login
Poll on swim wave start order
-
No new posts
|
 2009-09-15 9:30 AM |
Veteran  196   Arlington, VA |  Subject: Poll on swim wave start orderI did the Nation's Tri over the weekend. Before the race, I was terrified it was going to be a crowded nightmare with 6000 people registered and 32 swim waves. As a 35-39 male who went off in wave 7, the crowds were fine. though I felt bad for the older men and women who started behind me. On the return trip on the bike, the course looked packed, and I'm sure the swim was the same way. (The general start order was 1) elite, both men and women; 2) military academy cadets; 3) disabled athletes); 4) men starting at 30-34 and going up to 44, with the 25-29 year old men thrown in there as well; 5) women from 25-39; 6) -24 men; 7) 45-49 M; 8) -24 F; 9) relays; 10) 40-49 F; 11) 50+ M & F. I understand that there are several schools of thought on this. This race seemed to follow putting the fastest groups first to minimize crowding. Other races I've done put the slowest groups up front to clump everyone up and minimize road closure time. (I realize that there are fast and slow swimmers within every group, but I'm looking at the groups as a whole.) It seemed unfair to me that all the women had to deal with all the slow men who started before them, in addition to dealing with the crowds in their own waves. I know someone has to go towards the end, but almost all of the male groups were first followed by most of the female groups. The men suffered, though, because there were no cute young women to chase on the bike or on the run, except for a handful of military academy cadets and midshipmen (midwhipwomen?) who started at the front. Edited by kcb203 2009-09-15 9:42 AM |
| 2009-09-15 9:35 AM in reply to: #2407002 |
Champion 14571   the alamo city, Texas | Subject: RE: Poll on swim wave start order disabled athletes are faster than the 30-34 AG? |
| 2009-09-15 9:38 AM in reply to: #2407002 |
Veteran 196 Arlington, VA | Subject: RE: Poll on swim wave start order I think there were only two competitors in the group of people with disabilities. I don't know what their individual situations were--I didn't notice anybody on a hand cycle or wheelchair, but they could have beat me on the swim and stayed in front of me the whole race, or I could have passed them in the water and never seen them. What I did see was someone on Canal Road with a kid in a trailer, though. That seems like an accident waiting to happen in a race like this. |
| 2009-09-15 9:44 AM in reply to: #2407002 |
Extreme Veteran 750 Long Beach, Mississippi | Subject: RE: Poll on swim wave start order I had to vote in favor of "fastest group to slowest group" even though I HATE the thought of it... because I fall into the slowest group category... and I'm SLOW... so that puts me in danger of being DFL in the race... however, I just did my first race and I didn't come in last... it gave me a chance to pass people younger than me, and I didn't get passed much at all - who was left to pass me? |
| 2009-09-15 9:45 AM in reply to: #2407002 |
Extreme Veteran 591 New Port Richey, FL | Subject: RE: Poll on swim wave start order I'd like to see them start each wave by the median finish time for that group from the previous year, regardless of gender, age, condition, etc. |
| 2009-09-15 9:51 AM in reply to: #2407002 |
Master 1790 Tyler, TX | Subject: RE: Poll on swim wave start order At larger races where the bike course gets too crowded to be safe, I'd prefer that the whole AG waves be thrown out and the waves be based on your expected finish time. This might cause different problems (more drafting?) but the safety issue of too many bikes on the road at once is minimized. And you're competing against people of similar ability regardless of age or gender which I think is good. Brian
|
| 2009-09-15 9:51 AM in reply to: #2407002 |
Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: Poll on swim wave start order It's a no-win for the RD's. What about the fast cyclists who are slow swimmers? What about the fast runners who are slow swimmers. What about the fast swimmers that are dismal cyclists or runners?? Overall I think they did a very good job at Nations considering the overall size of the field. Someone is always going to get the short end of the stick. That is usually the people who start later. I've been in races where our field (M35-39) goes off really early and others where it has gone off later. It hasn't made much difference in overall results for me. You are still competing against the people in your AG if you are looking to place. And if you are going for the overall, you'd be in the elite wave that went first (with Mayor Fenty of course). |
| 2009-09-15 9:52 AM in reply to: #2407002 |
Champion 11989 Philly 'burbs | Subject: RE: Poll on swim wave start order My wave first. |
| 2009-09-15 9:59 AM in reply to: #2407070 |
Veteran 196 Arlington, VA | Subject: RE: Poll on swim wave start order Daremo - 2009-09-15 9:51 AM And if you are going for the overall, you'd be in the elite wave that went first (with Mayor Fenty of course). Speaking of that, what were the standards for the elite wave? I'm no speed demon but I beat 17 of the 59 men who started in the elite wave. (My time was 2:26.) I wouldn't mind going off at the front. |
| 2009-09-15 10:06 AM in reply to: #2407095 |
Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: Poll on swim wave start order Usually it will require you to be sub-2:10 for men and sub 2:25 for women. But Mayor Fenty was in the first wave (it is his city afterall) and he usually races in our AG. Who knows how many other "elites" were invited to go in that wave that normally wouldn't be there. Or who knows how many had flats or mechanicals or just bad days. |
| 2009-09-15 10:10 AM in reply to: #2407002 |
Elite 2998 Fishers, Indiana | Subject: RE: Poll on swim wave start order A few of the races here in Texas have the "open" wave and really, anyone can enter that wave. It's designed for the elites, but you can enter it--you just have to be willing to give up placing in your AG and getting any USAT points, that's the cost of the open wave. |
| 2009-09-15 10:55 AM in reply to: #2407024 |
Champion 5376 PA | Subject: RE: Poll on swim wave start order meherczeg - 2009-09-15 10:35 AM disabled athletes are faster than the 30-34 AG? You ever see me swim? |
| 2009-09-15 10:55 AM in reply to: #2407002 |
Pro 4353 Wallingford, PA | Subject: RE: Poll on swim wave start order I was in wave 28 at Nation's last weekend.... I ran into a ton of people on the swim course - people who started 3 & 4 waves ahead of me, and it was one of the slowest swims I've done in ages! And I got swum over by people behind me, as well. Not that there weren't stretches of open water, but I would have to say that overall it was probably one of the most difficult swims I've had in terms of having to navigate around other people. Bike was similar, but not as bad. I mostly ran into trouble at the spots where the road narrowed, and there was just no place to go - there was really no way at that point not to be in someone else's draft zone... I think one of the problems is that the waves were so big, and they started very close together. If they had been able to allow 5 minutes between waves, I think things would have spread out more, but there's no way they could have gotten everyone off on time with that kind of timing. I wonder how things might have turned out if all 6000 people had turned up, and not just 4000! I agree that with a race that big, and waves that big and starting that close together, a system of starting based on expected finish time might be a good way to go. Sure, you're going to have faster or slower swimmers, cyclists, and runners in each of those waves, but I would bet the relative pace of all three would be closer in a wave of 200 people with an anticipated finish time of, say, 2:45 - 2:50, than in a wave of 200 people in an age grouping, who's overall race times might range from < 2:30 to nearly 4:00 or more. Of course, the down side to that is that it puts the slowest people out on the course in the hottest part of the day, and in the case of Nation's, risking having to DNF because the course closed at 1:00.... |
| 2009-09-15 11:20 AM in reply to: #2407002 |
Master 1927 Guilford, CT | Subject: RE: Poll on swim wave start order I like the purity of a mass start. |
| 2009-09-15 11:39 AM in reply to: #2407002 |
| New user 148 Savannah, GA | Subject: RE: Poll on swim wave start order I did one race that asked what your estimated swim time was, and then assigned race numbers based on that. We then all lined up by number and they then did a time trial start, letting 2 people go every two seconds. It spaced everyone out nice. One of my friends (who is female) ended up being first out of the water, so she thought it was great not having to weave her way through the slower guys like she usually has to. But that was more like 200 people, not 6000. Edited by beckjon 2009-09-15 11:40 AM |
| 2009-09-15 11:46 AM in reply to: #2407024 |
| Pro 4054 yep, | Subject: RE: Poll on swim wave start order meherczeg - 2009-09-15 10:35 AM disabled athletes are faster than the 30-34 AG?
They put these people out b/c usually there aren't that many and the fasties at 30-34 can pass with no problem. |
| 2009-09-15 12:06 PM in reply to: #2407002 |
| Alpharetta, Georgia | Subject: RE: Poll on swim wave start order I understand the rationale behind starting slower swimmers off first (time issue for the rest of the day), but is it really safe to put the fastest men's age groups in the last waves? This was done at more than one 70.3 I've raced and it's frustrating for ALL parties. Those guys have to dodge and swim around everyone else (10 waves in front of them, for 1.2 miles), while everyone else is getting swum over rather agressively. It's really no-win. I prefer random! Mix it up. |
| 2009-09-15 12:26 PM in reply to: #2407369 |
Champion 5782 Northridge, California | Subject: RE: Poll on swim wave start order beckjon - 2009-09-15 9:39 AM I did one race that asked what your estimated swim time was, and then assigned race numbers based on that. We then all lined up by number and they then did a time trial start, letting 2 people go every two seconds. It spaced everyone out nice. One of my friends (who is female) ended up being first out of the water, so she thought it was great not having to weave her way through the slower guys like she usually has to. But that was more like 200 people, not 6000. Yeah, and I did one of those and it was the most frustrating swim I've ever done...people generally suck at self-seeding, (esp. in races with heavy firsttimer participation)...this was a 400m pool swim and I was stuck at one point behind two women who'd seeded themselves ahead of me (I'm a basically MOP swimmer) who were breaststroking side-by-side taking up the whole lane (with another slow swimmer right in front of them...basically no good way to pass). |
| 2009-09-15 2:21 PM in reply to: #2407002 |
| Member 23 | Subject: RE: Poll on swim wave start order OK, newbie question that I might think of the answer as soon as I hit enter, but whats a MOP swimmer? |
| 2009-09-15 2:22 PM in reply to: #2407002 |
| Member 23 | Subject: RE: Poll on swim wave start order I knew that would happen...is it My own Pace? |
| 2009-09-15 2:22 PM in reply to: #2407799 |
Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: Poll on swim wave start order Middle of the Pack. Basically if you look at the typical swim times for any given race, it would be the people who fall in the fat part of the bell curve. |
| 2009-09-15 2:26 PM in reply to: #2407802 |
| Subject: RE: Poll on swim wave start order LMST - 2009-09-15 3:22 PM I knew that would happen...is it My own Pace? As Rick said, it's Middle of the Pack FOP - Front of the Pack BOP - Back of the Pack and various permutations such as BOFOP (back of front of pack), FOBOP, etc, etc. |
| 2009-09-15 2:56 PM in reply to: #2407002 |
Expert 1123 Columbus | Subject: RE: Poll on swim wave start order was the poll asking what do we see most often or what do we want to see? I would prefer mass starts. Or at lesat far fewer waves (maybe 2 or 3) 1 elite/podium hopefuls, people competing for time/ AG podium, people looking to finish/gain fitness. In waves I am usually the 3rd to fifth wave at age 42. I am OK with the placement because I always have someone to chase down and I never have any crowding issues in the swim because of group size and relative speed of the group. In the end, it doesn't really matter where I start but it would be nice when placing in overalls to actually be one of the early people to cross the line. People often get a 12 minute head start and since I can't close that gap on a some people it looks like I'm finishing much further back than I really am. I am glad my HIM this month only has 2 waves and it is only a 2 minute difference. |
| 2009-09-15 3:34 PM in reply to: #2407002 |
Pro 4824 Houston | Subject: RE: Poll on swim wave start order I believer MOP = middle of pack. I totally understand fastest starting first and honestly don't want fast folks in the wave behind me swimming on top of me. However, I live in Houston where it is CRAZY HOT and I really do have a problem with them starting 'older' folks at the back of the line when it is likely to be hottest during their run. I did a tri at the end of June and a older man of 70ish had to nearly be carried once he crossed the finish line. From what I understand he is experienced BUT it was VERY HOT that day and the heat simply takes more out of older folks. So I would say oldies first. Now can we talk about why the fast folks always get the best TA spots??? |
| 2009-09-15 3:38 PM in reply to: #2407973 |
| Subject: RE: Poll on swim wave start order KeriKadi - 2009-09-15 4:34 PM Now can we talk about why the fast folks always get the best TA spots??? That's not entirely true. Aside from anyone in the "elite" category, at all of the open water swim races I've done (that didn't require you to put in an average pace - one race did), you just got your number based on when you signed up, or in some instances it was alphabetical. So then your rack was determined by that number. In pool swim races, if you are a fast swimmer, then you get a higher number. And in one non-USAT race I did, there were no assigned racks - it was totally open. Edited by wurkit_gurl 2009-09-15 3:39 PM |
|
|
|
|
View profile
Add to friends
Go to training log
Go to race log
Send a message
View album
CONNECT WITH FACEBOOK