Women to be cleared for combat roles (Page 7)

And in the end...how did it work out?  did civilization end in the US?  Were Women able to do the job of a fireman or policeman?  Or did they fail miserably and society has never attempted it again?

Just fine.  Ultimately it boils down to fear of change.  At least in my opinion.

i'm saying i don't like war no matter who is dying for no reason.  why does it make a difference if it is sons or daughters?  i don't agree with "women and children first."  really, according to some in this thread, women are so useless and helpless and distracting, why would you WANT us to survive?  why is it important for a woman's life to be more valuable than a man?  i don't agree with that at all.  when i say i want equal rights, i mean it.

Oh boy... Page 8 already... 

I think I'm fairly qualified to give an informed opinion about this.  

I went to an all-male military college when it was integrated.  I served in Male-only units and integrated units in the Marine Corps.  I led female troops and had female superiors throughout my career.  I carry in my heart 2 female troops that were killed in combat who had worked for me on the deployments before they were killed.  I think I've seen what happens before, during, and after integration.  

Bottom line up-front.  Two rules for integration.

1) If a woman could hack it, they should be allowed in to any unit in the military.  

2) If the military puts a quota or even a goal percentage for integration of women, the infantry units will not be as effective as it was before integration.  

There are really 4 tiers that I'll use to identify most roles in the land military.

Tier 4) Basic Support.  This includes supply, admin, logistics, rear-echelon types. Women have been there since the first world war.

Tier 3) Combat Support.  This includes motor transport, construction engineers, civil affairs, artillery, direct air support controllers, hospital corpsmen/medics, nurses, doctors.  Also includes Battalion Staffs up to and including infantry battalions.  Women are already in these roles.

Tier 2) Direct Combat. This would be the infantry, mechanized infantry, amphibs/bradleys, tanks, artillery (in the arty sections themselves), combat engineers (like I was), and field corpsmen/medics.  These have just been opened by this announcement from Panetta.

Tier 2a) Specialized Infantry. If you're an infantryman, you can qualify to a more specialized group like the Green Berets, SEALS, Force Recon, Ranger Battalions/Marine Rifle Battalions (because these two are more specialized than the regular straight-leg infantry).  Although these have been opened, I think this is where there may be some strain.  I'll explain further.

Tier 1) Special Operations.  This would include Delta and DevGru.  I don't think we'll ever see women operators, but they already serve in the support elements of both units.

If they do follow my rule 1, that would mean you would have a very few women in Tier 2 and even fewer in Tier 2a.  I don't believe you'll ever see a woman in Tier 1.  I don't think there will be an issue with women being in Tanks, amphibs/bradleys, or artillery (except that a 155 round is pretty heavy...), but to be in the infantry or combat engineers (basically infantry that carry explosives) they will need to prove themselves before they ever get to the unit.

How do you make sure they "hack it"?  The Marine Corps has separate boot camp battalions for women from the men.  That has been evaluated by every agency and found to be the best system in the military for training raw recruits.  Women Drill Instructors who do the day-to-day training know when a woman recruit is playing games whereas male DIs would pull-back on training if they have a woman playing games with them.  

In order to be a woman and go into the infantry units you should have to be a top-3 or 5 graduate in a platoon (of 55 or so) and you must volunteer at the beginning of boot camp so they can evaluate you as you go through training with an eye to whether you're going to be able to be an infantryman.  

Once the top-3 or 5 female recruit graduates from boot camp, they go to MCT/School of Infantry with the men where they must pass every test, every training evolution, everything.  If they fail, they can go into another military occupational specialty (MOS).

I personally would not like to see women in infantry platoons because I DO think women do add professionalism to units.  The thing is I don't want infantrymen to act professional.  I want them disciplined, but I want them to be the nasty, disgusting, knuckle-draggers who have no problem tossing a puppy off a cliff (youtube it) because those are the guys who will jam a bayonet in a guys chest to make sure he's dead and isn't playing dead and then they'll joke about it after the fact (youtube it).  I've seen these guys in the field.  They're disgusting, they're mean, they're bullys to each other and to everyone else around them, they are the personification of "no greater friend, no worse enemy" but they definitely lean toward the "no worse enemy."  If you add professionalism to that mix, you lose a mean-ness that protects them when the fight turns really ugly.  These are the guys who are never the same.  If you meet a Marine Infantryman after he has discharged from the military, he's still got a funny look in his eyes.  Eugene Sledge called them "the Old Breed" and when he was asked what skills he learned in the Marine Corps, he told a girl at Auburn's admissions desk "They taught me how to kill Japs.  I got pretty good at it."  It's a survival mechanism to have that mean-ness.  Some women can hack it.  Most cannot.  If you put women in those units (not supporting those units like in the Lioness program (google it) or in the Company HQ, but in the actual squads and platoons) you will reduce their ability to "locate, close-with, and destroy the enemy through superior fire and maneuver."

How do I get that?  I was at the Citadel when it was integrated.  The first woman was a tool of the ACLU and absolutely not the right person to be the first woman at that school.  The school changed a little that year.  The next year 4 new females.  2 were absolutely outstanding and deserved to be there.  2 were not.  The two that were not changed the systems and traditions at the school as they dropped out of school.  The school now has about 15% women and it is more professional, less mean (less hazing) and is succeeding at being a great school.  But it definitely changed.  It does produce exceptional, professional people just like it did when I was there. But again, that's not the purpose of an infantry unit.

I don't want professional infantrymen, I want killers.  

Again, if a woman can hack it, then put tests in-place to let her qualify, but I worry that's not what they'll do in this effort to integrate the units.  They'll make a quota, then drop the requirements for the number.  I know of 2 women who I worked with in the Marine Corps who I could see succeed/survive in an infantry platoon.  They were both officers but only 2 out of hundreds that I served with...

And what of women registering for selective service....to the point that future military units may be equal number of men and women if the all-volunteer military doesn't sustain itself......how does that look to you? 

If that's the part of your answe3r that is your opinion, then fine.....as long as it's just an opinion, because the reality is that it has caused ALOT of problems that didn't exist before.  That's not an opinion, that's from experience. 

Because of course women can't break things and kill people!

Because of course women can't break things and kill people!

You can't fold a map.  That's why?

You can't fold a map.  That's why?

Nope, not offended. I see your post as ignorant since women have been in combat plenty, just not in official roles.  Having them there CAN be a hindrance, but isn't always so.  Women didn't used to be allowed in combat aircraft either, but I can attest first hand that we're not a hindrance.  (C130 pilot who's been shot at)  I can fly the plane just as good and sometimes better than most.  Being female has nothing to do with that and no one on any crew I've ever worked with has been unprofessional.

Eventually after some adjustment, most people will get used to it and the environment will attain a new normal.  There will always be those who are opposed.  Still happens with blacks sometimes, and of course with the new policy on homosexuals some are still up in arms.  Eventually everything blows over.

Quoting for posterity. 
This is the end of the thread in my opinion.
Thank you Brittany for your service and this post. 

Oh boy... Page 8 already... 

I think I'm fairly qualified to give an informed opinion about this.  

I went to an all-male military college when it was integrated.  I served in Male-only units and integrated units in the Marine Corps.  I led female troops and had female superiors throughout my career.  I carry in my heart 2 female troops that were killed in combat who had worked for me on the deployments before they were killed.  I think I've seen what happens before, during, and after integration.  

Bottom line up-front.  Two rules for integration.

1) If a woman could hack it, they should be allowed in to any unit in the military.  

2) If the military puts a quota or even a goal percentage for integration of women, the infantry units will not be as effective as it was before integration.  

There are really 4 tiers that I'll use to identify most roles in the land military.

Tier 4) Basic Support.  This includes supply, admin, logistics, rear-echelon types. Women have been there since the first world war.

Tier 3) Combat Support.  This includes motor transport, construction engineers, civil affairs, artillery, direct air support controllers, hospital corpsmen/medics, nurses, doctors.  Also includes Battalion Staffs up to and including infantry battalions.  Women are already in these roles.

Tier 2) Direct Combat. This would be the infantry, mechanized infantry, amphibs/bradleys, tanks, artillery (in the arty sections themselves), combat engineers (like I was), and field corpsmen/medics.  These have just been opened by this announcement from Panetta.

Tier 2a) Specialized Infantry. If you're an infantryman, you can qualify to a more specialized group like the Green Berets, SEALS, Force Recon, Ranger Battalions/Marine Rifle Battalions (because these two are more specialized than the regular straight-leg infantry).  Although these have been opened, I think this is where there may be some strain.  I'll explain further.

Tier 1) Special Operations.  This would include Delta and DevGru.  I don't think we'll ever see women operators, but they already serve in the support elements of both units.

If they do follow my rule 1, that would mean you would have a very few women in Tier 2 and even fewer in Tier 2a.  I don't believe you'll ever see a woman in Tier 1.  I don't think there will be an issue with women being in Tanks, amphibs/bradleys, or artillery (except that a 155 round is pretty heavy...), but to be in the infantry or combat engineers (basically infantry that carry explosives) they will need to prove themselves before they ever get to the unit.

How do you make sure they "hack it"?  The Marine Corps has separate boot camp battalions for women from the men.  That has been evaluated by every agency and found to be the best system in the military for training raw recruits.  Women Drill Instructors who do the day-to-day training know when a woman recruit is playing games whereas male DIs would pull-back on training if they have a woman playing games with them.  

In order to be a woman and go into the infantry units you should have to be a top-3 or 5 graduate in a platoon (of 55 or so) and you must volunteer at the beginning of boot camp so they can evaluate you as you go through training with an eye to whether you're going to be able to be an infantryman.  

Once the top-3 or 5 female recruit graduates from boot camp, they go to MCT/School of Infantry with the men where they must pass every test, every training evolution, everything.  If they fail, they can go into another military occupational specialty (MOS).

I personally would not like to see women in infantry platoons because I DO think women do add professionalism to units.  The thing is I don't want infantrymen to act professional.  I want them disciplined, but I want them to be the nasty, disgusting, knuckle-draggers who have no problem tossing a puppy off a cliff (youtube it) because those are the guys who will jam a bayonet in a guys chest to make sure he's dead and isn't playing dead and then they'll joke about it after the fact (youtube it).  I've seen these guys in the field.  They're disgusting, they're mean, they're bullys to each other and to everyone else around them, they are the personification of "no greater friend, no worse enemy" but they definitely lean toward the "no worse enemy."  If you add professionalism to that mix, you lose a mean-ness that protects them when the fight turns really ugly.  These are the guys who are never the same.  If you meet a Marine Infantryman after he has discharged from the military, he's still got a funny look in his eyes.  Eugene Sledge called them "the Old Breed" and when he was asked what skills he learned in the Marine Corps, he told a girl at Auburn's admissions desk "They taught me how to kill Japs.  I got pretty good at it."  It's a survival mechanism to have that mean-ness.  Some women can hack it.  Most cannot.  If you put women in those units (not supporting those units like in the Lioness program (google it) or in the Company HQ, but in the actual squads and platoons) you will reduce their ability to "locate, close-with, and destroy the enemy through superior fire and maneuver."

How do I get that?  I was at the Citadel when it was integrated.  The first woman was a tool of the ACLU and absolutely not the right person to be the first woman at that school.  The school changed a little that year.  The next year 4 new females.  2 were absolutely outstanding and deserved to be there.  2 were not.  The two that were not changed the systems and traditions at the school as they dropped out of school.  The school now has about 15% women and it is more professional, less mean (less hazing) and is succeeding at being a great school.  But it definitely changed.  It does produce exceptional, professional people just like it did when I was there. But again, that's not the purpose of an infantry unit.

I don't want professional infantrymen, I want killers.  

Again, if a woman can hack it, then put tests in-place to let her qualify, but I worry that's not what they'll do in this effort to integrate the units.  They'll make a quota, then drop the requirements for the number.  I know of 2 women who I worked with in the Marine Corps who I could see succeed/survive in an infantry platoon.  They were both officers but only 2 out of hundreds that I served with...

Nobody uses paper maps anymore!!  Besides since when do men use maps or ask for directions?

You obviously never spent Saturday wandering the woods in Quantico VA.  When your shiny gps thing runs out of juice, you need a map.  When you're designing a defense, you need a map, and when you call for fire, you better have a map.  

I tell you folding maps is on the Y chromosome.  It's not your fault, you just can't do it...