How's your child's science curriculum? I bet it's not as "creative" as this one! (Page 7)

The sad fact in all of this is that while this is all fascinating conversational material... as far as day to day living goes... it does not make any difference what so ever.

The Big Bang, and the expansion and contraction of the universe over billions of years (infinite years ?), has absolutely no bearing on my life what so ever. It has no more bearing on my life than it raining for 40 days and nights and flooding the Earth, or Snow White and the 7 dwarfs. It just doesn't. Sorry if you think it does.

Now there are those in life that want to make it their life and go to school and study such things and research various topics and how it all works. I'm really glad they do because I love being continually surprised learning new stuff about the world we live in.  I'm pretty sure those are not the ones that readily accept man lived with dinosaurs.

And unless you are a geologist, or biologist, or geneticist... or what ever... if you really believe the world is only 10,000 years old and man walk with dinosaurs... I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it does not matter one bit on getting a job, providing for your family, and paying your bills. It just doesn't. Sorry if you think it does.

Guess what...there are people from all walks of life, that believe different things. Get over it. What I really can't stand, and where these things usually wind up... is the condescending attitude that underscores this subject that if you believe is some other origin theory other than a scientific one, that you are completely stupid. And once again, both sides sit in complete self righteousness that their belief is the only real true one. Like two peas in a pod.... yet claiming they are totally different.

... because let's be honest, the only real purpose for posting such a thing as "the quiz"... is to throw up an example of "the other side" as to how ridiculous and ignorant they are. You can call it a discussion if it makes you feel better, but it isn't. Sorry if you think it is.

Couldn't you say the exact same thing about 80% of school curriculum?  How does reading Shakespeare affect your daily life?  How about the Boston Tea Party, or isosceles triangles, or dissecting frogs?  I'd like to think schools aspire to more than just helping people survive daily life.

I think the pursuit of knowledge is a fundamental human drive. You can argue that cosmology had no bearing on your daily life - and you're right, it doesn't. You can say that about a lot of things you've learned in life or in school. You could also say that about watching the daily news. Who really cares what happens in Syria, or Chechnya. It doesn't affect me, does it? You could say the same thing about the space program. Except you use technology developed and spun out of the space program every day.

Learning how to ask questions and find answers without blindly accepting what 're told are "facts" certainly can affect your daily life. Education is directly related to income. Whether you learn critical thinking working on a Ph.D. or from the Jesuits doesn't really matter, but having those skills are important.

This has been a pretty respectful thread. What I saw was that we had a great discussion on how science and religion can coexist. So even if the original intent was to make fun of one "side" or the other, the opposite actually happened.

Yes I can... that 80% of school didn't have a darn thing with me living my life. Shakespeare can broaden my literature horizon... but in the end it is nothing more than mental stimulation no different than playing a video game. It's entertainment. My sister read probably 6-8 hours a day, she has quite a literary base. I went out side.

And U.S. history can give you some sort of meaning to your life, and perhaps give you a social connection to your community, but the past is gone. It can add a certain value or enrichment, but again... it's really just entertainment.

Exposing kids to all that is a great thing, because in fact they can pursue a literary field and put food on their table, or become a historian and have a fulfilling career... we all have to do something to fill our time and provide a living.

However, that is not what this is about. This is about demeaning those that believe something different as to be so ridiculous to think Jesus had a pet dinosaur. I know he didn't, but some one that does does not change my life one darn bit... no more than millions of Hindus believing in Vishnu. I don't care.

I was brought up in a Baptist home... I managed to survive. I make my living off of physics, and I'm quite fond of it. I was exposed to that in school too and that is what I was interested in. It all managed to miraculously work out... and as far as I know, the world is still turning.

But for people that hold up scientific exploration in such high regard, and are so interested in advancing the human condition in this world... those that would probably consider themselves "enlightened".... why the constant need to feed the ego by improving social standing off the back of others who are ridiculed? This thread is in a "civilized tone" and nobody here is being nasty... but let's be honest, it is what it is.

Origin theory has absolutely no practical use in day to day living. It is mere entertainment, just like me posting on a forum. It's just entertainment. But how about we just let people live their life and believe what they want to believe how ever they see fit. What a concept that would be. Because you can shut down the Christian school teaching about Jesus's pet dinosaur, but what are you going to do about the other 3 billion humans that have a different origin theory belief than you?

I'm talking about the original post... it is not held up as a something to be proud of. But it might not be a "school" quiz.. it could be a Sunday school quiz. Who knows?

The threads here, and the people engaging are some of the most civilized and interesting discussions I have had on the web. And yes, I take Biblical studies to be figurative and not literal. I can't comprehend how science disproves God, or how someone's faith, takes away from scientific discovery. For all I know, God gave me my brain, and he fully intended for me to use it to my full extent to explore his incredible creation. Perhaps he is happy as hell we figured out the Higgs Boson particle.

But when we want to learn, there is a different process that happens. When we want to inflate our ego, then that is a different discussion. We all know how to do it. (I'm doing it right now.)  This topic has been argued for thousands of years, and there isn't one single question or point made that has not been done a thousand times over. It is never going to end either. So what is the point? Believe what you want to believe. Base your understanding of the world on what you want to base it on. And allow others to do the same.

And if you are so outraged over a 4th grader being taught Jesus walked with dinosaurs, then perhaps we should abolish Santa and the Easter bunny too. I mean seriously... the Tooth Fairy?

OK, I agree with you there (mostly). And yes, it was a private religious-based school, so you are getting exactly what you paid for. I don't quite get the dinosaur thing, but whatever. You and I both know there are extremists on both sides of the faith issue. I can't stand Richard Dawkins, he's a fanatical atheist and to me a closed mind is a closed mind. Personally I didn't have much faith until well after I became a scientist.

If Santa were taught as part of a 4th grade science class -- pretty sure it would come under some level of scrutiny.   

And I assume that is why the OP posted it -- not because children are being taught that dinosaurs walked with men -- but because it was being taught as "science".    Teaching kids to say "were you there?" when presented with alternative perspectives is antithetical to scientific inquiry and critical thinking.  Which -- even if the kids don't intend to pursue a career in biology -- is a major handicap to saddle them with.   

To take your broader point -- I do agree that there's an element of condescension that unfortunately enters into the picture.  Nasty comments may be entertaining, but typically only serve to entrench opposition rather than change minds.   

But I disagree strongly with your notion of "what is the point?", or that these discussions are never going to end.  People debated the notion of geocentrism vs. heliocentrism for centuries, but today, I think it's fair to say the discussion is indeed over.  As for the origins of life -- of course people get convinced to change their minds, as they hear compelling evidence and new logic.  Not quickly, but over time.  (And in both directions!)   Not sure what good is accomplished by discouraging debate.    

Any extremist bothers me. Yes is was a curriculum based on what those parents wanted them to learn. I have never understood the connection that one cancels the other. Faith, belief, and opinion are one thing. Observation, facts, and reason are another.

OK, I guess you have a point if the Easter Bunny was being taught in biology.

However... this is not really an exercise in proper school curriculum other parents should teach their kids and the possibilities a strong scientific base exposes kids to in their future. This is an exercise in opinion, ego, and belief. And the topic is origin theory. while fascinating as it is, none of us was there. This topic will never be solved, and holding up quiz as some sort of proof of a stated opinion or belief isn't going to acomplish anything... other than get a good laugh right?

I am swapping off of nights and usually that makes me grouchy. I'll be OK in a couple of days.

But I did watch a show on the science channel tonight of the formation of our solar system and the Earth. Absolutely fascinating... but it is just a TV show... entertainment.... unless of course your job is a astrophysicist, or a TV producer.

IMHO was a horribly prepared test and the information presented as "science" a waste of precious 4th grade science topic time. 

Hey Powerman,

Please don't try to state what my "real purpose" was in making the OP.  I very clearly stated what it was--it was concern that there were glaring errors in a science curriculum, and that teaching those things to kids does them and society a disservice.  Really.  I think it is something that should be discussed. 

I will say that I enjoy conversations about things like this much more than, say, what people are watching on TV, but that is because I don't watch, and don't care to watch, TV.  I do, OTOH, care quite a bit about children and education.  I got my Masters in Education and spent a few years in the classroom before leaving that to do basic science research.  I am also married to someone who was also a certified teacher and taught for seven years before leaving teaching to start a nonprofit dedicated to teaching kids about the natural world and giving them experiences in nature.  We homeschool our kids and take education very seriously in our household. 

The OP was to start a discussion about what is appropriate science curriculum in a school.  That's it.

Does it affect my day to day being.  Not an iota. 

Does my purpose on this planet and why things are what they are matter to me?  Yes.  Casually, and not very often but self reflection, wondering why the bigger picture is... yes, that does effect my life.  Not in a huge, daily way.  But it does affect my perception on the world around me.

I do agree however... "believe what you want to believe"..

OK, thought about this some more. Yes, it does affect your daily life. Knowledge is power. Critical thinking leads to logic, questions, and new knowledge. Take that away and people are easily controlled. In the 1600's Galileo was charged with heresy by the Catholic Church because he challenged the 'fact' that we live in a geocentric universe. Today we see women being killed by the Taliban for seeking an education.

So you can point to any one particular thing (i.e. The Big Bang) and say it knowing about that doesn't affect your daily life. And you can call that a science test, but it isn't. But education, economic, and religious freedom definitely impact your earning capacity. Studies where they have looked at these factors show a statistically significant correlation between a country's degree of religious freedom and GDP.

Brian, I'm sure you could list probably thousands of ways in which our understanding of evolution and genetics has improved the lives of ordinary people, even if they don't know, understand or believe it.  I thought your colleague who believes the earth is young but who is a smart and effective researcher was really interesting, but I wonder how effective he would be if his scientific understanding in his field was not consistent with the current state of knowledge?  If he didn't believe in the current thought on proteins or something (you do something medical-researchy, right?) would it matter how smart or capable he was?  He may be a great medical researcher, but I have to think he'd be able to make much smaller contributions in areas where his beliefs are at odds with our scientific understanding of how the world works - say plate tectonics for example, and that I think can hurt us all.

You all forget the work of the Prophet Douglas Adams, who eloquently said:

"There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened."

I just have this to say to all of you: 42

OK, that's fair. You have a personal interest, and it grabbed your attention based on your experience and perspective. I apologize if you took my comments as a personal attack. I got some sleep, so I am feeling better.

The topic at hand is non science being taught in a science class... and sure, I have an opinion on that and can just leave it at that. But we also know, that the "subject" isn't dinosaurs, but Origin Theory. That's the big picture. That once again Creationism and science is butting heads, and those of a particular faith are pushing their beliefs.... in a school where it isn't a surprise that they would do such a thing. That isn't going to change anytime soon. It happens every day, all over the world, and yet here we are at 7 billion people and it is still turning.

Yep.  Brain fart on my part.  Trying to do too many things at one time.  Good catch.

drewb8 - 2013-04-30 12:06 PM

Samyg - 2013-04-30 10:02 AM

You all forget the work of the Prophet Douglas Adams, who eloquently said:

"There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened."

I just have this to say to all of you: 42

I don't know, without any actual evidence that the answer is 42 sounds more like it's faith .

But... But... It's written in the Book!

drewb8 - 2013-04-30 12:06 PM

Samyg - 2013-04-30 10:02 AM

You all forget the work of the Prophet Douglas Adams, who eloquently said:

"There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened."

I just have this to say to all of you: 42

I don't know, without any actual evidence that the answer is 42 sounds more like it's faith .

Faith? 42 (and thus the numbers 4 and 2) is a powerful number. I am 44 yrs old. 2 yrs ago I was 42. In 2 years I am going to be able to say that 4 years ago I was 42. And don't get me started about how the number 42 can finally unite all mythological, religious, and scientific theories in one swift and easy to understand mantra.

Really, don't get me started because I am making this as I go and I have no idea how to start.