General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Giant vs Felt vs QR vs Cervelo Rss Feed  
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2008-02-20 6:26 PM
in reply to: #1224676

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Subject: RE: Giant vs Felt vs QR vs Cervelo
ohiost90 - 2008-02-20 6:19 PM

Newbie5317 - 2008-02-20 6:34 PM

  • ....move onto a thread about Carbon Fiber Kickstands ....
  • QUOTE]

    Don't put a kick stand, even a carbon one, on any bike you end up with



    Ok, I got it. Only a CERVELO carbon kickstand. You tried to trick me.


    btw, when I do get my bike, I will take a few pictures of my bike when I bring it home, then I am wisking it off to Kona, but not for a race, for a week of hot newlywed bike love. I'll post some nude shots on a special website.


    2008-02-20 6:33 PM
    in reply to: #1223262

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    Frugal Gear Geek
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    Subject: RE: Giant vs Felt vs QR vs Cervelo

    Newbie, for specifics, I can not help between the bikes you are looking at. FWIW, I do have some oppinions that may help. For starters, IMO there is a pretty good difference upgrading from 105 to Ultergra. From Ultegra to Dura Ace, not so much. A LBS I trust a lot basicly summed up the difference from Ultegra to Dura Ace as this. Dura Ace is lighter, but in doing so, the components are not "over enginered". In other words, they may not hold up as long as the slightly heavier Ultegra.

    When I chose my bike, which is a Trek, I rode: Trek, Felt and Specialized. To the most part they were pretty much all in the same leauge. When it came down to it, the deciding factor of staying with Trek for me is it a US company with US workers. Most of the other bike frames are made by just a handful of companies around the world. Each company has there own quirks as to look and overall design, but the quality of the work is esentualy the same from one comapay to the other.

    Also, when I went looking at tri bikes, my lbs kept me in a road bike converted to tri with clip ons. His logic was only having one bike is helpful (for me) to have a bike that can meet many criteria such as group rides, centurys tris and training. The overall difference in performance and fit in bikes with simular components and prices is mostly cosmetics. The compitition is fierce and if someone takes an edge, it is quickly closed in the next model year.

    Bottom line is, in my oppinion, a test ride is a great place to start. You may have to wait on the weather a bit, understandably. I took my test rides in March in New England when the temps bumped up over 40 for a day. Other than the ride, $$$ and looks are what counts, and I am finding that the ride is very simular on same priced bikes.

    Good luck shopping and hope you get a great ride.

    2008-02-20 7:03 PM
    in reply to: #1224610

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    Elite
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    Subject: RE: Giant vs Felt vs QR vs Cervelo

    Newbie5317 - 2008-02-20 6:34 PM Actually, I haven't gotten two pages of great responses. What I have gotten is "buy the Sepcialized so you can win Kona" or "Buy a cervelo." or "shut up and buy a bike already". Apologies, but that's just not quality answers. I have gotten some great responses from people that actually ride these bikes, and are willing to help someone new out. I genuinely appreciate the time people take to help newbies like me who have a ton of seemingly basic and, to you, common sense questions. I am not unfamiliar with forums. I have been flyfishing for almost 20 years, and post regularily about fly fishing on many forums. There are tons of newbies there as well, not to mention people who consider themselves elitest jerkoffs who give snide and smart answers and think they are something special. No matter which forum I go to, no matter the topic, there will always be these sorts of people. Which is fine. I fully expected it when I asked the question I asked. Thankfully, there are a good amount of people that want to help newbies, and they post great responses built on helping. I fully intend on paying forward all the great responses I got, and help other people that might not be as knowledgeable as the people who were obviously birthed from their Mothers qualified at Kona. I understand that some people here were never newbies, and were always racing carbon fiber tricycles with Zipp wheels and an aero helmet. For the rest of us, who are doing triathlons as a way to regain fitness, or inspire themselves, I will happily comment on ANYTHING that I have any experience in. As for slowtwitch, I did learn a couple of good things from my post there. Firstly, the Cervelo S2PL DA has an anodized finish, which is scratch proof. I also learned that DA isn't all that impressive over Ultegra. I learned that Cervelo's customer service is amazing as well. See, that's called intangible and distinct reasons why I would consider a Cervelo over other bikes. Not to mention, 90% of the responses I have gotten are pro Cervelo, with zero negatives. THATS why you post on several sites. You take a cross section of opinions from HELPFUL elite racers down to beginners, and you get one overall consensus. That's called research. You might not give a crap about $1500, and triathlons might be the only thing in your life that you spend money on. Unfortunately, I work in the financial world, and I am a bit more careful with my money. I want every dollar to be spent in a worthwhile way. If that makes me anal, and you think I don't need to do this, then by all means, use the lil back button, and move onto a thread about Carbon Fiber Kickstands or Titanium water bottles. Cheers to everyone that truly helped me. I really appreciate your efforts to help me find the best bike I can buy.

    I'll admit my impatience but I don't apologize for my comment about making up your mind; as others have stated, $1500 is a level many first-time bike purchasers look to spend and is a level where you can get some pretty good bang for your buck in a tri bike, but in all honesty, most (if not all) bikes in this general price range are almost completely comparable with only a few subtle trade-offs, so it really isn't a matter for microscopic comparison.

    To quote Tom Demerly's reply to you in your ST thread: "I see people do "research" when buying a bike, try to find answers to unanswerable questions and navigate a convoluted and conflicted set of opinions and just spin off into indecision. That is not a rewarding buying experience or shopping experience and rarely yeilds truly optimal results. One of the smartest things Dan Empfield (founder of this website and forum, arguably inventor of the triathlon bike) ever said was something to the effect of (paraphrasing) "Shop for a bike shop rather than a bike" I buy that 100%. To it I will add, "The single most important determining factor in your ownership experience is fit and positioning."

    Compare shops and dimensions, not bikes"

    and this is where some of us were coming from in reply to you.   

    You stated, "If that makes me anal, and you think I don't need to do this..." you need to understand at the get-go that 90% of us are anal retentive Type A's to begin with, which may help to explain some of the responses you get  but also help you understand that we are as obsessive/compulsive and addicted to this sport and have been in your shoes at one time, some of us very recently, but we all remember and still face the same decisions as you on our own purchases of equipment. None of us have money to throw away. When you stated "You might not give a crap about $1500, and triathlons might be the only thing in your life that you spend money on" it certainly wasn't aimed at me because I've never spent near that much on any bike, and "I am a bit more careful with my money. I want every dollar to be spent in a worthwhile way" I can state quite confidently that I spent as much or more time than you researching the purchase of my first tri bike one year ago that I ended up building up piece by piece - well, my LBS actually did the build - (Javelin Arcole, full Ultegra, FSA SL-K cranks) in order to save a ton of money over buying a complete bike, and I price compared and researched every separate piece of equipment and accessory that went on the Arcole frame, from bars to pedals. Anal? Nobody comes close to how I obsess.

    Don't be so quick to dismiss advice you don't like to hear or because it doesn't seem helpful at the time. I've learned that lesson a few times in the 3+ years I've been hanging around here.  None of us want you to burn your money and would want nothing more than to help a newb out answering some Q's but sometimes the line gets drawn with the handholding. GO GET FIT and then maybe post some more Q's.

    BTW, welcome to BT newbie



    Edited by sty 2008-02-20 7:07 PM
    2008-02-20 7:11 PM
    in reply to: #1223262

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    Subject: RE: Giant vs Felt vs QR vs Cervelo

    I just got the Felt used, but that's because $ is my top consideration. I agree the Giant just doesn't compare. In the end I aim to spend the least possible to meet my needs.

    A carbon seat post would have been nice though.

    2008-02-20 7:55 PM
    in reply to: #1223262

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    Subject: RE: Giant vs Felt vs QR vs Cervelo
    I heard your "just buy a bike and get on with it" loud and clear. That was much more helpful than "another option would be buying a frame and building it up as I did."

    Thanks for the warm welcome.
    2008-02-20 9:27 PM
    in reply to: #1224634

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    Subject: RE: Giant vs Felt vs QR vs Cervelo

    Newbie5317 - 2008-02-20 6:54 PM Also, someone said yellow is the fastest color. (that was another off the cuff remark, just so you know).

    Everyone knows that WHITE is the fastest and in this case it is a Felt too. 



    2008-02-20 9:46 PM
    in reply to: #1225066

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    Champion
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    Subject: RE: Giant vs Felt vs QR vs Cervelo

    I chose the cervelo over a trek, felt and specialized only because the shop didn't have those models that I wanted in my size to begin with.. I got a dual mostly because i'd go into the shop every couple of weeks and say that I knew that the dual was being discontinued and would they take "x" amount for that bike. after doing this for a while, and they knew my face from buying other stuff there, one day they said yes.

    For me it was a money decision as well since I was getting a good deal for a great bike (cervelo's are the hot bike for a reason maybe?) and the money I saved I was going to either put towards getting some other things like; race wheels in the future, race entry fees for IMKY or those times when my college age daughter needs some extra cash.

    In reality though I don't think I'm that great of a biker that I could really tell a difference in bikes that are a good fit for me. So I got one that I really like so I'm excited to go out and ride it, at a great price and it's a good enough bike that while I will most likely want a new one in a few years I know that it's a better bike than the person riding it. I can tell a huge difference between that and the old starter bike that I had though. So if all things are the same get the one that makes your pulse race a bit. the one that after the newness wears off you are still happy that you got "that bike" over the others.

     

    there is no right or wrong answer on this one  



    Edited by Gaarryy 2008-02-20 9:48 PM
    2008-02-20 10:25 PM
    in reply to: #1224855

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    Subject: RE: Giant vs Felt vs QR vs Cervelo
    Newbie5317 - 2008-02-20 8:55 PM

    I heard your "just buy a bike and get on with it" loud and clear. That was much more helpful than "another option would be buying a frame and building it up as I did."

    Thanks for the warm welcome.


    Welcome to the board. I think you took their advice the wrong way. They are really good guys and are more than helpful to all on this board.

    After considering the advice in all the posts above, it really is as simple as figuring out which bike fits you best. I ride a Cervelo P2C, mainly because the club I belong to is a Cervelo, Argon18, Scott, and Orbea dealer. The P2C package bike got me what I think is the best bike in the price range I was looking (around $2500). For you, I'd recommend the P2SL if it fits you.

    Resale is also something you should consider, and while all of the bikes hold their value, it's pretty easy to sell a Cervelo if it's a common size frame. Because, after you go through all this pain, anguish, and analysis paralysis, you're gonna buy a bike and then want a different/new one in 6 months.

    Edited by Bossman 2008-02-20 10:28 PM
    2008-02-21 6:49 AM
    in reply to: #1224855

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    Elite
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    Subject: RE: Giant vs Felt vs QR vs Cervelo

    Newbie5317 - 2008-02-20 8:55 PM I heard your "just buy a bike and get on with it" loud and clear. That was much more helpful than "another option would be buying a frame and building it up as I did." Thanks for the warm welcome.

    In the spirit of trying to be helpful, here's my take on the option of building your own bike: 

    I didn't encourage the option of buying a frameset and building it up because (besides the fact you weren't asking) in the price range you provided us it's neither a convenient option, nor a financially sound one, in many cases. Generally speaking, it makes more financial sense to buy a complete bike. Building up one from parts costs much more in the end, all "parts" considered being equal, because the bike manufacturers buy in bulk and get special pricing on components so in the end; as an example, a P2SL Ultegra complete from a dealer might cost $1600 but to build it up on your own would cost considerably over $2000 at retail prices. That's if you could even buy a new P2SL frameset to begin with, which I don't believe you can.

    After saying that, I will say that you that it IS possible to build a bike with a new frameset and new components and spend less, as some on BT can attest to doing, but you would have to be extremely patient in looking for sales and deals/discounts and spend hours on ebay. It's much more reasonable to recommend to a newbie that has a strict price range and wants to get onto a bike in the forseeable future, building would get you LESS of a bike than a complete bike from a dealer, again, if you don't have plenty of time or inside connections. 

    So in your price range that you gave us, I would stand by buying a complete bike, IF YOU WANT TO BUY NEW.

    Now, if you wanted to build up a bike using used parts, that's a whole other story, and the route that I went.  I cannibalized my former bike for parts and components and put them on a new frameset that I bought at 50% off retail. The Ultegra components I had only had a few thousand miles on them and came from another bike I bought at a steal ($500 for a 6 month old Giant Team road bike...it involved a divorce and a bitter wife selling off hubby's toys cheap). In the end I was able to build a bike that had everything I wanted on it, with no comprimises, with nearly-new componentas, for around $1200. 

    If I would have bought everything new at retail prices, I would have spent around $3000 - the frame alone retailed for $1650. I would do it again for my next bike when I'm ready to upgrade, and it also helps the resale of it when it comes time to unload it. A recent BT'er who also did this was kproudfoot - he built up a pretty sweet ride on the cheap but it took some patience, lots of time, lots of questions, but in the end likely saved 50% off retail.

    Also, if you were looking to spend north of $4000, I'd definitely look at the option of building from the frame up to get you exactly what components you wanted without sacrificing.

    Another option to speak to is buying used. Again, speaking very generally, you can get a much bigger bang for your buck by picking up a 1 or 2 year old bike in good condition. In your $1500 price range, you would be looking at a whole other level of bike if you don't mind used - better components, better frame; sure, it won't be the hot new colours of the season, and may have a few paint chips, but overall it makes the MOST financial sense to go this route. It's the route I went 3 years ago when I picked up that Giant at probably 75% off new. Again, with patience, ebay and craigslist are very good options.

    I hope you find my $0.02 usefull. 

    2008-02-21 8:11 AM
    in reply to: #1223262

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    Subject: RE: Giant vs Felt vs QR vs Cervelo

    Why the P2SL over the other bikes mentioned?  Because I studied the relative merits of all possible tribikes for 2 years before deciding on it.  I narrowed my search down to 3 possible bikes in 2006, the QR Kilo, the Guru Cron'alu and the Cervélo P2SL.  I test rode all 3 of these bikes and discarded the QR first because the top tube was too short (I have a long torso).  That left me with the Cron'alu and the P2SL.  After more extensive test rides I opted for the P2SL because it was more comfortable for me.  The resale value never entered into because I do not sell my bikes but it does have a high resale value nonetheless.  I bought my tribike in 2006, at a time when it sold for $3000 Canadian and I have not regretted it.  It is light, stiff and fast, AND I have never had the slightest problem with it thus far after two seasons of triathloning with it. 

    As for opting for the DA model over the Ultegra, that is up to you.  The DA derailleurs are slightly lighter and crisper than the Ultegras.  The other difference is in the paint quality on the frame.  The DA model comes with gun-metal anodized finish, which is far more resistant to scratching.  In my estimation, for that reason alone, it is worth the extra bling.  PLUS ... it just plain looks better!

    2008-02-21 8:28 AM
    in reply to: #1223262

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    Subject: RE: Giant vs Felt vs QR vs Cervelo
    I would love to buy a used bike, but having it fit me is my main concern. I don;t think I understand enough about geometery to purchase one used. The extra money I spend on a new bike will be worth it just to be fit properly (a free full fitting is included) along with the warranty and tune up package my shop offers.

    "These all include a $145 fitting, a $150 parts/labor 4 year warranty, a $115 Two year service and tune-up package. That is the best of any dealer. Total value is $410!" That's from my shop. I think that's a decent deal.


    2008-02-21 8:46 AM
    in reply to: #1225364

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    Subject: RE: Giant vs Felt vs QR vs Cervelo
    sty - 2008-02-21 7:49 AM

    Another option to speak to is buying used. Again, speaking very generally, you can get a much bigger bang for your buck by picking up a 1 or 2 year old bike in good condition. In your $1500 price range, you would be looking at a whole other level of bike if you don't mind used - better components, better frame; sure, it won't be the hot new colours of the season, and may have a few paint chips, but overall it makes the MOST financial sense to go this route. It's the route I went 3 years ago when I picked up that Giant at probably 75% off new. Again, with patience, ebay and craigslist are very good options.

    This is the option that I went although for a road bike instead of a tri bike.  The picture (Felt F60) I posted above is my bike that I got in Dec.  I paid $500 for it and it included a brand new Giro ($175) helmet and a computer.  At the time, I think this bike should have gone for 600-700 without the helmet and computer and therefore, I think I got a real good deal. 

    For me, I knew I could get a new bike for my budget of less than $700 but that bike would be entry level and honestly I wanted more than entry level.  I wanted something that I would not have the itch to upgrade in 6 months.   2nd, I don't like paying retail and in somes ways I just think buying new is a good way to throw money down the drain.  I prefer to let someone else take the biggest depreciation hit. 

    I figured I could get a bike that retailed well over a thousand and possibly included some accessories for $700 or less that was a few years old.  The key was to have a good idea of the size I needed and to be ready to pounce when one came availabe on Craigs List or ebay.   That is what I did.  I found the Felt on CR and pounced.  It was a lady selling it for her boyfriend and he had not riden it but a few times.  It had new cables, seat and bar wrap and included the helmet and computer.  It definately had miles on it from the previous owner before the last owner but was in good shape although had a few scratches her and there. 

    Would I do it again, yes.  The catch is that you need to know enough about the used market pricing and multiple brands and sizing to make sure you make a good buy.  I spent a few months watching craigs list and ebay and researching on forums.   You have to buy at the right price and that is insurance if you don't like it or choose the wrong size.  If you buy used at the right price, you can turn around and sell it for the same that you purchased it for and you did not even loose from paying taxes. 

    The other advantage of used is that if you don't stick with the sport, then you can get most if not all of your money back on the biggest single purchase.  If you buy new, you will take a hit.

    I want to stress though that going used, you will loose the free fitting and maybe some discounts at the initial purchase on accessories.  This is another reason you need to be sure you get a good buy and you have a good idea on the right size and then you will still need to pay for a fitting.  I paid $75 to have a fitting done.  Did it work out for me.  Absolutely.  I got a bike that has a "if bought new" value of somewhere between $1200 and $1400 for $575 (with the fit) and it included the accessories. 

    2008-02-21 8:56 AM
    in reply to: #1225525

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    Elite
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    Subject: RE: Giant vs Felt vs QR vs Cervelo

    Newbie5317 - 2008-02-21 9:28 AM I would love to buy a used bike, but having it fit me is my main concern. I don;t think I understand enough about geometery to purchase one used. The extra money I spend on a new bike will be worth it just to be fit properly (a free full fitting is included) along with the warranty and tune up package my shop offers. "These all include a $145 fitting, a $150 parts/labor 4 year warranty, a $115 Two year service and tune-up package. That is the best of any dealer. Total value is $410!" That's from my shop. I think that's a decent deal.

    Exactly what others including Tom Demerly from BikeSportMichigan and Dan Empfield from Slowtwitch have stated: buy a relationship with an LBS, don't just buy a bike. And this is exactly where you need to begin your search to narrow down the field some, at a shop you trust with a product you like.

    Also FYI, most shops will provide a fitting with the purchase of a bike and many also provide some level of free maintenance package, with some of the better shops giving you lifetime rotuine service/tune-ups. A good mechanic will troubleshoot for free and give you tips on wrenching the simple things yourself.

    Something I didn't mention about buying used or with building your own, you want to make sure you don't get fooled by the "apparent", or percieved value; the "what it would be worth if...". I spoke of what the retail on my complete bike would have cost, and there's NO WAY I think it's really worth that much and never have even thought about spending that amount on it, as I certainly don't believe even the frame alone is worth what the manufacturer charges at the retail level, so it shouldn't come into play, either on the buying end or the selling end.

    2008-02-21 10:30 AM
    in reply to: #1223262

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    Elite
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    Subject: RE: Giant vs Felt vs QR vs Cervelo

    Under the heading of "buy the shop, not the bike" I believe the following BTers have bought bikes from Emery's in the last year-year and a half...

    pseudoyams

    jszat

    jmwebs

    wildee

    You can send a personal message to any of these users by hitting the INBOX link in the upper left area under Welcome Newbie5317.  Find out from them how the fit and service went.  FWIW they all bought Cervelo.  Welcome to the boards. 

    2008-02-21 12:04 PM
    in reply to: #1223262

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    Subject: RE: Giant vs Felt vs QR vs Cervelo

    The P2 SL dura and ultegra packages actually differ in that they have dura rear AND front derailleurs. 

    If the "hot" bike fits and feels fast to you, then spend zero time worrying about someone elses opinion and go with your own judgement.  You are the one that is going to be in that saddle, not anyone from this forum.

    My advice:  Go ride them.  All of them.  Then, make your decision.

    Proud rider of a 2008 P2 SL with the "dura ace" package and all those budget/generic parts.

    http://www.cervelo.com/bikes.aspx?bike=P2SL2008

    Chris

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