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Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread (Page 58)
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 2010-03-03 1:19 PM in reply to: #2705120 |
Champion  9600     Fountain Hills, AZ |  Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official ThreadYes, all pacing across the board has dropped. You really only have to look at my race results to see the efficacey of my training protocols FOR ME anyway as it's very specific to me. My open marathon times have improved, my Ironman splits have improved...except for the swim (sigh). The only place I have not really gotten much fatser? Olympics. I just don't do anough Olympic distance specificity to be at my best for those races, but those aren't the races I build for. I race IRONMAN, everything else is preperation. I spend so much time in that IM base effort as opposed to 10K efforts, although I do 10K tempo and interval work. But don't ascribe that purely to the way I base train, it's a result of total volume of training I do as well as the fact that I never stop training. Consistency is very important and the fact that I am consistent training the efforts I do improves my pacing at those efforts. So I don't mean to overstate the case for higher BASE intensity as being the sole answer, it works for me. It REALLY works for me on the bike. I push a higher relative HR/effort than most people I know on my long rides, which sets me up for not only top bike splits but solid runs off that bike. In 2006 I ran my first Marathon in 3:33 here in AZ. In 2007, I ran the same race in 2:59. In 2008, I ran a MUCH harder course in Boston in 2:58, which was likely a 2:50 on a course like AZ. IM run? 3:30 2007 AZ, 3:27 2007 Kona, 3:21 2009 AZ, Kona 2010..? I'm looking to hold that 3:21 on a much harder course. |
| 2010-03-03 3:01 PM in reply to: #2337428 |
Expert 1145  Ann Arbor, MI | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread I have a question about recovery periods for those of you who schedule them into your IM plan. I've been thinking of building a recovery week as every third week to allow muscles to rebuild and to try to prevent the recurring injury (ITBS) that nagged me in my first full year of tri training. I'm wondering how important it is to cut back on the intensity of the workouts as well as the total volume for the recovery week. For example, should I be swapping an aerobic run for the planned tempo interval run that week? |
| 2010-03-03 5:17 PM in reply to: #2705213 |
| Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread bryancd - 2010-03-03 2:19 PM Yes, all pacing across the board has dropped. You really only have to look at my race results to see the efficacey of my training protocols FOR ME anyway as it's very specific to me. My open marathon times have improved, my Ironman splits have improved...except for the swim (sigh). The only place I have not really gotten much fatser? Olympics. I just don't do anough Olympic distance specificity to be at my best for those races, but those aren't the races I build for. I race IRONMAN, everything else is preperation. I spend so much time in that IM base effort as opposed to 10K efforts, although I do 10K tempo and interval work. But don't ascribe that purely to the way I base train, it's a result of total volume of training I do as well as the fact that I never stop training. Consistency is very important and the fact that I am consistent training the efforts I do improves my pacing at those efforts. So I don't mean to overstate the case for higher BASE intensity as being the sole answer, it works for me. It REALLY works for me on the bike. I push a higher relative HR/effort than most people I know on my long rides, which sets me up for not only top bike splits but solid runs off that bike. In 2006 I ran my first Marathon in 3:33 here in AZ. In 2007, I ran the same race in 2:59. In 2008, I ran a MUCH harder course in Boston in 2:58, which was likely a 2:50 on a course like AZ. IM run? 3:30 2007 AZ, 3:27 2007 Kona, 3:21 2009 AZ, Kona 2010..? I'm looking to hold that 3:21 on a much harder course. Impressive times. I just did a medium-Long Run at an Aerobic/ Sub-threshold pace / RPE 5 out of 10 / and I was pleasantly surprised my avg was 7:17. I did the last mile at Race Pace 6:30 mile as a reference. And this was despite the fact it was hailing out and the winds were really gusting. My legs and lungs felt very strong and I believe it's a result of my Long Slow Distance Runs. So again, provided my Swimming and Biking fitness are up to par come race day; I don't believe an 8:30 Ironman Pace is a stretch for me. Your times and placing at IMAZ was impressive so obviously the way you are training is working incredibly well for you. And the saying that keeps coming to mind is: there are many different roads to Rome. Edited by Dream Chaser 2010-03-03 5:19 PM |
| 2010-03-03 5:45 PM in reply to: #2337428 |
Champion 9600 Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread Is this your first IM, Bob? |
 2010-03-03 5:57 PM in reply to: #2705535 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2010-03-03 5:58 PM in reply to: #2705914 |
| Master 1853 syracuse | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread Dream Chaser - 2010-03-03 6:17 PM bryancd - 2010-03-03 2:19 PM Yes, all pacing across the board has dropped. You really only have to look at my race results to see the efficacey of my training protocols FOR ME anyway as it's very specific to me. My open marathon times have improved, my Ironman splits have improved...except for the swim (sigh). The only place I have not really gotten much fatser? Olympics. I just don't do anough Olympic distance specificity to be at my best for those races, but those aren't the races I build for. I race IRONMAN, everything else is preperation. I spend so much time in that IM base effort as opposed to 10K efforts, although I do 10K tempo and interval work. But don't ascribe that purely to the way I base train, it's a result of total volume of training I do as well as the fact that I never stop training. Consistency is very important and the fact that I am consistent training the efforts I do improves my pacing at those efforts. So I don't mean to overstate the case for higher BASE intensity as being the sole answer, it works for me. It REALLY works for me on the bike. I push a higher relative HR/effort than most people I know on my long rides, which sets me up for not only top bike splits but solid runs off that bike. In 2006 I ran my first Marathon in 3:33 here in AZ. In 2007, I ran the same race in 2:59. In 2008, I ran a MUCH harder course in Boston in 2:58, which was likely a 2:50 on a course like AZ. IM run? 3:30 2007 AZ, 3:27 2007 Kona, 3:21 2009 AZ, Kona 2010..? I'm looking to hold that 3:21 on a much harder course. Impressive times. I just did a medium-Long Run at an Aerobic/ Sub-threshold pace / RPE 5 out of 10 / and I was pleasantly surprised my avg was 7:17. I did the last mile at Race Pace 6:30 mile as a reference. And this was despite the fact it was hailing out and the winds were really gusting. My legs and lungs felt very strong and I believe it's a result of my Long Slow Distance Runs. So again, provided my Swimming and Biking fitness are up to par come race day; I don't believe an 8:30 Ironman Pace is a stretch for me. Your times and placing at IMAZ was impressive so obviously the way you are training is working incredibly well for you. And the saying that keeps coming to mind is: there are many different roads to Rome. wow...coool....I didnt realize they had races on wednesdays....  but on a serious note, I dont see 8:30 as that much of a far fetched goal at all. But IMO, in addition to what Bryan is saying, as I stated on previous pages, volume plays a key role. I think you need 180-200 miles on the bike, 40+ mpw on the run as your three biggest weeks average, minimum, as part of a solid build, to hit that. than again, if you hit that, 7:30 long runs will be no issue for you, and not with your HR all over the map like it was today....sorry if your HR wasn't, but update your zone chart if its wrong....... im just a rookie, so take what I say with a grain of salt.... did you get a new WS yet? Edited by cusetri 2010-03-03 6:00 PM |
| 2010-03-03 6:01 PM in reply to: #2703608 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2010-03-03 6:07 PM in reply to: #2337428 |
| Champion 9600 Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread I'm fascinated by looking back and trying to figure this out, Bob, please excuse me for using you as the test subject! I have like 3 browser windows open with my results, your results and log, a calculator...  So in Jan of 2007, I ran RnR in 2:59:33, a 6:51 pace. 4 months later I show up for my first IM and run a 3:30, an 8:02 pace. So 30min difference, 1:12 pace differential. I also did my first Half in October of 2006 in 4:26, with a 1:29:23 run, a 6:49 pace. So my Half run pace was very close to my open Marathon pace which in turn were both about 1:10 faster than my IMAZ run split. I also landed square in the take your Half IM total time, double it, and add one hour, although I did it in plus 51min. Almost same exact course was well (SOMA Half vs. IMAZ). So I am sticking to take your open marathon time and add 30min or take your Half IM run split and double it and add 30min and to estimate your IM finish, take your best Half, double it, and add one hour. So Bob, in your case, look at your Halfs as an indicator as well. You have all the data point to target your IM run and train for that. I can't make the 3:40 number work, but a 3:50-4:00, yes, that I can see. |
| 2010-03-03 6:09 PM in reply to: #2705984 |
| Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread cusetri - 2010-03-03 6:58 PM Dream Chaser - 2010-03-03 6:17 PM bryancd - 2010-03-03 2:19 PM Yes, all pacing across the board has dropped. You really only have to look at my race results to see the efficacey of my training protocols FOR ME anyway as it's very specific to me. My open marathon times have improved, my Ironman splits have improved...except for the swim (sigh). The only place I have not really gotten much fatser? Olympics. I just don't do anough Olympic distance specificity to be at my best for those races, but those aren't the races I build for. I race IRONMAN, everything else is preperation. I spend so much time in that IM base effort as opposed to 10K efforts, although I do 10K tempo and interval work. But don't ascribe that purely to the way I base train, it's a result of total volume of training I do as well as the fact that I never stop training. Consistency is very important and the fact that I am consistent training the efforts I do improves my pacing at those efforts. So I don't mean to overstate the case for higher BASE intensity as being the sole answer, it works for me. It REALLY works for me on the bike. I push a higher relative HR/effort than most people I know on my long rides, which sets me up for not only top bike splits but solid runs off that bike. In 2006 I ran my first Marathon in 3:33 here in AZ. In 2007, I ran the same race in 2:59. In 2008, I ran a MUCH harder course in Boston in 2:58, which was likely a 2:50 on a course like AZ. IM run? 3:30 2007 AZ, 3:27 2007 Kona, 3:21 2009 AZ, Kona 2010..? I'm looking to hold that 3:21 on a much harder course. Impressive times. I just did a medium-Long Run at an Aerobic/ Sub-threshold pace / RPE 5 out of 10 / and I was pleasantly surprised my avg was 7:17. I did the last mile at Race Pace 6:30 mile as a reference. And this was despite the fact it was hailing out and the winds were really gusting. My legs and lungs felt very strong and I believe it's a result of my Long Slow Distance Runs. So again, provided my Swimming and Biking fitness are up to par come race day; I don't believe an 8:30 Ironman Pace is a stretch for me. Your times and placing at IMAZ was impressive so obviously the way you are training is working incredibly well for you. And the saying that keeps coming to mind is: there are many different roads to Rome. wow...coool....I didnt realize they had races on wednesdays.... but on a serious note, I dont see 8:30 as that much of a far fetched goal at all. But IMO, in addition to what Bryan is saying, as I stated on previous pages, volume plays a key role. I think you need 180-200 miles on the bike, 40+ mpw on the run as your three biggest weeks average, minimum, as part of a solid build, to hit that. than again, if you hit that, 7:30 long runs will be no issue for you, and not with your HR all over the map like it was today....sorry if your HR wasn't, but update your zone chart if its wrong....... im just a rookie, so take what I say with a grain of salt.... did you get a new WS yet? My HR was all over the map because of the wind. hills and flats. I focused on keeping the effort consistent despite the weather and terrain. On a flat course, consistent weather conditions I can keep the HR and Pace almost perfectly even. As for the WS, I'm gonna stick with my ol' faithful to next year. |
| 2010-03-03 6:10 PM in reply to: #2705983 |
| Champion 9600 Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread PennState - 2010-03-03 4:57 PM yeats - 2010-03-03 4:01 PM I have a question about recovery periods for those of you who schedule them into your IM plan. I've been thinking of building a recovery week as every third week to allow muscles to rebuild and to try to prevent the recurring injury (ITBS) that nagged me in my first full year of tri training. I'm wondering how important it is to cut back on the intensity of the workouts as well as the total volume for the recovery week. For example, should I be swapping an aerobic run for the planned tempo interval run that week? My opinion... Yes, very important to have recovery weeks. They should allow for active recovery and have less volume, which includes a lower volume of high intensity work as well. I have used 3 successive weeks of build with 1 week of recovery. Of course what works for you may not be what works for me... X2, that's a solid protocol. Less volume, no intensity BUT, keep working that IM /aerobic pace in the shorter bike/runs. I also would take one day off per week as per my coach's instructions. |
| 2010-03-03 6:16 PM in reply to: #2705964 |
| Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread bryancd - 2010-03-03 6:45 PM Is this your first IM, Bob? Exactly. This is my first Ironman. And when I Post my Ironman Marathon Goal Pace and someone who has much more experience than me, and just finished 30th overall at a huge M-dot race, says my training is "problematic" and "I'll need trixy dust to make that Goal happen", it made me truly question if that was a realstic goal. So then based off of what you said, "adding 30 to 40 seconds to my aerobic Long Run pace" my goal now seems uber-conservative. Please put yourself in my shoes. I'm newbie as newbie gets, trying to make sense of a lot contradictory, and ultimately very confusing advice.
Edited by Dream Chaser 2010-03-03 6:17 PM |
| 2010-03-03 6:24 PM in reply to: #2706013 |
| Champion 9600 Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread Dream Chaser - 2010-03-03 5:16 PM bryancd - 2010-03-03 6:45 PM Is this your first IM, Bob? Exactly. This is my first Ironman. And when I Post what my Run Goal and someone who has much more experience than me, and just finished 30th overall at an M-dot race, says my training is "problematic" and "I'll need trixy dust to make that Goal happen", it made me truly question if that was a realstic goal. So then based off of what you said, "adding 30 to 40 seconds to my aerobic Long Run pace" my goal seems uber-conservative. Please put yourself in my shoes. I'm newbie as newbie gets, trying to make sense of a lot contradictory, and ultimately very confuising advice.
It is confusing, and I am sorry if it seems I am giving you a hard time. I'm not, or at least that's not my intention. I had the benefit of a coach to just hand me what to do and I did it. And to be honest, I really don't KNOW how to make anyone better or faster beyond me because I am not a coach and I have only 5 years in this sport. All I know is what I DID. And I'm looking back at that and the RESULTS which came from that and drawing conclusions, which really only apply to me. BUT, they do jibe with what is generally accepted as ways to estimate your IM pacing. I think you need to start running on your own, at an aerobic pace that you want to target as your IM run pace - 30 to 40 seconds. You haven't been doing that, I think you should have for the past couple months, but you have lot's of base fitness to build off of. The only other thing I do know is that the IM run is so important that at the end of the day, run, run often. Don't fixate on time goals yet, just get out and put in the mileage. Your training will tell you where you will be. I'm putting the carriage before the horse a bit here. Again, I'm sorry, I just really got into the data and get carried away. You will beat Mike, though. |
| 2010-03-03 6:32 PM in reply to: #2706013 |
| Master 1572 PA | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread Dream Chaser - 2010-03-03 7:16 PM My advice for people doing their first IM. Train hard, stay injury free, have a race plan that is flexible; then go have fun and take what the day gives you. Do the work right now. Then come beginning of July you'll have a pretty good feel for where you are. There are so many other things to IM...nutrition being huge. You just can't say how you're going to feel nutritionally 13 miles into a run after you just swam for an hour and biked 112. Point being, do the work and the numbers will take care of themselves. Trying to KQ, well then every minute counts and you probably have to be more intentional, but even still, your fitness will be what it is.bryancd - 2010-03-03 6:45 PM Is this your first IM, Bob? Exactly. This is my first Ironman. And when I Post my Ironman Marathon Goal Pace and someone who has much more experience than me, and just finished 30th overall at a huge M-dot race, says my training is "problematic" and "I'll need trixy dust to make that Goal happen", it made me truly question if that was a realstic goal. So then based off of what you said, "adding 30 to 40 seconds to my aerobic Long Run pace" my goal now seems uber-conservative. Please put yourself in my shoes. I'm newbie as newbie gets, trying to make sense of a lot contradictory, and ultimately very confusing advice.
Edited by gopennstate 2010-03-03 6:34 PM |
| 2010-03-03 6:45 PM in reply to: #2706030 |
| Master 1853 syracuse | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread bryancd - 2010-03-03 7:24 PM Dream Chaser - 2010-03-03 5:16 PM It is confusing, and I am sorry if it seems I am giving you a hard time. I'm not, or at least that's not my intention. I had the benefit of a coach to just hand me what to do and I did it. And to be honest, I really don't KNOW how to make anyone better or faster beyond me because I am not a coach and I have only 5 years in this sport. All I know is what I DID. And I'm looking back at that and the RESULTS which came from that and drawing conclusions, which really only apply to me. BUT, they do jibe with what is generally accepted as ways to estimate your IM pacing. I think you need to start running on your own, at an aerobic pace that you want to target as your IM run pace - 30 to 40 seconds. You haven't been doing that, I think you should have for the past couple months, but you have lot's of base fitness to build off of. The only other thing I do know is that the IM run is so important that at the end of the day, run, run often. Don't fixate on time goals yet, just get out and put in the mileage. Your training will tell you where you will be. I'm putting the carriage before the horse a bit here. Again, I'm sorry, I just really got into the data and get carried away. You will beat Mike, though. bryancd - 2010-03-03 6:45 PM Is this your first IM, Bob? Exactly. This is my first Ironman. And when I Post what my Run Goal and someone who has much more experience than me, and just finished 30th overall at an M-dot race, says my training is "problematic" and "I'll need trixy dust to make that Goal happen", it made me truly question if that was a realstic goal. So then based off of what you said, "adding 30 to 40 seconds to my aerobic Long Run pace" my goal seems uber-conservative. Please put yourself in my shoes. I'm newbie as newbie gets, trying to make sense of a lot contradictory, and ultimately very confuising advice.
[/QUOTE]you gotta try harder than that to get me going..... i'm just out to finish. |
| 2010-03-03 6:48 PM in reply to: #2337428 |
| Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread |
| 2010-03-03 6:50 PM in reply to: #2706043 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2010-03-03 6:51 PM in reply to: #2706065 |
| Master 1853 syracuse | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread it is a good thread.....a good core group of guys.....and gals  |
| 2010-03-03 6:51 PM in reply to: #2706065 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2010-03-03 9:07 PM in reply to: #2706069 |
| Pro 4608 Brooklyn, NY | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread PennState - 2010-03-03 7:51 PM Dream Chaser - 2010-03-03 7:48 PM yes, that I agree with. The forum that is the most helpful, and yet civil. Wonder why it's so good... I know, I know... it's because I'm in charge! Thanks everyone. This is by far the best Ironman training thread. (people I am kidding... a big kidder)And so modest  |
| 2010-03-03 9:08 PM in reply to: #2337428 |
| Champion 9600 Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread It will also be the fastest if I have my way... |
| 2010-03-03 9:35 PM in reply to: #2706289 |
| Master 1572 PA | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread bryancd - 2010-03-03 10:08 PMIt will also be the fastest if I have my way... You're damn right. |
| 2010-03-03 10:24 PM in reply to: #2703831 |
| Master 1471 Dunedin | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread dharris13 - 2010-03-03 12:09 AM I used the HIM plan last year and it was great. During the training I often felt very challenged, but other than bonking because I dropped ALL of my nutrition in T1, I felt awesome after my race. So far, I'm following the IM plan closer than I did the HIM plan and I have no doubt I'll be prepared. One note...I come from a swimming background and never feel like there's enough swimming, accept when I hit the 4,000 yd mark (once!). Since it makes up such a small part of the race I wouldn't worry about this if I were you, though.Anyone use/or are using any of the BT plans? Im looking to use the Beginner plan seeing as this is my first IM...any suggestions if this is good or not..or should i try and use a dif one? |
| 2010-03-03 10:33 PM in reply to: #2705535 |
| Master 1471 Dunedin | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread I'm on a recovery week now (using a BT plan). Yesterday I biked for an hour and ran for half an hour. The plan stated an RPE of 3. Ha! I used that measly half hour run to see how fast I could go. My quads are burning today and I know that's not the point of a recovery week...to each his own. The plan I'm using wants you to RECOVER and I say "jeebus, it's ONLY 30 minutes, what harm could I do?!". When the volume starts really getting upped, I'm sure I'll plan on taking the recovery part of weeks like this more seriously. yeats - 2010-03-03 4:01 PMI have a question about recovery periods for those of you who schedule them into your IM plan. I've been thinking of building a recovery week as every third week to allow muscles to rebuild and to try to prevent the recurring injury (ITBS) that nagged me in my first full year of tri training. I'm wondering how important it is to cut back on the intensity of the workouts as well as the total volume for the recovery week. For example, should I be swapping an aerobic run for the planned tempo interval run that week? |
| 2010-03-04 8:45 AM in reply to: #2337428 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2010-03-04 9:25 AM in reply to: #2706792 |
| Master 1572 PA | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread PennState - 2010-03-04 9:45 AM Anyone else excited about getting outside for a ride or run this weekend? Supposed to get into the 40s here I AM!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And i bet Cuse is too!!!! |
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