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2008-01-15 11:13 AM

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Elite
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Subject: Why do people not train at full distance?
When it comes to training I see two camps:

1: Train up to a point where you believe you can finish your distance (1/2, IM, Marathon)

and

2: Train at the same distance or beyond that of the event.


Why do people, especially for marathons, not train all the way up to marathon distance? I am not knocking anyone here, I am just curious, it is something I have never understood. In my mind I believe it is better to do the same distances, albeit not at race speed, and then know you can do the distance, then come race day, up your speed. Is there any benefit of not reaching the distance before an event? This has nothing to do with tapering before an event.



2008-01-15 11:16 AM
in reply to: #1157314

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Elite
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Hattiesburg, Mississippi
Subject: RE: Why do people not train at full distance?

1. Time

2. Injury prevention.
Especially with running, the more distance you do, the more likely you are to have an injury.  So it usually comes down to what distance can I do, still do well in the race, and not get injured.
The UF XC team runs about 80-100miles/wk and there meets are 10K races.  So it does happen.

2008-01-15 11:22 AM
in reply to: #1157314

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Pro
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Subject: RE: Why do people not train at full distance?
Personally, it's all about doing the least amount of training to accomplish my goals so I can allocate the time I save for other hobbies, family, work, school. If I only have to train 10 hours per week to accomplish my goals and can save 10 hours for other stuff, as opposed to putting in 20 hours per week and lose that 10 hours for family, it's not worth it.

I do this for all my races, whether it's sprint to full IM, from 5k to marathon.
2008-01-15 11:34 AM
in reply to: #1157343

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Cycling Guru
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Subject: RE: Why do people not train at full distance?

Value vs. time available to train.  And injury stuff.

Plus time for recovery.

Professionals don't typically train the distance because their volume is nice and high and have the base.  There is no "need" to train the distance other than for psychological reasons.

2008-01-15 11:42 AM
in reply to: #1157314

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2008-01-15 1:01 PM
in reply to: #1157314

Runner
Subject: RE: Why do people not train at full distance?

McMillan has actually suggests that if you have problems with late race performance in the marathon, one way to fix it is to run beyond marathon distance in training (article).

 Most people do not because they are strapped for time, or they have other training to rely on.  If you are doing doubles, your average daily mileage is 15-20 miles, you probably don't need to worry about running more than the distance in one shot.



2008-01-15 1:20 PM
in reply to: #1157314

Coach
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Subject: RE: Why do people not train at full distance?

aarondavidson - 2008-01-15 11:13 AM When it comes to training I see two camps: 1: Train up to a point where you believe you can finish your distance (1/2, IM, Marathon) and 2: Train at the same distance or beyond that of the event. Why do people, especially for marathons, not train all the way up to marathon distance? I am not knocking anyone here, I am just curious, it is something I have never understood. In my mind I believe it is better to do the same distances, albeit not at race speed, and then know you can do the distance, then come race day, up your speed. Is there any benefit of not reaching the distance before an event? This has nothing to do with tapering before an event.

As far as running goes, physiologically speaking it doesn't make sense in particular since studies suggest that after certain duration training your body experience diminishing returns hence the adaptations gained are almost none or even negative. If the whole purpose for training is to maximize performance this would be a reason to not go the entire distance.

In terms of triathlon it gets more complicated because we train for 3 sports and even although we can managed to swim/bike the entire event distance without adverse effects, it is not the same with running. We still have specific key sessions to train for the event (race rehearsals) to mimic certain aspects of the race but we only do so many of those during training and not covering the entire distance. You don't expect to go out and rehearse the entire IM distance before your IM right?

You have to look at the big picture and think of the sum of all the training sessions you accomplish and not focus only in one.

2008-01-15 1:44 PM
in reply to: #1157314

Champion
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Subject: RE: Why do people not train at full distance?
If you do a marathon in training then why bother to do the marathon? Then you already did it and do not need to bother.

Alot of people race to ulimately just to "finish" the distance. If your training to race a 5k or half marathon yeah I would think by doing those distances over and over again it would work well. I plan on running 14 miles a week to get ready for a half marathon I am doing in march.

Typically farther you go the slower you go. which would be better doing 31 miles at 11 min/mile or 10 min/mile for 20 miles? I think the later would get you to finishing the marathon at 10 min/mile easier than the 11 min/mile.

Injury prevent is a big one. my friend was telling me one of the best ways to train for a 50 miler is doing back to back 20 mile days versus trying to do 40 in 1 day. Same reason.

2008-01-15 1:47 PM
in reply to: #1157718

Runner
Subject: RE: Why do people not train at full distance?

chirunner134 - 2008-01-15 2:44 PM If you do a marathon in training then why bother to do the marathon? Then you already did it and do not need to bother. Alot of people race to ulimately just to "finish" the distance.

If this were ultimately the case, then people could save themselves the entry fee and just go do it on their own.  Whether they admit it or not, they want to do the race. 

2008-01-15 1:49 PM
in reply to: #1157314

Pro
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Subject: RE: Why do people not train at full distance?
Add me for another one of the "injury prevention".

And also, there's an incredible amount of support that goes into running a marathon. Not only medical and safety, but emotional as well. I think I'd end up a broken woman if I ran a solitary 26.2 miles. (plus I'd probably be a mushy diabetic mess).
2008-01-15 1:54 PM
in reply to: #1157733

Champion
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Subject: RE: Why do people not train at full distance?
Scout7 - 2008-01-15 1:47 PM

chirunner134 - 2008-01-15 2:44 PM If you do a marathon in training then why bother to do the marathon? Then you already did it and do not need to bother. Alot of people race to ulimately just to "finish" the distance.

If this were ultimately the case, then people could save themselves the entry fee and just go do it on their own.  Whether they admit it or not, they want to do the race. 



Well yeah they want to do the race. You do not get credit or glory if you do not do the distance in a race.

Most of the people training do not want to do 1 20 miler let alone 26.2.


2008-01-15 1:56 PM
in reply to: #1157746

Runner
Subject: RE: Why do people not train at full distance?
chirunner134 - 2008-01-15 2:54 PM
Scout7 - 2008-01-15 1:47 PM

chirunner134 - 2008-01-15 2:44 PM If you do a marathon in training then why bother to do the marathon? Then you already did it and do not need to bother. Alot of people race to ulimately just to "finish" the distance.

If this were ultimately the case, then people could save themselves the entry fee and just go do it on their own. Whether they admit it or not, they want to do the race.

Well yeah they want to do the race. You do not get credit or glory if you do not do the distance in a race. Most of the people training do not want to do 1 20 miler let alone 26.2.

Then WHY sign up for a marathon?  If you don't really want to do it, what's the point of attempting it in the first place?  And yeah, this is off the OP, so I apologize.

To go back to the OP.  There are people who do it.  There is some valid training reasons for it as well.  But that's more for experienced marathoners.  That's not to say that a first-timer wouldn't do it.  He or she very well could, and might benefit from it.

It really comes down to goals, and your own personal style. 

2008-01-15 4:11 PM
in reply to: #1157314

Veteran
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Subject: RE: Why do people not train at full distance?
just to say it agian . . . injury prevention. If you start doing 26+ in training, you are just less likely to make it through training and racing without injury.

This is the case for most people that do marathons. Elites might run the full distance or more during training, but they are doing 80-100+ miles a week. Their bodies have adapted. Most marathon runners (statistically) average well below 35 miles a week when they start a marathon (12, 16, 20 week) training program. Going much over 20 miles is risky.
2008-01-15 4:38 PM
in reply to: #1157718

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Subject: RE: Why do people not train at full distance?
Great thread, I've had this question in my mind for awhile now.
2008-01-16 6:19 AM
in reply to: #1157314

Elite
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Subject: RE: Why do people not train at full distance?
Seems like injury prevention is the main reason to constrict running, others because they just train to barely finish at a certain distance. Good information so far. Thanks.
2008-01-16 7:59 AM
in reply to: #1158954

Coach
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Subject: RE: Why do people not train at full distance?
aarondavidson - 2008-01-16 6:19 AM Seems like injury prevention is the main reason to constrict running, others because they just train to barely finish at a certain distance. Good information so far. Thanks.
Yes but that's a misconception. People don't get injured from running or running more. They get injured from bad training. As I mentioned above the biggest reason to avoid running longer than certain duration/distance is diminishing returns.


2008-01-16 11:38 AM
in reply to: #1159087

Master
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Salisbury, North Carolina
Subject: RE: Why do people not train at full distance?
amiine - 2008-01-16 8:59 AM
Yes but that's a misconception. People don't get injured from running or running more. They get injured from bad training.



All due respect, are you saying people DON'T get injured SOLELY due to running too much, especially as they get older ? I see that all the time..... even in the mirror.

Maybe I misinterpreted your post. Good info. you've put out there.

Edited by tri42 2008-01-16 11:43 AM
2008-01-16 12:07 PM
in reply to: #1159610

Coach
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Subject: RE: Why do people not train at full distance?
tri42 - 2008-01-16 11:38 AM
amiine - 2008-01-16 8:59 AM Yes but that's a misconception. People don't get injured from running or running more. They get injured from bad training.
All due respect, are you saying people DON'T get injured SOLELY due to running too much, especially as they get older ? I see that all the time..... even in the mirror. Maybe I misinterpreted your post. Good info. you've put out there.

Yes and no. I general you don't get injured from running too much; you get injured from not training properly. if your body haven't been stressed enough (over time) to handle more running then, if YOU run more too soon YOU are making a training mistake and YOU might end up getting injured due to bad training. Of course there is a balance between how much is too much based on your fitness levels, age, time available for training/recovery, etc. but usually most AGers don’t get near that balance.

2008-01-16 12:28 PM
in reply to: #1158954

Elite
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Subject: RE: Why do people not train at full distance?

aarondavidson - 2008-01-16 7:19 AM Seems like injury prevention is the main reason to constrict running, others because they just train to barely finish at a certain distance. Good information so far. Thanks.

<mini-rant ON> 

Now, I would say I fall more into the "train so I can finish" camp moreso than the "don't train too much to prevent injury" camp, but your comment about "just train to barely finish" kind of rubbed me wrong; I think most of us train a little harder than that - after all, you don't see too many sprints with cutoff times (yes, I know there are some) and therefore just about anyone, even with no training whatsoever, could finish one. I find a balance of getting in enough training with the limited free time I have every week in order to see constant improvement while keeping myself healthy and injury free, which perhaps could make up the majority of those on this forum. 

<mini-rant OFF>

 

2008-01-18 11:29 AM
in reply to: #1157314

Master
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Subject: RE: Why do people not train at full distance?
Are you talking about doing all 3 in 1 day at race distance.. or just 1-2 sports in 1 day at race distance?

If its the latter, I train past full distance. Maybe I am a minority... but I see benefit in it. Granted... I just stick to Olys right now, but I wouldnt change my plan even if I upped the distance to HIM or IM.
2008-01-18 12:46 PM
in reply to: #1164023

Champion
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Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia
Subject: RE: Why do people not train at full distance?

ranger5oh - 2008-01-18 1:29 PM

Are you talking about doing all 3 in 1 day at race distance.. or just 1-2 sports in 1 day at race distance?

If its the latter, I train past full distance. Maybe I am a minority... but I see benefit in it. Granted... I just stick to Olys right now, but I wouldnt change my plan even if I upped the distance to HIM or IM.

With sprints and OD's, it is easy to do overdistance training - for most athletes at training paces it will be under an hour in the pool, under 1:15 on the run and under 2:00 on the run - all very reasonable for many of your workouts.

As you move to HIM, fewer of your workouts will be overdistance; I would say the swim almost always, bike will see several rides over 56 miles and a handful of overdistance runs.

However, at the IM distance, I would say several swims will usually be overdistance and maybe a handful of rides but IMO there are very few programs that would advise even one over distance run; in fact, many of the plans will have a max long run of between 2:30 and 3:00 which for almost all triathletes will be less than 26 miles.

In an IM, it is your weekly, monthly and annual run volume that will get your through the marathon, not an overdistance long run.

Shane



2008-01-18 12:46 PM
in reply to: #1164023

Champion
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Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia
Subject: RE: Why do people not train at full distance?

edit - double post



Edited by gsmacleod 2008-01-18 12:47 PM
2008-01-18 12:54 PM
in reply to: #1157314

Runner
Subject: RE: Why do people not train at full distance?

Interesting discussion on splitting long runs.

It covers some of this topic.  Running-specific, however. 

2008-01-18 1:14 PM
in reply to: #1157314

Champion
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Chicago, Illinois
Subject: RE: Why do people not train at full distance?
Well I know day after I done a marathon I do not want to go and ride my bike for 80 miles let alone after I run a 50k.
2008-01-18 2:08 PM
in reply to: #1164258

Sensei
Sin City
Subject: RE: Why do people not train at full distance?
gsmacleod - 2008-01-18 10:46 AM

ranger5oh - 2008-01-18 1:29 PM

Are you talking about doing all 3 in 1 day at race distance.. or just 1-2 sports in 1 day at race distance?

If its the latter, I train past full distance. Maybe I am a minority... but I see benefit in it. Granted... I just stick to Olys right now, but I wouldnt change my plan even if I upped the distance to HIM or IM.

With sprints and OD's, it is easy to do overdistance training - for most athletes at training paces it will be under an hour in the pool, under 1:15 on the run and under 2:00 on the run - all very reasonable for many of your workouts.

As you move to HIM, fewer of your workouts will be overdistance; I would say the swim almost always, bike will see several rides over 56 miles and a handful of overdistance runs.

However, at the IM distance, I would say several swims will usually be overdistance and maybe a handful of rides but IMO there are very few programs that would advise even one over distance run; in fact, many of the plans will have a max long run of between 2:30 and 3:00 which for almost all triathletes will be less than 26 miles.

In an IM, it is your weekly, monthly and annual run volume that will get your through the marathon, not an overdistance long run.

Shane



If I was the first to respond - it would almost be verbatim. I completely agree, based on this point of my training.

Last year, I over distanced everything for Olympic length events many times then finished the season with a HIM. My longest bike and run prior to that HIM was 50miles and 11 miles respectively.

This year, I plan to train mostly for HIM's and will only over distance a handful of times on the bike and run then end the summer by finishing the Silverman IM. I will probably ride the 112 miles once, on race day, and run 26.2 twice. Once during an earlier marathon and again, on race day.

My IM plan is based on distance for swim, and I can see a handful of times that I do more than 3500meters. The plan has bike and run workouts based on time, and looking at the times, and based on my pace, I would get close, but never above the IM distances. I.E. the longest ride time is 5:30 - that is a 20mph pace to get in the 112 miles. I'm just not that fast over 5+ hours as much as I would like to be! I can't even do 20 mph on my local OD course.

As a side note: Most of the marathon plans I see never really have you running more than 20 miles at one time - even uber competitive running plans. They have SICK amounts of miles and workouts for the week (over a hundred miles and 10 or more workouts/week)but not a sustained run of more than 20 miles.
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