different schools of thought on this. If you can get comfortable holding your breath and then forcefully and quickly exhaling prior to rotating and taking a breath, you will reap the benefits of greater buoyancy and better body position due to more air in your lungs (i.e., your "buoy" for the TI folks).
2008-10-13 12:10 PM
in reply to: #1737788

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Houston
Subject: RE: What's your 25m stroke count?
I generally hold 12 - 13 strokes per length at about a 1:20 - 1:30 pace. There shouldn't be a set number to strive for. It should be what is comfortable and maintainable.

What TriMyBest said makes the most sense. You're aiming for a "golf" score.


2008-10-13 1:23 PM
in reply to: #1737788

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Subject: RE: What's your 25m stroke count?

It also depends on how tall you are, the taller the better in terms of stroke count. Also, if you're dragging excess weight, like floating anchors (aka baggy shorts) or lots of extra body weight, then that will slow you down.

When I actually train for the swim Embarassed I usually hold around 1:50/100 with 15 strokes/25 for 2500-3000 straight (yards). If I swim faster my stroke count goes up.

(I'm a tall and lanky 44-year old female. On winter running-focused plan right now, thus not swimming much, only for recovery. Training to improve my swim by a few seconds is not efficient: I usually win my AG in the swim, stay pretty high on the bike... and then lose the podium on the run.)

2008-10-13 1:32 PM
in reply to: #1738393

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Subject: RE: What's your 25m stroke count?
ricro - 2008-10-13 10:41 AM

TriMyBest - 2008-10-13 4:44 AM

You should be exhaling the entire time your face is in the water, not holding your breath.  I know you said you're not gliding, but if you're running out of air you either have a VERY slow turnover, or you're gliding. 

I'm guessing a few rounds of golf could help you.

It can be a fun drill to do.  Your "golf" score is your time plus number of strokes.  Just like real golf, your goal is to get the lowest score possible.


Different schools of thought on this. If you can get comfortable holding your breath and then forcefully and quickly exhaling prior to rotating and taking a breath, you will reap the benefits of greater buoyancy and better body position due to more air in your lungs (i.e., your "buoy" for the TI folks).


I have to agree. Try to get the point where, as you are rotating your axis to breath, you are losing air at a rapid rate. The rest of the time you should keep it contained for boyancy as well as a calming factor. Legs have a TON to do with that equation. If you find that you aren't able to roll or hold your exhale think about what your legs are doing and when. Often times swimmers are so focused on upper body position, roll, extension, stroke count, head possition etc. they miss the fact that all of the upper body components are correct, it's the leg kick that is out of whack. For instance to elongate the time given to breath/glide a slightly large-wider scissored kick gives a little more propulsion to allow for propulsion lost by some as they roll to breath.

Did that make any sense????

2008-10-13 4:11 PM
in reply to: #1737788

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Subject: RE: What's your 25m stroke count?

Thanks all for the pointers. Will incorporate lots of them.

 In terms of my swimming, I do exhale pretty continuously during the face-down portion. I think I'm frustrated because as I mentioned, oxygen acquisition is a clearly limiting factor for my swimming. My arms never get tired at the paces that I'm swimming (they do only if I sprint for 100m-200m), but I get so short of breath that I can't maintain the low stroke count. 

I don't think it's my VO2 as well - I'm in pretty good shape after lots of marathon traning (I run the 5k in 18:00 and marathon at about 7:15/mile). I do wonder if my lungs are small or if my heavier body mass (BMI=25+) make it more important for me to take more breaths which may be limiting my swim.

I tried to throw a few more strokes in, but I don't think it's as good for my technique. I suspect that I really do need to just spend a LOT more time in the pool to build up the upper body capillaries that I'm sorely lacking. Of course, any other pointers to make this faster are welcome!

2008-10-13 4:18 PM
in reply to: #1738920

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Houston
Subject: RE: What's your 25m stroke count?
SauseEnte - 2008-10-13 1:23 PM

It also depends on how tall you are, the taller the better in terms of stroke count. Also, if you're dragging excess weight, like floating anchors (aka baggy shorts) or lots of extra body weight, then that will slow you down.

When I actually train for the swim Embarassed I usually hold around 1:50/100 with 15 strokes/25 for 2500-3000 straight (yards). If I swim faster my stroke count goes up.

(I'm a tall and lanky 44-year old female. On winter running-focused plan right now, thus not swimming much, only for recovery. Training to improve my swim by a few seconds is not efficient: I usually win my AG in the swim, stay pretty high on the bike... and then lose the podium on the run.)



This isn't really true.

I'm very average height ~(5'10") and I wear trunks while I workout (without trunks I would probably take 11 - 12 strokes per length).

I think your stroke count is far more about efficiency and feel for the water than any physical factors.
2008-10-13 5:10 PM
in reply to: #1737788

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Subject: RE: What's your 25m stroke count?
Mine is really bad. I average in the lower 30s for a 25 stoke count. My time when I am swimming at an easy pace is around 2:00-2:10/100 yards. I really need to work on my stroke! I also agree that stroke count is greatly based on efficiency. Like others have said, I can get my stroke count lower (down to the upper 20s) if I really focus on my stroke and do huge amounts of gliding between each stoke. I have no idea how to decrease my stoke count without gliding.

It would be really intresting to see if decreasing my stroke count would translate into any extra speed.

Edited by amyro1234 2008-10-13 5:19 PM


2008-10-13 5:22 PM
in reply to: #1739722

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Subject: RE: What's your 25m stroke count?
amyro1234 - 2008-10-13 2:10 PM

Mine is really bad. I average in the lower 30s for a 25 stoke count. My time when I am swimming at an easy pace is around 2:00-2:10/100 yards. I really need to work on my stroke!


I was in the same situation as you last year. Then I really worked on body position and efficiency using TI type techniques. I'm now down to 19 strokes per 25 yards and 1:40-1:45 / 100 yards. It's still relatively slow but now I have a better "feel" and I can start working on the strength and endurance.


2008-10-13 5:32 PM
in reply to: #1737788

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Subject: RE: What's your 25m stroke count?
Just this morning, I was doing around 24 strokes per 25m and about 2:00 mins per 100m. I've been doing Master's swim three mornings a week for several months now. I don't feel like I'm improving much. It sounds like several of you have gone the private lesson route. I think I might give that a shot.
2008-10-13 6:40 PM
in reply to: #1737788

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Subject: RE: What's your 25m stroke count?

Ok - I'm a slow swimmer (2:00/100m for 1000m+ swims), but from my limited experience, I think you can get a really good start on cutting down stroke number without a coach if you're way in the high 20s-low 30s per 25m.

I found that by reading Total Immersion carefully, and then doing most of the drills, and then "obsessing" about the flat body position and smooth strokes that he comments on in the book, my stroke number went  down from 25ish to 16-17 in a SINGLE workout - this is "typical" for swimmers who start for his Total Immersion technique.

Within a week, I was down to pretty much the stroke number I have now, which is about 14-15/25m. Unfortunately for me, the speed doesn't seem to correlate with stroke efficiency yet, but I'm counting on it to happen later. In fact, I definitely got slower for the first 3 weeks with the new stroke - which was also expected and warned about in the book due to the unfamiliarity with the technique. 

For me at least, those "big and long" powerful strokes really cost me in terms of energy consumption. Plus, I can't "huff and puff" rapidly as I would on the run or bike since the stroke is so long. In fact, the TI stroke is so powerful and long that it feels like I'm pulling up a hill in the big gear on a bike, and I wish I could "gear down!" to get some more smaller breaths! More training to come...



Edited by agarose2000 2008-10-13 6:43 PM
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