General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Time to get serious about the swim -- but how? Rss Feed  
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2009-09-16 9:44 PM

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Champion
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Subject: Time to get serious about the swim -- but how?
Basic question (the rest is a slightly longer version of this question):  What can I read to learn about structuring swim workouts (both individual workouts, and plans for the week, month, or whatever). Who are the swimming-equivalents of running authors like Daniels, Pfitzinger, and company?


Back story:  I started swimming about a year ago.  I want to get faster, especially over longer distances.  My form is OK, not great.  I have a coach whom I see occasionally to help out with form (and she has been amazingly helpful), but I'm cash-strapped and cannot afford it very often.  I can sprint 100yd in around 1:15 (that's an all-out sprint), a couple seconds faster on a good day.  My long-distance (1K and more) pace (1:45/100yd at best, on a good day) is, I think, not in line with what it should be given my top-end speed.  I want to improve both.

How?  How should one structure workouts (both within the workout itself, and over the course of a week, month, or whatever) to do these things (i.e., improve top end speed, and bring long-distance pace closer to top-end speed)?  Or better yet, what do I read to learn about structuring swim workouts?   Right now, I'm just making stuff up, and I need to move on from that.





2009-09-16 11:52 PM
in reply to: #2410797

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Veteran
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Subject: RE: Time to get serious about the swim -- but how?
We seem to be right around the same level in terms of speed in swimming.

I bought a book on a whim about a year ago for tri training. It is waterproof and features pages cut into 3 sections for S, B, R on each side. It is about 60 pages of workouts (120 for each sport) and obviously you can make brick workouts too. It really takes the thinking out of it.

http://www.amazon.com/Waterproof-Triathlete-Workouts-Triathletes/dp/0965623025#noop

Just to warn you, I bought it as a beginner triathlete and never used it. All of the workouts were too long. The swim workouts are 1600-3000+ meters. But now that I am prepping for an international distance race, it is becoming well worth the money. I can see myself using this with half/full Ironmans if in fact I ever get crazy enough to do one.

If you're really interested, I could probably scan a couple pages and send them to you to use/see some of the workouts.

This may help as well:

http://www.swimsmooth.com/training.html


Edited by TRI-ing soldier 2009-09-16 11:59 PM
2009-09-17 7:02 AM
in reply to: #2410797

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Time to get serious about the swim -- but how?

I would suggest that you find a coached masters/triclub swim workout to join and spend 3-5x/week in the pool over the fall/winter/spring.

Having a coach on deck should mean that you will have well written programs as well as someone to provide feedback on your technique.  Further, having other swimmers to swim with is great motivation to push yourself a little harder than you would while swimming alone.

Shane

2009-09-17 8:35 AM
in reply to: #2410797

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Modesto, California
Subject: RE: Time to get serious about the swim -- but how?

Masters is great for motivation, but Ive found workouts are hit and miss as far as abilities and your goals. Often the goals of the masters practice are not the same as yours or could be just another random workout that looks fun. People who swim fast swim often, try to keep swimming 3 or 4+ days on a consistant basis. Have a goal for every main set instead of just trying to swim faster, have specific goal times for every set so that you constantly are monitoring and trying to improve your times. Pick a distance of a set you want to improve upon,100's,200's,300's etc and how many and set up your goal times, this will push yourself to swim farther and faster. I have an Ironman watch that has an interval setting on it, I can set the time for the interval(1:20 and I will swim 100's)(:15 seconds rest). My watch beeps to start, beeps at the end of 1:20 then beeps into interval 2 for the :15 rest and starts all over. Its easy to set for whatever distance you are swimming, or just use the interval clock at the pool, just keep pushing your times! This year I went from swimming 1:17 100yrd free to my last meet where I swam 1:10 100m free and I keep showing improvements swimming main sets faster, however warmup, drills and cooldown are focused on form and strength, main sets are to show it off!

2009-09-17 8:55 AM
in reply to: #2411240

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Cycling Guru
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Subject: RE: Time to get serious about the swim -- but how?
I'm more partial to this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Workouts-Binder-Swim-Triathletes/dp/1931382204/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b

But as mentioned, get some one on one lessons.  You only need to meet a few times for about a 1/2 hour or so.  Do the drills the coach recommends and let them make adjustments to your stroke in increments.  Then you can have your stroke looked at every few months for touch up.

Once your form is decent?  No real magic to it ......... swim lots, swim varried speeds.
2009-09-17 9:02 AM
in reply to: #2410797

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Time to get serious about the swim -- but how?
A couple of other thoughts:

* I am not a big fan of the workouts in a binder; if I were you and you are going to continue to make up your own workouts, I would look at the resources on the US Masters Swimming website

* If you are going to invest in one-on-one coaching, I would find someone who includes video analysis with your session.

Shane


2009-09-17 10:55 AM
in reply to: #2410926

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Time to get serious about the swim -- but how?
TRI-ing soldier - 2009-09-16 9:52 PM  All of the workouts were too long. The swim workouts are 1600-3000+ meters.


And this pervasive attitude is why so many people wonder why their swim speed is so slow.

To the OP:

I like the workouts in a binder series, but I can see where macleod might not.

Basically, to REALLY improve your swim speed, you need an instructor that can make sure your stroke is decent. Once it is decent, there really is no magic formula (Well, ok, kinda).

2-3000m per workout. 2-4 workouts per week. Lots of threshold, some intervals, some OWS if you can manage it. Once every few weeks (5-6) do a Tpace workout to find what your working threshold pace is, and base your workout paces off of that. (The workouts in a binder for triathletes has a decent one).

Ruth Kazez also has a lot of good workouts on her site.

Bottom line, if you're in the pool twice a week kicking out 1500m each time, unless you've been a swimmer all your life, it ain't gonna help you too much.

John
2009-09-17 1:17 PM
in reply to: #2411676

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Master
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Subject: RE: Time to get serious about the swim -- but how?

Bottom line, if you're in the pool twice a week kicking out 1500m each time, unless you've been a swimmer all your life, it ain't gonna help you too much.

John


This is really interesting, because it is extremely hard to justify huge time blocks swimming, when my longest competition swim is 1.2 miles. Especially considering my run and bike workouts seldom are even as long as the distance in the race. So to swim 3 or 4 times the race distance in several workouts a week seems like overkill, and I can't get motivated to do it.

But I can see your point here.

My plan is to join a Masters team over the winter and swim with them to improve and get more swimming motivation and do longer workouts.  Another problem for me is I can run and bike from home. Swimming is 20 minutes away, which means 40 minutes of driving, plus time for showering, etc. This makes swimming much less convenient and much more time intensive that the other sports.
2009-09-17 1:33 PM
in reply to: #2412068

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Time to get serious about the swim -- but how?
ahohl - 2009-09-17 11:17 AM

Bottom line, if you're in the pool twice a week kicking out 1500m each time, unless you've been a swimmer all your life, it ain't gonna help you too much.

John


This is really interesting, because it is extremely hard to justify huge time blocks swimming, when my longest competition swim is 1.2 miles. Especially considering my run and bike workouts seldom are even as long as the distance in the race. So to swim 3 or 4 times the race distance in several workouts a week seems like overkill, and I can't get motivated to do it.

But I can see your point here.

My plan is to join a Masters team over the winter and swim with them to improve and get more swimming motivation and do longer workouts.  Another problem for me is I can run and bike from home. Swimming is 20 minutes away, which means 40 minutes of driving, plus time for showering, etc. This makes swimming much less convenient and much more time intensive that the other sports.


uhm....1.2 miles is just under 2000m. You swim 2x per week at 2000m per workout, that's double your distance, not "3 or 4" times.

And the time argument doesn't wash, either. If you're training for a HIM, then your bike workouts are going to be in the 1.5-2 hour range or more. If a bike workout takes you 2 hours + shower time afterwards, how is that different from 40 mins driving, 20 mins shower and a 45 min - 1 hour swim workout? It's even only marginally longer than an hour run with a shower.

And, if you are swimming a good workout with 100's on short rest, it shouldn't take you that long. 300 warmup at 2:00/100, 15x100 at 1:40 + 20s rest per, 200wd at 2:00/100, that's 40 minutes.

Now, to REALLY improve and get fast, then yes, you probably need to be putting in 8-10k per week. The nice thing is, though, if your swim form is decent, you can do that during an offseason, then maintain it fairly well on a couple 2-3000m workouts per week.

John
2009-09-17 1:42 PM
in reply to: #2412131

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Master
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Subject: RE: Time to get serious about the swim -- but how?

And the time argument doesn't wash, either. If you're training for a HIM, then your bike workouts are going to be in the 1.5-2 hour range or more. If a bike workout takes you 2 hours + shower time afterwards, how is that different from 40 mins driving, 20 mins shower and a 45 min - 1 hour swim workout? It's even only marginally longer than an hour run with a shower.

And, if you are swimming a good workout with 100's on short rest, it shouldn't take you that long. 300 warmup at 2:00/100, 15x100 at 1:40 + 20s rest per, 200wd at 2:00/100, that's 40 minutes.

Now, to REALLY improve and get fast, then yes, you probably need to be putting in 8-10k per week. The nice thing is, though, if your swim form is decent, you can do that during an offseason, then maintain it fairly well on a couple 2-3000m workouts per week.

John


Yes, I don't mean more time intensive overall. I mean more time intensive when measured by percentage of the race.

So the bike is half of the race. No problem doing a 4-hour ride on the weekend.

However, the swim is about 1/8 of the race so spending 1.75 hours getting to the pool, swimming for an hour, showering and getting home seems like less of a good investment. KWIM?

And I don't primp, either.

When I leave from home and shower at home, the kids are around, and I can talk to them through the door, or whatever. But driving to and from is negative family time. I'm just making excuses, I know.
2009-09-17 1:49 PM
in reply to: #2410797

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Time to get serious about the swim -- but how?
your pool is 1 hr and 45 min away drive wise?

i would say find a closer pool.  i had a pool about 20 min away, i was able to find one about 4 min away.  (by car).  if i miss a swim workout i can only say "i am lazy".

and he is right.  triaining for HIM.  swim is 1.2 miles = 2100 yards.  my workouts tend to be 2500-3500 yards. 

lesson i have learned swimming over the distance gives you confidence and ability to go faster on race day. 


2009-09-17 2:16 PM
in reply to: #2412175

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Master
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Subject: RE: Time to get serious about the swim -- but how?
trix - 2009-09-17 2:49 PM your pool is 1 hr and 45 min away drive wise?

 


No - total time for the workout. 20 minute driving there. Swim 1 hour. Shower/change 5 minutes. Drive home.

2009-09-17 2:19 PM
in reply to: #2410797

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Master
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Subject: RE: Time to get serious about the swim -- but how?
technique is key.

If you can get that down, then the effort will come down and the distance will improve. It's like learning to ride and run. Little at a time, easy effort, get comfortable, then start turning it up.

Like mentioned, if you can get with a masters group (usually they'll help w/ the workouts and form), that'll help get your volume and technique up. With both, the times will come down.

You've been given lots of good advice so far too. Eat it up!
2009-09-17 2:23 PM
in reply to: #2412248

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Cycling Guru
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Subject: RE: Time to get serious about the swim -- but how?
"You don't win the race in the swim, but you can certainly lose it."

The shorter the time you are in the water, the more energy and time you have to do the rest of the event.  If you are slow and inefficient in the swim then it sets you up for having to push too much in the other two disciplines which can lead to other problems.

Go look at all my shorter race results and then come back and tell me training the swim doesn't really matter as much.  I've missed out on podiums and even an overall race win because my swim sucks.
2009-09-17 2:23 PM
in reply to: #2410797

Member
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Subject: RE: Time to get serious about the swim -- but how?
A lot of great advice on here. Let me just add that the extra distance in the pool 3-4k will go a long way. The masters club is the way to go, if possible. My club works out at 6am - 7:30am. Doesn't interfere with regular life, other than going to bed earlier the night before. The group is a great way to keep motivated. If a miss a practice, the coach is asking for me. Not to mention knocking out 4500 yards on Monday morning gets the week started right!

As for workouts the 100 sets are the way to go. If 1:20 is your all out sprint, you should be able to hold about 1:40 - 1:50 comfortably. I all out sprint a 57.7, and I can really hold my 100s at 1:15 comfortably. One of my favorite sets is 15X100 yards on 1:30. After 10, I sometimes feel really worked and I'll drop the interval to 1:40 or 1:45. Nothing wrong with that.

I might be the only one to preach this, but stroke work. Can you swim backstroke, breaststroke or butterfly. Doing individual medley sets keep things interesting and i usually jack my heartrate up better doing stroke work. So maybe 8, 10 or 12x50 yards. Odd ones your choice of stroke, even ones freestyle. I think it helps with your overall comfort level in the water and your feel for the water. 
 
The coach is a great idea too. But i would use the coach sparingly. Once a month or even every other month. And if you don't know how to do the other strokes, get the most out of your coach and ask them for help with the strokes.

Hope this helps!!
2009-09-17 2:52 PM
in reply to: #2412268

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Time to get serious about the swim -- but how?
johnnyrockit - 2009-09-17 12:23 PM
I might be the only one to preach this, but stroke work. Can you swim backstroke, breaststroke or butterfly. Doing individual medley sets keep things interesting and i usually jack my heartrate up better doing stroke work. So maybe 8, 10 or 12x50 yards. Odd ones your choice of stroke, even ones freestyle. I think it helps with your overall comfort level in the water and your feel for the water. 
 


Not the only one, but getting most triathletes to even attempt butterfly is like telling them they don't need hydration and GU for a sprint. They just don't get it.

John


2009-09-17 2:58 PM
in reply to: #2410797

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Time to get serious about the swim -- but how?
Thanks everyone.  I was doing 6-9K/week for my IM training, and I plan to ramp that up to more like 10-15K/week over the winter, so long as I can avoid injury.  So I'm definitely on board with the concept of increasing volume.  I wish I could do even more, but at some point time does become a factor.  I do occasionally see a coach, but mostly I'm on my own--masters is not an option for me.

I'll check out the various web sites that people mention, and the workouts in a binder.

Thanks again.
2009-09-17 3:53 PM
in reply to: #2412355

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Time to get serious about the swim -- but how?
Experior - 2009-09-17 12:58 PM Thanks everyone.  I was doing 6-9K/week for my IM training, and I plan to ramp that up to more like 10-15K/week over the winter, so long as I can avoid injury.  So I'm definitely on board with the concept of increasing volume.  I wish I could do even more, but at some point time does become a factor.  I do occasionally see a coach, but mostly I'm on my own--masters is not an option for me.

I'll check out the various web sites that people mention, and the workouts in a binder.

Thanks again.


If you want some other good examples for one off workouts, slowtwitch main forum, search for "fishtwitch" or "swim workouts". There is a monthly "challenge" group that puts down their workouts, and some of them are unearthly. (Try some of tigerchik's workouts sometime, or axles of evil.)

John
2009-09-17 3:59 PM
in reply to: #2412346

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Time to get serious about the swim -- but how?
tkd.teacher - 2009-09-17 4:52 PM

Not the only one, but getting most triathletes to even attempt butterfly is like telling them they don't need hydration and GU for a sprint. They just don't get it.


x2 except I usually don't specify what stroke I want them to use; I'll just give something like non-free or choice.

I'll only do fly once in a while to prove that I can still do it but pretty much every workout has some back and breast.

Shane
2009-09-17 7:02 PM
in reply to: #2410797

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Master
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Subject: RE: Time to get serious about the swim -- but how?

Swimming well is about having good form. It is learning to do something naturally that is not natural. It is becoming more efficient so you don't have to expend as much energy to go the same speed, or if you prefer, going faster without having to expend more energy. For most it is a combination of both.

If your 1000 time is not on par with your 100 time it is likely that your workouts are geared toward developing speed over a short distance. Frankly in the 2 years since I returned by way of triathlons to swimming (after being away for 2 decades), I have yet to time myself for an all out 100. I also don't know how fast I can run a quarter mile. It is just irrelevant: it tells me nothing of value in my preparation for a race. I think I do just fine in the swim.

I swim a 1500 meters in a triathlon at the same 100 pace that I swim a 5K. When I am done swimming a 5K I am done. When I am done swimming 1500 meters at the start of a triathlon I am just getting started.

2009-09-17 8:14 PM
in reply to: #2412716

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Time to get serious about the swim -- but how?
E=H2O - 2009-09-17 8:02 PM

If your 1000 time is not on par with your 100 time it is likely that your workouts are geared toward developing speed over a short distance.


Thanks.  I'm sure that's true.  I'll work on it...


2009-09-17 11:26 PM
in reply to: #2410797

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Expert
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Subject: RE: Time to get serious about the swim -- but how?
A good swimming book is "Total Swimming" by Janet Evans.   She explains what different workouts do for you and has a bunch of different workouts and  programs.

http://www.humankinetics.com/products/all-products/Janet-Evans'-Total-Swimming---Onebookshelf-PDF
2009-09-17 11:50 PM
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Master
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Subject: RE: Time to get serious about the swim -- but how?
I gotta admit - at the Malibu olympic triathlon this past weekend, it really looked like people were "winning it" on the swim. The swim had some of the biggest differences in time in the top 30%. It seemed like more than the bike and run. And it also seemed that if there was one thing in common that the top 10% had, it was a hellaciously fast swim. Moreso than a hellaciously fast bike or run.
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