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2008-03-03 9:49 AM
in reply to: #1244843

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Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion
Aikidoman - 2008-02-29 4:13 PM

coachese - 2008-02-29 4:02 PM

OK. Propulsion comes mainly from your hip/trunk rotation.



I think you may have misunderstood.  You don't get propulsion directly from rotation.  You can't just rotate back and forth and expect to go anywhere - I'm sure you know that.  But it helps with getting your body in best position to get power out of your arm stroke....



I don't think I misunderstood what he wrote, because it seems pretty clear. He doesn't say that rotating your hips provides propulsion to your arms. Plus other people are saying that you can get propulsion from snapping your hip.

I would love to put pull bouys between someone's arms and legs, and watch them move across the pool by just snapping their hips in the water. That is what people are writing, and I find it hard to believe.


2008-03-03 10:09 AM
in reply to: #1244790

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Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion
It's not just snapping your hips that provides the propulsion--it's snapping your hips combined with spearing your stroke arm forward...and that's really just a brief and simplified summary. In general, this involves your entire "core".  Btw, this is something that Terry Laughlin does a very good job describing in his Total Immersion (TI) books, as well as demonstrating in his TI DVDs. Abtw, I'm a believer because I have experienced it.

Edited by Tridiot 2008-03-03 10:10 AM
2008-03-03 10:37 AM
in reply to: #1248753

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Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion
Tridiot - 2008-03-03 10:09 AM

It's not just snapping your hips that provides the propulsion--it's snapping your hips combined with spearing your stroke arm forward...and that's really just a brief and simplified summary. In general, this involves your entire "core".  Btw, this is something that Terry Laughlin does a very good job describing in his Total Immersion (TI) books, as well as demonstrating in his TI DVDs. Abtw, I'm a believer because I have experienced it.


I find it hard to believe that spearing your stroke arm forward gives you any propulsion at all. Physics leads me to believe that any arm movement forward by itself actually drives you backwards.

My experience in the pool leads me to believe that all propulsion comes from the arms and legs. Any other productive body movement is to give more power to those paddles or less resistance while moving them to a position to propel.

Maybe it is just semantics, but I think it is a more clear way to describe swimming.
2008-03-03 11:19 AM
in reply to: #1244825

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Giver
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Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion

eberulf - 2008-02-29 5:07 PMI guess I need to take a TI class, because I have read the book and seen other posts that claimed this, and I have no idea how rotating your hip/trunk would cause you to move forward.

Think of it like cracking a whip. It's the end of the whip that transfers the force, but the power comes from a place far removed from it, and the farther removed the better. Long enough lever moves the world and all...

2008-03-03 11:20 AM
in reply to: #1248846

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Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion

eberulf - 2008-03-03 11:37 AM  My experience in the pool leads me to believe that all propulsion comes from the arms and legs. Any other productive body movement is to give more power to those paddles or less resistance while moving them to a position to propel. Maybe it is just semantics, but I think it is a more clear way to describe swimming.

See post above...

 

2008-03-03 2:35 PM
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2008-03-03 2:43 PM
in reply to: #1248846

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Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion

eberulf - 2008-03-03  I find it hard to believe that spearing your stroke arm forward gives you any propulsion at all. Physics leads me to believe that any arm movement forward by itself actually drives you backwards.

Simple demo using non-TI-approved technique, my apologies to TI-purists:

  1. Push off from the wall underwater, mostly on one side (your pick), but with your head facing straight towards the bottom--and keep looking straight down the entire time.  Your bottom arm and hand is extended out straight, fingers pointing out, your body is elongated and streamlined as much as possible, feet together, toes pointed back. Your top arm is straight back with hand resting on your leg.  Glide like this (without kicking) for several feet while you come towards the surface, with your top shoulder surfacing.
  2. When your shoulder surfaces, leave your other (bottom) arm extended, but then spear/stroke your top arm forward to enter the water just ahead of your goggles--at the same time snapping your top hip down to rotate.  You are now on your other side, with both arms extended, with the last arm as the "top" arm. When you speared your stroke arm forward, you should have felt/noticed a little speed pickup. Only forward arm movement here, no fair pulling arm back

Of course you have to resist kicking during any of this, so as not to influence the propulsion test.

2008-03-03 2:47 PM
in reply to: #1244869

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Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion

BikerGrrrl - 2008-02-29 5:23 PM I wish I could explain it better, but it's possible to get propulsion from the hip.  Instead of just rotatating...THRUST that hip into the rotation as your hand enters the water in front of you.  Seriously   I know it sound stupid... but it works.    It's more of a snap.

When I first started getting into tri about 3 years ago, I was taught to rotate my body, but I always thought it was mostly to decrease drag and make it easier for the body to glide through the water (I'm sure this is also part of it.) I never thought about rotation of the hips, and definitely not how this might affect the power of my stroke.

I was in the pool this morning and thought about this thread and decided to pay attention to the hip rotation. I'm surprised to say I really did feel like I was getting a more powerful stroke by snapping my hips into each rotation. Thanks for the tip everyone

2008-03-03 3:51 PM
in reply to: #1249588

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Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion
Tridiot - 2008-03-03 2:43 PM

eberulf - 2008-03-03  I find it hard to believe that spearing your stroke arm forward gives you any propulsion at all. Physics leads me to believe that any arm movement forward by itself actually drives you backwards.

Simple demo using non-TI-approved technique, my apologies to TI-purists:

  1. Push off from the wall underwater, mostly on one side (your pick), but with your head facing straight towards the bottom--and keep looking straight down the entire time.  Your bottom arm and hand is extended out straight, fingers pointing out, your body is elongated and streamlined as much as possible, feet together, toes pointed back. Your top arm is straight back with hand resting on your leg.  Glide like this (without kicking) for several feet while you come towards the surface, with your top shoulder surfacing.
  2. When your shoulder surfaces, leave your other (bottom) arm extended, but then spear/stroke your top arm forward to enter the water just ahead of your goggles--at the same time snapping your top hip down to rotate.  You are now on your other side, with both arms extended, with the last arm as the "top" arm. When you speared your stroke arm forward, you should have felt/noticed a little speed pickup. Only forward arm movement here, no fair pulling arm back

Of course you have to resist kicking during any of this, so as not to influence the propulsion test.



OK, I will try it on Wednesday and see if I get a little speed pickup. However, I have a feeling it will not be nearly as much speed pickup as I would get if I used one arm to sweep back to my side in a normal crawl, leading me to still think the main form of propulsion is from moving my arms from above my head to my side.
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