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2008-05-19 6:25 AM

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Subject: Soldier dismissed for shooting a book

U.S. Soldier Removed for Quran Shooting

BAGHDAD (May 18) - An American sniper was removed from Iraq after he used a copy of the Quran for target practice, the military said Sunday, a day after a U.S. commander held a formal ceremony apologizing to Sunni tribal leaders.
The elaborate ceremony — in which one U.S. officer kissed a new copy of Islam's holy book before giving it to the tribal leaders — reflected the military's eagerness to stave off anger among Sunni Arabs it has been cultivating as allies.
Shoot human being - get medal of honor.  Shoot book - get discharged.  Go figure.

 


Edited by Big Sexy 2008-05-19 6:29 AM


2008-05-19 6:31 AM
in reply to: #1410118

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Soldier dismissed for shooting a book
Wow, up till this point the war made total sense.
2008-05-19 6:47 AM
in reply to: #1410118

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Giver
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Subject: RE: Soldier dismissed for shooting a book
It makes sense to me. If we're supposed to be the good guys over there, we probably shouldn't be pooping on their religion.
2008-05-19 6:49 AM
in reply to: #1410118

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Subject: RE: Soldier dismissed for shooting a book

Editors Note:  This is not a negative statement regarding Muslims, the US Military, the war nor those in charge of it.  I'm merely pointing out apparent disproportionalism.

As such, I should not be discounted in today's "Moratorium on Negative-ness" 

2008-05-19 7:20 AM
in reply to: #1410118

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COURT JESTER
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Subject: RE: Soldier dismissed for shooting a book

Had the target of practice been a Bible, would the soldier get dismissed and would the officer have kissed its replacement?

I'm guessing no to each.

Sometimes making amends requires a little arse book kissing.

EDIT:  Not being negative this Monday, just typing out an innocent Q&A that popped into my head.



Edited by tupuppy 2008-05-19 7:22 AM
2008-05-19 9:05 AM
in reply to: #1410187

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Arch-Bishop of BT
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Subject: RE: Soldier dismissed for shooting a book
tupuppy - 2008-05-19 8:20 AM

Had the target of practice been a Bible, would the soldier get dismissed and would the officer have kissed its replacement?

I'm guessing no to each.

Sometimes making amends requires a little arse book kissing.

EDIT: Not being negative this Monday, just typing out an innocent Q&A that popped into my head.

In Islam, the Quran is not the equivalent of Christianity's Bible.  It is much more analogous in many ways to Jesus, the living revelation of God...

I will often set my Bible on the floor in the middle of meeting or bible study or even just to get out of the chair.

I would never set the Quran on the floor out of respect for Muslim beliefs.

-Brian 



2008-05-19 10:02 AM
in reply to: #1410118

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Subject: RE: Soldier dismissed for shooting a book

It must feel constrictive to live in a world where one's spirituality and faith can be evaluated by the treatment of a physical object.  I find it odd that spiritual leaders are more concerned by the treatment of a representative object rather than the loss of the lives of others simply because they do not agree on religious matters.

One human family...

2008-05-19 10:23 AM
in reply to: #1410151

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Master
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Subject: RE: Soldier dismissed for shooting a book

run4yrlif - 2008-05-19 6:47 AM It makes sense to me. If we're supposed to be the good guys over there, we probably shouldn't be pooping on their religion.

 

Oh Oh  here we go again I agree with Jim The soldier was in the wrong.  In the kind of war we are conducting we need/want the locals to respect us we will not get that by showing disrespect.  Killing those that wish to kill us is understandable and acceptable disrespecting the people is not.  While serving in the Navy we were briefed on local customs and instructed not to do things to intentionally offend the locals I am sure the guy will not have his career seriously harmed but the commander had to take some action.

 

2008-05-19 10:24 AM
in reply to: #1410118

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Subject: RE: Soldier dismissed for shooting a book

Did he really get discharged or just pulled out of Iraq and set somewhere else..

Training someone to be a Sniper is a pretty decent commitment on the Army's part (time/money), hard to believe they would give him the boot. 

2008-05-19 10:39 AM
in reply to: #1410118

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Soldier dismissed for shooting a book

Big Sexy - I see your point as well as I see the Preacherman's, but you have to look at this in another way.

 

As a member of the military, you swear to uphold certain rules that not only consist of the Constitution and the laws of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (That is the rule book by which all military personel are held responsible and tried in courts martial or through Non-Judicial punishment, if so directed by their commanding officer), but you are also held responsible for upholding the laws and customs of the country that you are in, if it is not The United States.  This last part is where you see a lot of the "bending over backwards" that makes some people angry.

I recall a trip I made to Egypt for an operation where we had to attend classes for 6 weeks before we left.  We had to learn certain things that would normally be overlooked in the States as normal activity, but would so offend our hosts.  The one that I struggled greatly getting my crew to follow was not to use the left hand when reaching out or handing an object to someone (especially since I had three left-handed Marines out of seven).  The Egyptians take this as a great insult because that is the hand that they customarily use to cleanse themselves and it is thus "dirty".  Was it hard to get used to this stuff?  Yes.  Was it impossible?  No.  Was it necesssary?  I believe so.

In any case, this soldier violated his command and general orders to some degree.  At the least, he dis-honored himself and his country with behavior that caused harm to the mission of his unit (a charge under the UCMJ that would be dealt with with Non-judicial punishment).  At worst, he caused great dishonor to his country with "conduct unbecoming of an enlisted soldier" (a charge that requires a court martial hearing under UCMJ).  As I understand what has been released thus far, he has been given something in between the two, which would be his commanders decision. 

As far as the difference between shooting a person and a book, the morality of being a soldier is hard for some to deal with and is the reason that I don't believe that a draft is the correct thing to do at any time.  Some folks don't have the make-up for it.  It doesn't make them less American or patriotic or valuable to the country.  It means that they don't have the mental ability to handle the cause and effect rationale of being put into that position (that's not an insult, so please don't take it that way). 

That being said, the most important thing I want a soldier with a rifle to have is "common sense".  I don't believe that this person showed that he had that, at least at this moment in his life, so I am quite glad that they would take his rifle away from him. 

2008-05-19 11:22 AM
in reply to: #1410714

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Giver
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Subject: RE: Soldier dismissed for shooting a book
CBarnes - 2008-05-19 11:23 AM

run4yrlif - 2008-05-19 6:47 AM It makes sense to me. If we're supposed to be the good guys over there, we probably shouldn't be pooping on their religion.

 

Oh Oh  here we go again I agree with Jim The soldier was in the wrong.  In the kind of war we are conducting we need/want the locals to respect us we will not get that by showing disrespect.  Killing those that wish to kill us is understandable and acceptable disrespecting the people is not.  While serving in the Navy we were briefed on local customs and instructed not to do things to intentionally offend the locals I am sure the guy will not have his career seriously harmed but the commander had to take some action.

 

And so the other thing is, whenever you're abroad (whether for military service or what have you), you're obligated to observe your host country's laws. Whether you like them or not. I don't know for sure, but I believe it's illegal to deface the Quran in most Muslim countries.


2008-05-19 11:51 AM
in reply to: #1410118

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Master
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Subject: RE: Soldier dismissed for shooting a book
Did he know it was the Quran? And if they aren't left lying about, then how did he come across one to use as a target? Back in the day, we used to pick up something we found to shoot at. Target practice (at a gravel pit - yeah I'm from a small town) consisted of empty boxes and whatever was around - a tin can,a chunk of wood, etc. Unless he purposefully went somewhere to get one (inexcusable), how would it be a convenient thing to shoot at?
2008-05-20 9:12 AM
in reply to: #1410893

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Subject: RE: Soldier dismissed for shooting a book

"And so the other thing is, whenever you're abroad (whether for military service or what have you), you're obligated to observe your host country's laws. Whether you like them or not. I don't know for sure, but I believe it's illegal to deface the Quran in most Muslim countries."

I agree...which means I also feel strongly that when people come to visit OUR country, they should observe our laws and customs as well.  It seems like people tend to forget that we also have our own American ways of living, belief systems and expectations on how to act.  So many people come over here feeling entitled to all we have to offer, and expect us to cater to their ways of living and beliefs. 

(kind of an off-the-subject rant...sorry)



Edited by hamiltks10 2008-05-20 9:12 AM
2008-05-20 9:26 AM
in reply to: #1413199

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Subject: RE: Soldier dismissed for shooting a book
hamiltks10 - 2008-05-20 10:12 AM

"And so the other thing is, whenever you're abroad (whether for military service or what have you), you're obligated to observe your host country's laws. Whether you like them or not. I don't know for sure, but I believe it's illegal to deface the Quran in most Muslim countries."

I agree...which means I also feel strongly that when people come to visit OUR country, they should observe our laws and customs as well.  It seems like people tend to forget that we also have our own American ways of living, belief systems and expectations on how to act.  So many people come over here feeling entitled to all we have to offer, and expect us to cater to their ways of living and beliefs. 

(kind of an off-the-subject rant...sorry)

Interesting point. 

Exactly what are "our ways of living"? Being the melting pot and all, isn't that pretty hard to define? Maybe if you gave an example...

2008-05-20 11:05 AM
in reply to: #1410118

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Subject: RE: Soldier dismissed for shooting a book
my guess...it was a 3rd strike deal.  rules are rules.
2008-05-20 11:13 AM
in reply to: #1413256

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Subject: RE: Soldier dismissed for shooting a book
run4yrlif - 2008-05-20 9:26 AM

Interesting point. 

Exactly what are "our ways of living"? Being the melting pot and all, isn't that pretty hard to define? Maybe if you gave an example...



Public nudity is frowned upon.

Women may speak freely in public.

A verbal contract is binding.

Any religion is accepted, provided it does not cause believers to break laws.

Those are a few that come to mind.


2008-05-20 11:36 AM
in reply to: #1410118

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Subject: RE: Soldier dismissed for shooting a book
Here's a totally different thought about it - in the past, if you wanted to get taken out of combat, you had to get shot, so you might shoot yourself in the foot.  But if all you had to do is shoot the book, wouldn't you consider it?
2008-05-20 11:58 AM
in reply to: #1413616

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Giver
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Subject: RE: Soldier dismissed for shooting a book
eberulf - 2008-05-20 12:13 PM
run4yrlif - 2008-05-20 9:26 AM

Interesting point. 

Exactly what are "our ways of living"? Being the melting pot and all, isn't that pretty hard to define? Maybe if you gave an example...

Public nudity is frowned upon. Women may speak freely in public. A verbal contract is binding. Any religion is accepted, provided it does not cause believers to break laws. Those are a few that come to mind.

Right, but is it that often when people come to the US and get naked, tell women to shut up, tell you you can't practice your religion?

2008-05-20 11:59 AM
in reply to: #1413688

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Subject: RE: Soldier dismissed for shooting a book

gearboy - 2008-05-20 12:36 PM Here's a totally different thought about it - in the past, if you wanted to get taken out of combat, you had to get shot, so you might shoot yourself in the foot.  But if all you had to do is shoot the book, wouldn't you consider it?

Shoot yourself in the foot = honorable discharge (although, these days it takes a lot more to get a medical discharge, I think).

Shoot the Quran = dishonorable discharge (I would think).

2008-05-20 8:37 PM
in reply to: #1413788

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Subject: RE: Soldier dismissed for shooting a book

"Right, but is it that often when people come to the US and get naked, tell women to shut up, tell you you can't practice your religion?"

Actually...yes.  I've seen several news stories about certain groups of people complaining about the display of Christmas decorations, the playing of Holiday music, etc.  But then the same groups are fighting for public ringing of prayor bells several times a day...public funding of foot baths at state Universities...etc. 

So...from what I've seen recently, it's ok for some to practice and celebrate their religion while it's not for others.

 

2008-05-21 2:47 AM
in reply to: #1413794

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Subject: RE: Soldier dismissed for shooting a book
run4yrlif - 2008-05-20 12:59 PM

[Shoot yourself in the foot = honorable discharge (although, these days it takes a lot more to get a medical discharge, I think).

Shoot the Quran = dishonorable discharge (I would think).

Deliberately shooting yourself in the foot to avoid duty is likely going to get yourself some behind bars. 

Depends on the situation with shooting the Quran.  A less than honorable discharge is a very serious deal - something that follows you the rest of your life.  Using a Quran for target practice certainly shows poor judgement, but not something that merits servere punishment in my view.  I'll give the benefit of doubt to anyone serving in a combat zone.

Mark 



2008-05-21 6:12 AM
in reply to: #1415059

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Giver
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Subject: RE: Soldier dismissed for shooting a book
hamiltks10 - 2008-05-20 9:37 PM

"Right, but is it that often when people come to the US and get naked, tell women to shut up, tell you you can't practice your religion?"

Actually...yes.  I've seen several news stories about certain groups of people complaining about the display of Christmas decorations, the playing of Holiday music, etc.  But then the same groups are fighting for public ringing of prayor bells several times a day...public funding of foot baths at state Universities...etc. 

So...from what I've seen recently, it's ok for some to practice and celebrate their religion while it's not for others.

But are those groups tourists or visa holders? I'm talking about visiting countries and respectiing their laws and customs, not citizens making a stink.

If you could give examples, I'd love to read them.

2008-05-21 6:16 AM
in reply to: #1415447

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Giver
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Subject: RE: Soldier dismissed for shooting a book
RedCorvette - 2008-05-21 3:47 AM
run4yrlif - 2008-05-20 12:59 PM

[Shoot yourself in the foot = honorable discharge (although, these days it takes a lot more to get a medical discharge, I think).

Shoot the Quran = dishonorable discharge (I would think).

Deliberately shooting yourself in the foot to avoid duty is likely going to get yourself some behind bars. 

Depends on the situation with shooting the Quran.  A less than honorable discharge is a very serious deal - something that follows you the rest of your life.  Using a Quran for target practice certainly shows poor judgement, but not something that merits servere punishment in my view.  I'll give the benefit of doubt to anyone serving in a combat zone.

Mark 

It seems like anyone who's trying to get out by proverbially shooting themselves in the foot isn't going to say "I deliberately shot myself in the foot!" They'd make it look like an accident.

Hypothetically, if a foreign soldier stationed in the US broke a US law, but the act was something that was legal in his or her homeland (say, a Dutch soldier fired up a joint in a coffee shop), should that person be held accountable under US law? 

2008-05-21 6:34 AM
in reply to: #1410630

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Subject: RE: Soldier dismissed for shooting a book
Big Sexy - 2008-05-19 10:02 AM

It must feel constrictive to live in a world where one's spirituality and faith can be evaluated by the treatment of a physical object.  I find it odd that spiritual leaders are more concerned by the treatment of a representative object rather than the loss of the lives of others simply because they do not agree on religious matters.

One human family...

 

 I couldn't agree more. Too bad "The God Delusion" is probably not available in the ME.

 

2008-05-21 6:43 AM
in reply to: #1415500

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Subject: RE: Soldier dismissed for shooting a book
run4yrlif - 2008-05-21 7:16 AM
RedCorvette - 2008-05-21 3:47 AM
run4yrlif - 2008-05-20 12:59 PM

[Shoot yourself in the foot = honorable discharge (although, these days it takes a lot more to get a medical discharge, I think).

Shoot the Quran = dishonorable discharge (I would think).

Deliberately shooting yourself in the foot to avoid duty is likely going to get yourself some behind bars. 

Depends on the situation with shooting the Quran.  A less than honorable discharge is a very serious deal - something that follows you the rest of your life.  Using a Quran for target practice certainly shows poor judgement, but not something that merits servere punishment in my view.  I'll give the benefit of doubt to anyone serving in a combat zone.

Mark 

It seems like anyone who's trying to get out by proverbially shooting themselves in the foot isn't going to say "I deliberately shot myself in the foot!" They'd make it look like an accident.

Hypothetically, if a foreign soldier stationed in the US broke a US law, but the act was something that was legal in his or her homeland (say, a Dutch soldier fired up a joint in a coffee shop), should that person be held accountable under US law? 

There's lots of ways to get out of the service if you really want to without resorting to self-inflicted wounds.  Just don't count on getting an honorable discharge.

Unless a foreign soldier has diplomatic immunity, they're subject to our local laws.  Same as applies to our troops when serving overseas. 

Mark

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