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2008-04-09 12:23 PM
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Subject: RE: race pace vs training pace

Hmmm, interesting that Daniels actually DOES say the same thing that I did ... and he pretty much coined the term .....

Just Over Easy

So just for review, let’s see how the experts define the term. Also known as an anaerobic threshold (AT) run or lactate-threshold run, the tempo run was popularized by Jack Daniels, Ph.D., about a decade ago. Here’s his definition, taken from Daniels’ Running Formula (Human Kinetics): "A tempo run is nothing more than 20 minutes of steady running at threshold pace." (He goes on to say that 20 minutes is ideal, but may be varied to suit the needs of a particular course.) Without getting too technical, threshold pace is the effort level just below which the body’s ability to clear lactate, a by-product of carbohydrate metabolism, can no longer keep up with lactate production. Daniels states that this pace is, for most people, about 25 to 30 seconds per mile slower than current 5K race pace.

Exercise physiologist and coach Pete Pfitzinger adds: "For very fit runners, the pace is between 15K and half-marathon race pace." For those fond of using heart rate monitors, Daniels notes that tempo runs are done at 90% of maximum. However, most runners seem to find it easier to use running speed as a guide.

For those who have neither HRMs nor marked courses at their disposal, Daniels stresses that the effort associated with a tempo run should be "comfortably hard"—one that could be maintained for an hour in a race.



2008-04-09 12:27 PM
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Subject: RE: race pace vs training pace
2008-04-09 12:40 PM
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Subject: RE: race pace vs training pace
Scout7 - 2008-04-08 4:23 PM
Plissken74 - 2008-04-09 10:17 AM

To make a great Tempo Run session, you should fix in your mind the fact that you should finish all the planned km, starting in a slower pace than planned and increasing at the end, maybe in the second part. This will improve even your performance in long race where negative splitting is essential for a great performance.

This is what I would call a "Progression Run". Start at an easy pace, and increase pace over a given time/distance.

 

Not really. I did not mean Progression Run which is totally different. When I said starting carefully,lower than the target pace, I meant 2-3 secs/km below and you finish 2-3 secs/km above in the last part.

progression Run is a session where you increase 5secs/km each km in the last 30-40% of the entire session. 

2008-04-09 12:49 PM
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Subject: RE: race pace vs training pace
Scout7 - 2008-04-08 4:23 PM
Plissken74 - 2008-04-09 10:17 AM

To make a great Tempo Run session, you should fix in your mind the fact that you should finish all the planned km, starting in a slower pace than planned and increasing at the end, maybe in the second part. This will improve even your performance in long race where negative splitting is essential for a great performance.

This is what I would call a "Progression Run". Start at an easy pace, and increase pace over a given time/distance.

 

Just an off topic: great Roman proverb in your signture...I am from Rome and my favourite is "Frangar non flectar!". It is not clear who said that in the past.

The other on labore I guess is Sofocle...wasn't it? 

2008-04-09 12:50 PM
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Subject: RE: race pace vs training pace
Daremo - 2008-04-08 3:58 PM

Direct quote from Pete P. -

OPTIMAL MARATHON TRAINING SESSIONS

Of the many possible combinations of speed and distance that you can do in training, a few provide the optimal stimuli for physiological improvements for the marathon. The most effective types of marathon training are described below. These workouts form the key sessions in Pete?s training programs.

I. Tempo Runs:

The most effective way to improve your lactate threshold is to run at your current lactate threshold pace, or a few seconds per mile faster. This can be done either as one continuous run (tempo run) or as a long interval session at your lactate threshold pace (called cruise intervals or LT intervals).

These workouts make you run hard enough that lactate is just starting to accumulate in your blood. When you train at a lower intensity, a weaker stimulus is provided to improve your lactate threshold pace. When you train faster than current lactate threshold pace, you?ll accumulate lactate rapidly, so you won?t be training your muscles to work hard without accumulating lactate. During these workouts, the more time that you spend at your lactate threshold pace, the greater the stimulus for improvement.

Lactate threshold training should be run at close to the pace that you could currently race for one hour. For serious marathoners, this is generally 15K to 20K race pace. This should be the intensity at which lactate is just starting to accumulate in your muscles and blood. In terms of heart rate, lactate threshold typically occurs at 80 to 90 percent of maximal heart rate, or 76 to 88 percent of heart rate reserve in well-trained runners.

You can do some of your tempo runs in low-key races of 4 miles to 10K, but be careful not to get carried away and race all out. Remember that the optimal pace to improve lactate threshold is your current LT pace, and not much faster.

A typical training session to improve lactate threshold consists of a 15- to 20-minute warm-up, followed by a 20- to 40-minute tempo run and a 15-minute cooldown. The lactate threshold workouts in my training programs mainly fall within these parameters, although some programs include one longer tempo run in the 7-mile range. LT intervals are typically two to five repetitions of five minutes to two miles at lactate threshold pace with two or three minutes between repetitions.

For runners competing in shorter races, tempo runs and LT intervals are both excellent ways to prepare. For marathoners, however, tempo runs are preferable to LT intervals. After all, the marathon is one long continuous run, and tempo runs simulate marathon conditions more closely than do LT intervals. There?s both a physiological and a psychological component to the advantage of tempo runs. The extra mental toughness required to get through a tempo run when you may not be feeling great will come in handy during the marathon.

 

Basically it is matching on what I posted. Good confirmation then. 

2008-04-09 12:51 PM
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Subject: RE: race pace vs training pace


2008-04-09 12:55 PM
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Subject: RE: race pace vs training pace
Daremo - 2008-04-08 4:53 PM

You train by the definition of what approach/plan you are using. I'm a firm believer in the Pfitzinger-Douglas school of training. So I follow their plans for my marathon training. And in their plans they prescribe "X" workout and they define what those workouts are. So as long as I follow their methodology and definition then I am getting the correct type of workout in.

For Jorge's athletes, as long as he is specifically defining what each workout is and the athlete has an understanding of the way that he uses the terminology then it will work the way he intends.

But going back to the OP original question, which DOES tie into all this in that the pacing zones that are listed on the bottom of the calculator are designed to give the most effective result using those paces. So in this case, the training methodolgy in question has very specific and delineated ranges of paces for each type of workout.

Here is the portion of the chart based on my race times:

Endurance Workouts

Pace/Mile
Pace/K
Recovery Jogs
8:20 to 8:50
5:11 to 5:30
Long Runs
7:20 to 8:20
4:34 to 5:11
Easy Runs
7:20 to 7:50
4:34 to 4:53

Stamina Workouts
Pace/Mile
Pace/K
Steady-State Runs
 6:29 to 6:40
4:02 to 4:09
Tempo Runs
 6:13 to 6:29
3:52 to 4:02
Tempo Intervals
 6:08 to 6:20
3:48 to 3:56

Time/Interval

Cruise Intervals
(mile)
6:05 to 6:13

(1200m)
4:32 to 4:38

(1000m)
3:47 to 3:52

(800m)
3:01 to 3:05

(600m)
2:16 to 2:19

(400m)
1:31 to 1:33


Specifically look at his defiition of "tempo" pace. Based on my 1:24 half it falls right in line with both the "tempo run" link that Tim posted and the definition I posted by Pfitzinger. So in this case, based on what the OP was looking for, the parameters for the "tempo" are at or above the threshold line (however you define that). NOT a Z3 run. Hell, pretty much every single general aerobic run that I do would put me squarely in Z3 by all the HR zone training crap.

 

Quick analysis related to my standards: your tempo runs seems to be too fast (for my opinion). Basically you run HMs at 4'00/km more or less and it should be the same pace for Tempo runs???? It should be a very hard session for you then.

I run the HM at 3'45/km and my tempo runs are at 3'55"/km. 

2008-04-09 12:57 PM
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Subject: RE: race pace vs training pace

Stephen T - 2008-04-08 6:27 PM
Plissken74 - 2008-04-08 5:33 PM "Medium" pace session at 20 sec/km faster than 10k race for at least 8km and max 15km
Are you saying you train for 15k at a faster pace than you can hold in a 10k race? That doesn't seem to make sense to me. Nevermind - missed the later clarification.

 

You are right. I wanted to write slower...

I hope everybody got the point... 

2008-04-09 1:01 PM
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Subject: RE: race pace vs training pace
That's funny, i was going to say that the training paces it gave you were to slow. I can hold 7min/miles for about 8-9 miles and almost all my training runs are around 8min/mile except for long runs which are 8:15-8:30. I never run any slower than 8:30 pace.
2008-04-09 1:04 PM
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Subject: RE: race pace vs training pace
Daremo - 2008-04-09 1:23 PM

Hmmm, interesting that Daniels actually DOES say the same thing that I did ... and he pretty much coined the term .....

Well, it's no real surprise, since Pfitzinger is a student of Daniels. 

2008-04-09 1:05 PM
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Subject: RE: race pace vs training pace
Daremo - 2008-04-09 12:23 PM

Hmmm, interesting that Daniels actually DOES say the same thing that I did ... and he pretty much coined the term .....

You might be right, but IIRC from the Running Formula edition I have, Daniels describe tempo runs at sub threshold efforts and he presents a table to adjust the pacing as the duration of the runs get longer. I can check that out tonight and post (no prob if I am mistaken). I never read the original version, I do know from guys like Barry P that the latest version was somehow different and included more intense sessions than the original. Maybe someone read both and could chime in?

Still, if I show you posts from AC or others who like him describe such specific intensity is as sub threshold pace would you change your mind? I don't think so and it goes back to what I said above; it would be nice if all these concepts/terms would become standardized instead of guessing what each means depending on what approach you are following or who you are asking.



2008-04-09 1:07 PM
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Subject: RE: race pace vs training pace
Plissken74 - 2008-04-09 1:55 PM Quick analysis related to my standards: your tempo runs seems to be too fast (for my opinion). Basically you run HMs at 4'00/km more or less and it should be the same pace for Tempo runs???? It should be a very hard session for you then.

I run the HM at 3'45/km and my tempo runs are at 3'55"/km.

By the system I use, which is the same that you just quoted me on earlier, my tempo pace should be at my 15 - 20k (or 1/2 marathon) pace.  Which puts my pace at around 6:25 - 6:30 or so, yes, right around my 1/2 marathon pace.

A tempo run should not be "easy" by any stretch of the imagination, but it should also not be as bad as a track workout as it is a sustained effort, not a sporadic fast one.

Now, if you look at my logs and at my tempo days, my tempo pace tends to actually be slower because the route I'm running on is somewhat rolling and the return leg of my tempo runs is usually uphill (just like the first portion will be downhill).  This is where I just judge it by the effort and actually do use my HRM to make sure I maintain the same sort of effort throughout the session.  I do not care so much if that effort is "at my LT HR number" as others might, but I make sure I maintain the same level of work whether I'm going uphill or down.  That just means my first mile or two will be closer to 6:10-ish (downhill) while the last two might be closer to 7:00 (uphill).



Edited by Daremo 2008-04-09 1:15 PM
2008-04-09 1:12 PM
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Subject: RE: race pace vs training pace

amiine - 2008-04-09 2:05 PM Still, if I show you posts from AC or others who like him describe such specific intensity is as sub threshold pace would you change your mind? I don't think so and it goes back to what I said above; it would be nice if all these concepts/terms would become standardized instead of guessing what each means depending on what approach you are following or who you are asking.

Nah ....... it just goes back to what I said about understanding and adhering to the definitions set forth by whatever system/plan you are using:

You train by the definition of what approach/plan you are using.  I'm a firm believer in the Pfitzinger-Douglas school of training.  So I follow their plans for my marathon training.  And in their plans they prescribe "X" workout and they define what those workouts are.  So as long as I follow their methodology and definition then I am getting the correct type of workout in.

For Jorge's athletes, as long as he is specifically defining what each workout is and the athlete has an understanding of the way that he uses the terminology then it will work the way he intends.

As long as you are working within the framework of whichever system you are using and you understand the parameters of that system, then chances are you will be successful with the plan and get better.

There is no "right" one, otherwise there wouldn't be so many different coaching strategies out there!

2008-04-09 1:14 PM
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Subject: RE: race pace vs training pace
I'm just calling it a Super Rick Session (SRS).
2008-04-09 4:23 PM
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2008-04-09 4:39 PM
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Subject: RE: race pace vs training pace
PennState - 2008-04-09 5:23 PM .... but my coach and I are using the same term definitions ... that's what counts.

Hey Scout.... are you kind of like the uni-bomber... anti-technology and all (j/k)

That's my point exactly.  And good luck to him this weekend!  (I believe he's racing at AZ if I recall).

And Scout is a little on the "unique" side ..... very old school ..... guess that's why we click well ......

(Me in the blue, him in the black ahead of me on the right).



Edited by Daremo 2008-04-09 4:40 PM




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2008-04-10 6:47 AM
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Subject: RE: race pace vs training pace
PennState - 2008-04-09 5:23 PM

Hey Scout.... are you kind of like the uni-bomber... anti-technology and all (j/k)

HA!  My day job is computer programming.  Are you waiting for my running manifesto?

Actually, it's technology for technology's sake that I dislike.  I don't use a HRM much because I don't see much need for it in my training.  I've got enough experience with other methods that I'm comfortable using those.  I know what my paces generally are, and have a sense of how different effort levels feel.  Of course, I've done a fair amount of running races at all different levels, and that's a huge part of it.  But, I see a lot of people give the generalized advice of "Get a HRM, best bit of kit you can purchase".  I disagree with that.  Even for a new person.  It takes just as much discipline and effort to learn about how to use a HRM as it does any other training method.  And misusing an HRM is still bad training.

As for the whole "tempo" thing...  It comes down to semantics, and that argument is exactly what Rick outlined.  It's based on our personal experiences.  Personally, I think the average person on this site doesn't need to ever learn about things like intervals, tempo runs, or any of that.  Most people could look to increase their time spent running, and that will do wonders more than any screwball training technique. 

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