Race Wheels

P2K!  Excellent choice in a tri bike!  Congratulations and I hope that your love affair with her last a long long time.  As for the wheels, I would go for the Zipps if only for the fact that the wheel can be trued if it ever goes out.  The Hed, on the other hand, is not so easy to true, if at all.  If you like Hed, there are other models, such as the Jet that you could choose from that would suit your tri needs.

The 404's are about as good as it gets...unless you have the extra green for the Z4's.

I am currently going thru the same process for my new Cervelo P3, I am looking at Zipps,HED and also Nimble crosswinds. I am leaning toward the Nimble's, lighter than HED's although more expensive than the zipps.

Really stupid question, but we're on BT so I feel safe in asking the following. What is the deal with race wheels? I have so much more work to do on the engine that I'm not in the market for race wheels, but what do you hope to gain by purchasing them?

I surmise that they are lighter, with less rolling resistance, but what does that actually mean in terms of performance?

Thanks. I'll hang up now and listen to the responses.

Lighter wich reduces the total weight you have to power around the course plau you reduce rotational mass which means fatser acceleration. Probably more importantly, deep section wheels like the Zipp 404/Z4 provide superior aerodynamics which means more of your energy is being turned into forward progress and less eaten up by friction. I set of Zipp 404 or similar can make a significant difference over 20+ miles.

Yep, Joel is right.

If your looking for the most bang for your buck, a set of race wheels is the most impactful upgrade you can do for your bike. Superior aerodynamics with the 50mm-60mm carbon rims really does make a difference in longer races. This coupled with, bladed Sapim spokes, negligable (sp?) rolling resistence in the hubs' bearings, and lighter weight all add up to "FREE TIME" in your bike split.

I had a tough time justifying the Zipp 404 purchase when I was thinking about it but after 6 years of triathlon racing I figured I'd stick it out (triathlon racing that is) and went ahead and bought a tri bike and race wheels.....man what a difference.

I put the wheels I train with on my tri bike and went for a mile ride on them, then I immediately switched to the zipp 404s and did the same mile ride. Man can you tell a difference!

anyway, that's the deal with race wheels and to answer Drew's question about which race wheels to purchase....I would suggest you go with Zipps. They are the most popular race wheelset with pro and amatuer road racering and triathlete racing circuits for a reason...so why reinvent the wheel (ok....sorry about that guys but I couldn't resist the pun)

Thanks, TH3, for your reply. Another question. What type of improvement (MPH) are you looking at with race wheels?

As I posted earlier, I'm very inexperienced on the bike (500 miles on my first ever road bike and aerobars still scare me) but I want to learn as much as I can about biking. Once one is good enough to contemplate race wheels, and I'm a few years away from that, how much of a gain do you get with them?

How cool is it that some of you are contemplating the purchase of race wheels! Like several of our bike (and marathon) posters (ride like, the bear, and many others), please stick around so we can suck your brains out over your biking knowledge. It's for a good cause!

ETA: How cool is Steve? Yep. Pretty dang cool. I'm by no means the hostess around here, but you are great, Steve.

Edited by Aikane 2004-11-27 9:21 PM

Actually as far as weight goes, some of the full disc wheels are heavier. But weight is less of an issue, especially on flat courses where you don't have to worry so much about accelerating the extra weight, and the fact that the aerodynamics of the wheel offset the weight factor by a lot. Things change however once you start hauling a heavy disc wheel up over a lot of hills. I'm wondering on a course such as Lake Placid if the gains and losses might cancel each other out. Not that I have the inclination or the $$$ to buy a full disc in the first place!



Edited by max 2004-11-27 10:00 PM

Max makes an excellent point. Disc wheels are dang heavy compared to a rear non-disc race wheel. And schlopping that thing up hills will build leg muscles for sure.

Discs are definately more aero as Max stated and the other reason why they are faster than regular non-disc rear race wheel (on a flat course) can be found in the definition of inertia. Since the rear disc weighs more, then it's "easier" to keep it going than a non-disc rear race wheel that's lighter.

By the way, the other downside to the disc wheel is the fact that you'll end up in a ditch if you use it during high cross winds....hence the reason no one uses them at Kona.

Steve, I saw a lot of top racers at Lake Placid using discs this summer. Thats an extremely hilly course. Where do you think the trade off comes between the disk and hassling with the extra weight? To me, I'd rather have the light weight, especially climbing the hills, where the danger of over-fatiguing your muscles is greater. Who knows, maybe the extra time gained on the flats is worth it, but seeing some people on the LP course, especially during the 2nd lap...man, it looked like a LOT of tongues were hanging on the front tire! I'm going to go for light weight as much as possible...but only becuase I can't justify spending that kind of money on a disc. I'd lower my overall time by spending more training hours working on my running.

They probabaly figured if you go up the hill you gotta come down and we all know that when racing downhill the heaviest person (or bike + person) wins. Maybe that's what they were thinking.

I wouldn't ride Lake Placid on a disc but my chicken legs are probabaly the size of their arms.

Y'all are great (and I'm sorry I forgot to mention you, Max, amongst our great bike riders). I think I have the answer to my questions. Thanks, and happy riding!

I'd like to think that one of these days I'll have enough extra cash laying around that I can afford a road bike for training, a tri bike for racing, a set of Zipp 404's, and a rear disc for the specific courses where it's the right choice. For now I have to get by with my stock Shimano 540's and a nice road bike. I'll probably get 404's this summer or next fall and hopefully a P3 SL next winter. At least that's the plan.

Everyone says that disc wheels are really heavy, but I checked out the Zipp 909 wheelset (909 rear disc, 404 front), and it weighs in at 1535g, only 35g more than a set of Mavic Ksyrium SLs, which I believe are a pretty standard pro wheel. So maybe you don't really avoid that much in the way of weight by not using disc wheels on hilly courses.

I think the reason you don't see people using the disc's in various races are $ and cross-winds.

I suppose what I meant by "heavy" is that the difference between a Zipp rear disc and a Zipp 404 rear wheel (both tubular) is about 240g.

And yes, we are splitting hairs now and my opinion is that if I work on my peddeling technique and off-season weight training, I'll offset any loss I may incur by not having the most aerodynamic wheelset.

Or, by having a slightly "heavier" wheelset.

Edited by the bear 2004-11-28 10:10 AM

Actually, they almost are the same! Guess it depends on where you shop. Nashbar has the Mavic SL's listed for $840 per set, weighing at 1530 grams. And Trizone has the Zipp 909 weight at 1528, costing $1650, nearly double. I guess the real weight savings would have to involve using the Zipp 404's at 1283 grams per set. That would save you just over a 1/2 lb. per set for a similar price as the solid disc in the rear. I guess the trick is to have enough money so you can buy both and decide on race day whether the wind will be a factor. Once of these days I'd actually like to RIDE a disc and see what it's like!

By the way, I'm seriously considering buying Renn's disc. I've heard from a couple people that it's a very good disc for us "amateur" racers.

When you think about it, we're only going to put like a couple hundred miles a year on the disc anyway and we're not fighting for podium spots so I may very well consider doing my two 1/2 IM races and IM Moo on a Renn disc next year.

Anyone here had any experience with Renn?

I raced with a Renn disk in my last tri. Hard to tell with all the variables out there, but sure felt faster. My friend who loaned it to me swears it's worth 1/2 mph off your average. Regardless, it's a lot more affordable than the Zipp disc.

Steve, I'm not sure where I saw it, perhaps it was on Gordo's site, but there was some discussion about some riders having problems with the Renn wheel and having it come apart. Don't know if this was some sort of bonding issue in the carbon fiber or what. And I have no first hand experience with it, just thought I'd mention that I had seen some opinions about the Renn wheel and it's longevity.

Try going to Gordo's BBS and doing a search, perhaps you can bring it up, I don't think it was that far back that I saw it.

http://www.coachgordo.com/forum2/upload/index.php?s=70b1f48bf871ed5...

Thanks max.

I did a search and came up with the thread. Click here if you want to read it.

I have a Renn Disc. I am taking my disc to AZ when we preride the course in a few weeks. I'm not so much concerned about the hills as I am about the wind, but there are 130 lb women that ride in the wind with no problems, so I will take both wheels and give it a try.
I know I feel faster with the disc and the sound alone is worth the money , but I have yet to prove that it is actually faster for me. I don't have a magnet for my computer so I have to rely on my race times which include T1 and T2. I guess if I really want to know, I could set up my own time trial and see. But since I convinced my wife that I needed it I don't want to find out it is slower because of the weight

Edited by madcow 2004-11-29 2:12 PM

I know I feel faster with the disc and the sound alone is worth the money

"The sound" is so cool, kind of a jet engine roar.But really, you don't notice it as much (the sound is behind you) as the people that you pass.

Edited by the bear 2004-11-29 2:36 PM