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stopped running to tell a fellow cyclist to wear a helmet... (Page 5)
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| General Discussion | Triathlon Talk » stopped running to tell a fellow cyclist to wear a helmet... | Rss Feed  |
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 2009-09-07 4:50 AM in reply to: #2388934 |
Extreme Veteran  310 |  Subject: RE: stopped running to tell a fellow cyclist to wear a helmet...And this: craig002 - 2009-09-04 1:33 PM "be the change you want to see" It was Mahatma Gandhi :-) |
| 2009-09-07 5:14 AM in reply to: #2392918 |
Master 2491  | Subject: RE: stopped running to tell a fellow cyclist to wear a helmet... sanjana - 2009-09-07 5:50 AM And this: craig002 - 2009-09-04 1:33 PM "be the change you want to see" It was Mahatma Gandhi :-) It is well known that Gandhi often stopped cyclists to advise them on the wisdom of helmet use. |
| 2009-09-07 6:14 AM in reply to: #2388046 |
Master 1440 | Subject: RE: stopped running to tell a fellow cyclist to wear a helmet... Daremo - 2009-09-03 4:01 PM Damn bunch of idiots .............. You got that right I would never wear taht shade of pink on race day |
| 2009-09-07 7:07 AM in reply to: #2389988 |
Regular 82 New Jersey | Subject: RE: stopped running to tell a fellow cyclist to wear a helmet... I don't see anything wrong with OP trying to make a positive difference by suggesting to the fellow cyclist he might want to wear one. If he doesn't listen, his choice. But he may talk to his buddies afterwards and reflect on the issue and change his mind on the helmet issue. It seems to me what OP did harms noone, but may produce a positive outcome. x2 and well said. People are likely to be defensive on the spot, but so long as you don't speak to the person in a judgmental tone (and it sounds like the OP did not), they may actually consider your words later. Case in point - a couple I know thinks sunblock causes cancer. So they never put any on their kids, and their kids get burns to the point of blisters. There's no LAW that says they have to put sunblock, but they are making a choice that I think is idiotic even though it's their kids, their decision. And I say so, often. As a person who sunburns easily, fried often as a child, and now worries about skin cancer, this infuriates me. There is some evidence that products used in chemical sunscreens may cause cancer, so their concern about sunscreen is not completely unfounded. But there are alternatives to just letting your children fry. You might want to point out a couple resources to them (since you mention that you call them out on this behavior): * Sun protective clothing. Some types are coated with chemical sunscreens (which they'll want to avoid), but others are simply a very tight fabric weave - www.sunprecautions.com or www.solareclipse.com are two sources. * Sunscreens made with zinc oxide and titanium dioxide form a physical barrier on the skin and so are much safer than chemical sunscreens. The Environmental Working Group has analyzed the safety of hundreds of sunscreens - see http://www.ewg.org/whichsunscreensarebest/2009report. They have rated Badger Sunscreens as highly effective and very safe - see http://www.cosmeticsdatabase.com/product/92828/Badger_Sunscreen,_SP... and http://www.cosmeticsdatabase.com/sunproduct.php?prod_id=92830. |
| 2009-09-07 8:29 AM in reply to: #2387652 |
Champion 6742  The Green Between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh | Subject: RE: stopped running to tell a fellow cyclist to wear a helmet... |
| 2009-09-07 9:04 AM in reply to: #2387652 |
Champion 10157 Alabama | Subject: RE: stopped running to tell a fellow cyclist to wear a helmet... Granted, this thread has been beaten to death and I don't ride a dead horse for long.... mixaphorically speaking. But this thread was not about wearing a helmet, it was about whether or not someone should or should not suggest to an adult that they should wear a helmet. It boiled down to two schools of thought: 1. "Mind you own bidness. If I want your opinion I'll ask for it. I'm an adult and made my decision so stop trying to cram your agenda down my throat. Now butt out!" and 2. "If I see someone doing something I believe to be fundamentally dangerous, I will offer an suggestion as politely and congenially as I can. They can take it or leave it. Maybe if will casue them to refect upon it later on and it will make a difference." As with most debates here, I don't think many minds were changed but maybe but I think it was interesting to see how other people think. ~Mike
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| 2009-09-07 9:26 AM in reply to: #2387652 |
Expert 1170 Southern Pines, NC | Subject: RE: stopped running to tell a fellow cyclist to wear a helmet... The problem is that in adults, there's really no data to support the idea that helmets are the life-saving things the pro-helmet folks say they are, so the "you must wear a helmet" thing isn't exactly supported by anything real. That being said I still wear one and suggest that everyone wear one--especially in kids, where there is a documented reduction in mortality and severity of brain injury--but I have to be honest when I tell them there's no study I can quote that says it's a good idea. Knowing that, I wouldn't go out of my way to lecture an adult on it. Edited by DrPete 2009-09-07 9:27 AM |
| 2009-09-07 9:44 AM in reply to: #2393115 |
Champion 10157 Alabama | Subject: RE: stopped running to tell a fellow cyclist to wear a helmet... DrPete - 2009-09-07 9:26 AM The problem is that in adults, there's really no data to support the idea that helmets are the life-saving things the pro-helmet folks say they are, so the "you must wear a helmet" thing isn't exactly supported by anything real. That being said I still wear one and suggest that everyone wear one--especially in kids, where there is a documented reduction in mortality and severity of brain injury--but I have to be honest when I tell them there's no study I can quote that says it's a good idea. Knowing that, I wouldn't go out of my way to lecture an adult on it.
So let me see if I understand this. There is documented evidence that helmets reuduce head injury mortality and brain injury in kids...biking at 6 - 10 mph and 3 - 5 feet off the ground but for adults biking at 15 - 55 mph and 5 - 7 feel of the ground, there is no documented evidence that helmets save lives? Hmmm. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and just assume they might help. BTW, I've been t-boned by a Cadillac while on my bike. I can show you pictures of the helmet if you need more data. ~Mike |
| 2009-09-07 10:31 AM in reply to: #2393137 |
Expert 1170 Southern Pines, NC | Subject: RE: stopped running to tell a fellow cyclist to wear a helmet... Rogillio - 2009-09-07 10:44 AM DrPete - 2009-09-07 9:26 AM The problem is that in adults, there's really no data to support the idea that helmets are the life-saving things the pro-helmet folks say they are, so the "you must wear a helmet" thing isn't exactly supported by anything real. That being said I still wear one and suggest that everyone wear one--especially in kids, where there is a documented reduction in mortality and severity of brain injury--but I have to be honest when I tell them there's no study I can quote that says it's a good idea. Knowing that, I wouldn't go out of my way to lecture an adult on it.
So let me see if I understand this. There is documented evidence that helmets reuduce head injury mortality and brain injury in kids...biking at 6 - 10 mph and 3 - 5 feet off the ground but for adults biking at 15 - 55 mph and 5 - 7 feel of the ground, there is no documented evidence that helmets save lives? Hmmm. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and just assume they might help. BTW, I've been t-boned by a Cadillac while on my bike. I can show you pictures of the helmet if you need more data. ~Mike The appearance of the helmet after a crash is irrelevant--it's designed to get destroyed even in a very minor crash. This is where the "my helmet saved my life" misconception comes in--what's deadly in a car vs bike impact are things like: -lethal brain trauma, i.e. so severe that bike helmets aren't designed to protect against it -lethal chest/abdominal trauma -exsanguination (bleeding to death) on the road before a first responder can arrive. Just because a helmet is trashed doesn't mean it saved your life or prevented anything worse than some road rash on the side of your head. And really, when you look at the reasons listed above, there really isn't an area where a bike helmet will help. The only case where it would have a demonstrable benefit is in reducing the severity of a non-lethal brain injury. The data from kids has a lot to do with behaviors--more reckless, higher (relative speeds), trying stunts, etc etc. so more likelihood of falling in some bad way. Also has to do with susceptibility to injury, etc. etc. As for the adults riding faster, etc. a lot of the problem is this--the MUP riders are generally riding too slow to sustain a severe brain injury, and the ones riding fast are experienced cyclists who avoid the crashes with good riding and situational awareness. And again, in the high-speed car vs. bike arena, the helmet isn't going to save your life. Period. Please don't get me wrong, though--I fully advocate wearing a helmet because there's no down side to wearing, but the zealots who go telling people that they're more likely to die if they don't wear a helmet have no good evidence to back up the claim. A smashed up helmet is only proof that the helmet functioned as designed, not of a saved life. |
| 2009-09-07 11:00 AM in reply to: #2387652 |
Champion 10157 Alabama | Subject: RE: stopped running to tell a fellow cyclist to wear a helmet... In 1989 I was in the US Army Reserves as a graves registration officer in Soeul, South Korea. I had to go pick up a body at the morgue that they had just done an autopsy on. When I got to the hospitol, they had the body on a stainless steel table with this chest cavity open, all his orgrans in a pile, his face pealed back and his skull cap off. The scene was quite greusome but I managed to ask, "So, did you guys figure out what killed him?" "Oh yeah, he had one too many beers, fell down a flight of stairs and hit his head on the landing" he said as he held up the fractured part of the skull to show me. 10 years ago my dad in law as packing his RV and fell off the roof, landed on the concrete and cracked the side of his skull. He died about 24 hrs later as his brain swelled.
You'll never convince me that you don't substantially increase your chances of survival with a helmet. I don't need a big gubment study to convince me that decreasing the shock of my head hitting the asphalt is gonna increase my chances. ~Mike
BTW, speed has very little to do with biking skill. Gravity seems to be the dominate factor in high speed not skill. I'm a BOP cyclist but I give me a nice hill and I'm pushing 50 mph. Edited by Rogillio 2009-09-07 11:05 AM |
| 2009-09-07 11:08 AM in reply to: #2393194 |
Expert 1170 Southern Pines, NC | Subject: RE: stopped running to tell a fellow cyclist to wear a helmet... Rogillio - 2009-09-07 12:00 PM In 1989 I was in the US Army Reserves as a graves registration officer in Soeul, South Korea. I had to go pick up a body at the morgue that they had just done an autopsy on. When I got to the hospitol, they had the body on a stainless steel table with this chest cavity open, all his orgrans in a pile, his face pealed back and his skull cap off. The scene was quite greusome but I managed to ask, "So, did you guys figure out what killed him?" "Oh yeah, he had one too many beers, fell down a flight of stairs and hit his head on the landing" he said as he held up the fractured part of the skull to show me. 10 years ago my dad in law as packing his RV and fell off the roof, landed on the concrete and cracked the side of his skull. He died about 24 hrs later as his brain swelled.
You'll never convince me that you don't substantially increase your chances of survival with a helmet. I don't need a big gubment study to convince me that decreasing the shock of my head hitting the asphalt is gonna increase my chances. ~Mike
BTW, speed has very little to do with biking skill. Gravity seems to be the dominate factor in high speed not skill. I'm a BOP cyclist but I give me a nice hill and I'm pushing 50 mph. I'm not fundamentally disagreeing with you. The problem is that "assuming" it matters is not sufficient evidence to prove causation. Based on your experience, do you wear a helmet when you drink? Do you stop and chastise roofers who aren't wearing helmets? After all, you could sustain a lethal head injury engaging in these activities... And again, if you crash your bike at 50mph and sustain a direct blow to the head, you're dead, helmet or not. Edited by DrPete 2009-09-07 11:15 AM |
| 2009-09-07 11:26 AM in reply to: #2387652 |
Expert 1170 Southern Pines, NC | Subject: RE: stopped running to tell a fellow cyclist to wear a helmet... I think some of my perceived "disagreement" in this thread is a question of background. There are all kinds of levels of evidence, and anecdotal, n=1 experience is close to worthless. If I made some management decisions because they seemed intuitively good, I'd have assassinated a good number of patients by now. Some things, like helmet wearing, will never have firm, conclusive evidence, so you just make the best decision you can with the available data. For me, that means advocating helmet use because I see no down side. For others, the lack of evidence inspires them to not kowtow to "the Man" or to perpetuate the "myth" of helmet safety. Of course you don't have to prove to someone who already uses a helmet that it's a good idea. Problem is that if you're going to go out and yell at people for not wearing helmets, I'm guessing that they'll want to see some compelling evidence that it'll actually have some benefit. |
| 2009-09-07 11:28 AM in reply to: #2393035 |
Pro 4828 The Land of Ice and Snow | Subject: RE: stopped running to tell a fellow cyclist to wear a helmet... |
| 2009-09-07 11:59 AM in reply to: #2393222 |
Champion 10157 Alabama | Subject: RE: stopped running to tell a fellow cyclist to wear a helmet... I'm not just blindly 'assuming' anything. I'm an engineer and I've got a pretty good handle on the laws of physics. When you decelerate a body in motion, you have to do something with the energy of momentum. By dissipating some of the energy into the helmet structure, you reduce the energy that is trasferred to the skull. It's pretty academic. I bet that dead horse wasn't wearing a helmet!
Speaking or horses...my wife has horses and always wear a riding helmet. When I ride horses, I never wear a helmet. I never saw John Wayne wear a helmet! Still, she can tell you many stories of people who have been thrown, kicked, etc and suffered head injury or head injury was avoided by a helmet. She got bucked off one time and landed on the concrete. She hit so hard it ruptured her spleen. She hit her head to on the concrete too...but was wearing helmet and suffered no head injury. I still won't wear a helmet on a horse. ~Mike
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| 2009-09-07 12:44 PM in reply to: #2393260 |
Expert 1170 Southern Pines, NC | Subject: RE: stopped running to tell a fellow cyclist to wear a helmet... Rogillio - 2009-09-07 12:59 PM I'm not just blindly 'assuming' anything. I'm an engineer and I've got a pretty good handle on the laws of physics. When you decelerate a body in motion, you have to do something with the energy of momentum. By dissipating some of the energy into the helmet structure, you reduce the energy that is trasferred to the skull. It's pretty academic. Sure, it's academic that a helmet dissipates energy. What's less clear, though, is what degree of impact dissipation will yield some kind of predictable clinical result. |
| 2009-09-07 1:26 PM in reply to: #2393297 |
| 126 | Subject: RE: stopped running to tell a fellow cyclist to wear a helmet... drpete, you are wrong.........face it........ fwiw, i am a doctor too.....and trust me there is a lot of research that says one thing, yet we do another becuase of our powers of observation. 80% of the lit. is wrong at best. Imperical data is more important when it is all said and done. |
| 2009-09-07 3:54 PM in reply to: #2393349 |
Expert 1170 Southern Pines, NC | Subject: RE: stopped running to tell a fellow cyclist to wear a helmet... craig002 - 2009-09-07 2:26 PM drpete, you are wrong.........face it........ fwiw, i am a doctor too.....and trust me there is a lot of research that says one thing, yet we do another becuase of our powers of observation. 80% of the lit. is wrong at best. Imperical data is more important when it is all said and done. What am I "wrong" about? Advocating helmet use the same way you do despite no conclusive literature to support it because it's the right thing to do? My whole point was that you don't always need a prospective randomized controlled trial evaluating helmet use, but the fact of the matter is there isn't one. The anti-helmet crowd would point that out quite readily. Please read what I posted again before you call me "wrong." Thanks. Edited by DrPete 2009-09-07 3:59 PM |
| 2009-09-07 3:56 PM in reply to: #2393349 |
Expert 1170 Southern Pines, NC | Subject: RE: stopped running to tell a fellow cyclist to wear a helmet... craig002 - 2009-09-07 2:26 PM fwiw, i am a doctor too.....and trust me there is a lot of research that says one thing, yet we do another becuase of our powers of observation. 80% of the lit. is wrong at best. Imperical data is more important when it is all said and done. Personal observation is NOT empiric data, BTW. Small sample size, selection bias, etc. riddle it with biases. That's why there's this whole "evidence based medicine" thing now. Personal experience is certainly helpful and necessary, but there are plenty of times where the right answer is counterintuitive. Edited by DrPete 2009-09-07 4:05 PM |
| 2009-09-07 4:07 PM in reply to: #2393509 |
| 126 | Subject: RE: stopped running to tell a fellow cyclist to wear a helmet... ok......we agree..............so why are we here?....... oh that's right...........pushing this to page 7!!!!!!!!!!!!.... :-) thanks for the push... :-) craig002 |
| 2009-09-07 4:22 PM in reply to: #2393525 |
Expert 1170 Southern Pines, NC | Subject: RE: stopped running to tell a fellow cyclist to wear a helmet... craig002 - 2009-09-07 5:07 PM ok......we agree..............so why are we here?....... oh that's right...........pushing this to page 7!!!!!!!!!!!!.... :-) thanks for the push... :-) craig002 This just... might... do it... :D |
| 2009-09-07 4:48 PM in reply to: #2393539 |
| 126 | Subject: RE: stopped running to tell a fellow cyclist to wear a helmet... .......which the "common" career between the two of us brings to mind a perspective that was revealed to me by listening to the people on this thread discuss the issues....... i tried to leave out my career because, i dont want it to spill over in to my hobby............ but the fact of the matter is that because i give people advice all day everday, lends a bit more of likihood of me stopping a "stranger" and give them advice on how to make their life "better"..... whereas someone with a different career would likely not do the same..... anyway watching this thread brought to light why i did what i did and why i do what i do...............yup, it's wierd but i didnt realize this when i started the thread......... craig002 |
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