Peter Sagan....it was just a pinch (Page 12)

This is a good point, alluding to some things you said before, I bet you would find a fair level of misunderstanding among my peers as to the point where its not that the woman has to say no, she has to say yes. Consent doesnt not mean not saying no.

And i apologize if i'm getting into the what if game, but lets say sagan grabs girl's butt. she says to him no dont do that, and he lets go and apologizes. is that assault?  am i risking assault every time i go in for a first kiss on a date?!

it was not my intention to say it is ok. i was just trying to pose the question, what is it that makes it a bad thing.  Why is murder bad? well I think that is easier to answer, it ends someones life right. So I just wanted to know why people thought that grabbing a butt is so terrible compared to other sorts of behavior. to the point that it spawned this thread.

What's a little murder compared to, say genocide, slavery, or the holocaust?

Just because you can find other sorts of behavior more terrible, does not diminish the original act.

Sure, the guy that grabs my wife's butt could say, at least I didn't beat and murder her, dismember her body, encase it in concrete and throw it in Lake Mead like what happened to a girl a couple years ago.

"Yeah, your right man, thanks for just grabbing her butt in public - that's not nearly as bad.  Go right ahead and do it again.  In fact, let all your friends do it too."

OK GREAT WONDERFUL i'm an arsehole and a jerk whatever. but will you answer my question. its a philisohpical question. why is this bothering people so much? if he punched fabian in the arm as a joke we wouldnt be so upset. i'm literally trying to ask people why they think this subject is making people so upset etc. and you're biased because your wife is a model

Your not a girl...  and apparently clueless about the psychology of this.  It's not just a "pinch".  It's the fact that someone feels they have the right to do something to you just because they feel like it, for kicks and fun - and in many cases, you just have to take it.  People get upset/mad just if someone calls them a name (and dwells on it for more than 5 min) - because that shows disrespect.  To what level of disrespect is shown by someone touching you in a manner you basically only let husbands or close friends do?  Even THEN, it's not always cool.

My wife get's occasionally pinched and grabbed in her work.  She does NOT just never think of again after 5 minutes.  She's not asking for the guys hands to be cut off or thrown in jail, but maybe thrown out of the concert/show.

She wears outfits for the atmosphere of the show and to contribute to the entire stage show.  She then does audience participation.  She is there for part of the show and illusion, not to be grabbed by drunk slobs.  You think she just "forgets after 5 minutes" when some guy grabs her butt where NO ONE else (save me) is permitted?  The embarrassment of having that happen in front of 100's/1000's of people?  Would she LIKE to smack the guy?  Sure, but she also has her job/show/venue to consider.  Employees of the casino/show can't strike people.  They have to go through normal security procedure.

And to think, this is a family show that I have taken lots of BTers to.  Just like the podium girls.  It's not just the physical pinch, it's the degrading and belittling and embarrassment that goes with it.  Especially if it's there for the world to see.

In bar?  yeah, smack the guy and move on.  In the public eye?  If your job could be at stake?  You have to smile and take it or go through some long process just because some yahoo thinks he can just grope and grab as he pleases.  It's a lack of respect, and she has to just stand there and be disrespected in front of an audience.

She comes home after a show where this happens is is visibly upset.  It's not something you just brush off in 5 minutes.  Is it the end of the world?  No, but it's not "just a thang".  I have seen it happen and yelled and asked her what I should do next time it happened.  Go over and pop the guy or protect her?  No, the show can't have the HUSBANDS of performs punching people either.  Helpless, unless you get security.

Your not a girl...  and apparently clueless about the psychology of this.  It's not just a "pinch".  It's the fact that someone feels they have the right to do something to you just because they feel like it, for kicks and fun - and in many cases, you just have to take it.  People get upset/mad just if someone calls them a name (and dwells on it for more than 5 min) - because that shows disrespect.  To what level of disrespect is shown by someone touching you in a manner you basically only let husbands or close friends do?  Even THEN, it's not always cool.

My wife get's occasionally pinched and grabbed in her work.  She does NOT just never think of again after 5 minutes.  She's not asking for the guys hands to be cut off or thrown in jail, but maybe thrown out of the concert/show.

She wears outfits for the atmosphere of the show and to contribute to the entire stage show.  She then does audience participation.  She is there for part of the show and illusion, not to be grabbed by drunk slobs.  You think she just "forgets after 5 minutes" when some guy grabs her butt where NO ONE else (save me) is permitted?  The embarrassment of having that happen in front of 100's/1000's of people?  Would she LIKE to smack the guy?  Sure, but she also has her job/show/venue to consider.  Employees of the casino/show can't strike people.  They have to go through normal security procedure.

And to think, this is a family show that I have taken lots of BTers to.  Just like the podium girls.  It's not just the physical pinch, it's the degrading and belittling and embarrassment that goes with it.  Especially if it's there for the world to see.

In bar?  yeah, smack the guy and move on.  In the public eye?  If your job could be at stake?  You have to smile and take it or go through some long process just because some yahoo thinks he can just grope and grab as he pleases.  It's a lack of respect, and she has to just stand there and be disrespected in front of an audience.

She comes home after a show where this happens is is visibly upset.  It's not something you just brush off in 5 minutes.  Is it the end of the world?  No, but it's not "just a thang".  I have seen it happen and yelled and asked her what I should do next time it happened.  Go over and pop the guy or protect her?  No, the show can't have the HUSBANDS of performs punching people either.  Helpless, unless you get security.

Ditto.

OK GREAT WONDERFUL i'm an arsehole and a jerk whatever. but will you answer my question. its a philisohpical question. why is this bothering people so much? if he punched fabian in the arm as a joke we wouldnt be so upset. i'm literally trying to ask people why they think this subject is making people so upset etc. and you're biased because your wife is a model

I'm going to try to answer this although the first I have read of this particular incident is when I just opened this thread.....

I know it is hard to believe but I had my share of booty grabs waaay so very long ago so I'll speak from my own experience. To me it was demeaning. Actually, as I try to explain why this is offensive I don't understand how this can possibly be considered anything but offensive so now I'm stuck.

What would you think a woman would think who just had her rear end grabbed? Ohhh, that feels good? He must think I'm cute, I want to go out with him? Gee he has great manners, let me bring him home to Mom & Dad?

I mean what is it even saying when someone does this? It is insulting and belittling. It takes a little piece of dignity away. In my particular case it caused a sense of shame, I must have asked for that by the way I dressed, presented myself or whatever. It is a reminder that some men still believe a woman's body can be used as a joke for a man at any given moment. Now magnify that for this young lady x all the people in the crowd, the photographs and the internet.

But I think it is hard to convey feelings through words on the internet and a lot of what is being discussed is really how a person feels.

So David I would ask you to think of a situation that might make you feel insulted, demeaned, shamed and belittled. Maybe for you that is not a booty grab, maybe it is something else. Now how about if someone had photos of that captured and shared on the internet so that you could relive the embarrassment for several days to come?

One woman's opinion. And I am not picking on you and I don't think you are a jerk. I think it is commendable that you want to try to understand.

I'm going to try to answer this although the first I have read of this particular incident is when I just opened this thread.....

I know it is hard to believe but I had my share of booty grabs waaay so very long ago so I'll speak from my own experience. To me it was demeaning. Actually, as I try to explain why this is offensive I don't understand how this can possibly be considered anything but offensive so now I'm stuck.

What would you think a woman would think who just had her rear end grabbed? Ohhh, that feels good? He must think I'm cute, I want to go out with him? Gee he has great manners, let me bring him home to Mom & Dad?

I mean what is it even saying when someone does this? It is insulting and belittling. It takes a little piece of dignity away. In my particular case it caused a sense of shame, I must have asked for that by the way I dressed, presented myself or whatever. It is a reminder that some men still believe a woman's body can be used as a joke for a man at any given moment. Now magnify that for this young lady x all the people in the crowd, the photographs and the internet.

But I think it is hard to convey feelings through words on the internet and a lot of what is being discussed is really how a person feels.

So David I would ask you to think of a situation that might make you feel insulted, demeaned, shamed and belittled. Maybe for you that is not a booty grab, maybe it is something else. Now how about if someone had photos of that captured and shared on the internet so that you could relive the embarrassment for several days to come?

One woman's opinion. And I am not picking on you and I don't think you are a jerk. I think it is commendable that you want to try to understand.

Nice....and same to you Kido.  My wife and I discussed this last night for a bit in light of her modeling experiences (back when dinosaurs roamed the earth), and her comments pretty much mirror you two.

Here's what I would like to hear about, because I really don't get it.  If it is as offensive, demeaning, shameful, etc.....as I agree it must be, why in the hell do some women, actually ALOT of women, not follow through with prosecuttion, or any other type of remedy? As you might imagine, I'm not afraid to go to the end of the road when I see something that is wrong....it's part of why I love my job so much.....I get to stand next to people who have been wronged and help them feel like it was made right, or at least one hell of an attempt was made on their behalf.

BUT.....as in the case here, often (maybe the majority of the time) you don't hear a word from the woman....or you do hear and she doesn't want to prosecute, or even be involved in the prosecution.  Why?  More importantly, how does that get changed? 

I have to say, and I know I'm a bit jaded from seeing it time and again, I don't have much sympathy for the person who won't stand up and take the responsibility of making a stand, no matter the cost.  Right is right, and as in this case, wrong is wrong. 

Shame, Helplessness, Embarassment, Fear of Retribution.

If that model is offended and prosecutes what do you think will happen to her career?  There is a good chance she will not get hired for a job because she is "that girl" or "trouble" or "a liability" or any number of other things I have heard men say about women who have stood up for themselves.  Women who are tough and strong and will stand up against those sorts of things are the ones that get called Beyotch and Dike in many men's more candid moments.

I think that is a tired reason and not nearly as applicable today as it was in the past.  Just look at this thread.......there are plenty of men who have posted and will to stand up and say it was wrong (many more than think there was nothing wrong with it)......but not many women.  Why?

At my own place of work we have had 3 instances similar to this in my 27 years.  Two of the women backed down and are no longer here.  The one who rained holy hell on the idiot who grabbed her is well liked and respected by all of us....and he's gone.

Dude.....don't start hugging everyone!!!!