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2008-06-16 1:09 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Everyday, Overkill?
ranger5oh - 2008-06-16 1:02 PM Ive tried the swimming thing, and swam a lot... my swim time got better.. by like 2 minutes. Overall, its just not worth it to ME. Maybe it would have benefitted me more in Alcatraz, but thats not a typical triathlon.
you are still missing the point... Anyway, if your goal in the future is to move up the ranks maybe then you'll get to understand what I posted previously. cheers


2008-06-16 4:18 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Everyday, Overkill?
amiine - 2008-06-15 9:44 AMAnyway, the point is that swim training might make you a bit faster in the water BUT it will definitely make you faster on the bike and run and if you spent some time working on that (it takes more than 10K per week) you might have passed the same amount of people but you would have started far ahead than 1200th out of the water and not so spent.



Just let me understand - the point is to get out of the water faster and with less energy expended. The cost is 10K+ in the pool per week.
2008-06-16 4:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Everyday, Overkill?
amiine - 2008-06-16 1:09 PM

ranger5oh - 2008-06-16 1:02 PM Ive tried the swimming thing, and swam a lot... my swim time got better.. by like 2 minutes. Overall, its just not worth it to ME. Maybe it would have benefitted me more in Alcatraz, but thats not a typical triathlon.
you are still missing the point... Anyway, if your goal in the future is to move up the ranks maybe then you'll get to understand what I posted previously. cheers


I see Ranger's point. He doesn't want to train more in the swim at the expense of training in the bike and run. He tried that ratio previously and didn't like the results.

I undertrained in the bike last year and suffered for it. I know if I dedicated enough of my total available training time to swim 10K a week in the pool, it would be even worse. I was fresh out of the water every time, and still underperformed the bike.

Edited by eberulf 2008-06-16 4:58 PM
2008-06-16 7:35 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Everyday, Overkill?

I know there are people on the BT forums that swim better than I do, know more about swimming than I do , and even coach/teach swimmers. So what I say may not be generally agreed upon.  

It seem that people are spending a lot of time talking about how many yards they need to swim to become a better swimmer, and that may not be the correct question to ask. Years ago (and I mean years) when I swam competitively, there was a story circulating about Johnny Weismuler (for those too young, he not only played Tarzan and Jungle Jim, but was an Olympic Gold Medal swimmer).

The story went like this. Everyday Johnny would work out in a pool for approximately 500 yards. At the end the workout his coach would tell him to go home and think about the things he had been practicing. That was his training program. While this surely has the smell of urban myth, it does make a point.

 It is not necessarily the yardage or time you spend swimming, it is the quality of your workouts. That is why I do not listen to music when I swim, although I frequently have a song in my mind. I know there are many triathletes that swear by these MP3 players in the water, but I have NEVER seen a competitive swimmer using one. If you are not focusing on your swimming, your technique and effort, you are not getting the most of your time in the water. I had a coach that used to refer to that kind of swimming as putting in garbage yardage.

 To develop good technique it can take a long time, but the net effect is that you will swim faster with less effort. It might be helpful to try to focus on developing that technique in the off season when spending more time swimming at the expense of biking and running won't hurt your performances. Consider it an investment. Those are just my thoughts that have worked for me over the years. If you disagree, please don't jump all over me. In the end it is your body, your abilities and your training time that will frame what is best for you.

 

2008-06-16 7:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Everyday, Overkill?
BabsVa - 2008-06-16 4:18 PM
amiine - 2008-06-15 9:44 AMAnyway, the point is that swim training might make you a bit faster in the water BUT it will definitely make you faster on the bike and run and if you spent some time working on that (it takes more than 10K per week) you might have passed the same amount of people but you would have started far ahead than 1200th out of the water and not so spent.

 

Just let me understand - the point is to get out of the water faster and with less energy expended. The cost is 10K+ in the pool per week.
if you are not a swimmer, then most likely yes. to become a good swimmer you have to dedicate the time and this can be done through different phases so you can allocate enough time to all 3 sports. But the point some seem to be missing is that it is not the speed gain on the swim that will produce the biggest benefit, it will be the energy that you will be able to spend on the bike and run.
2008-06-16 7:58 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Everyday, Overkill?
eberulf - 2008-06-16 4:54 PM
amiine - 2008-06-16 1:09 PM
ranger5oh - 2008-06-16 1:02 PM Ive tried the swimming thing, and swam a lot... my swim time got better.. by like 2 minutes. Overall, its just not worth it to ME. Maybe it would have benefitted me more in Alcatraz, but thats not a typical triathlon.
you are still missing the point... Anyway, if your goal in the future is to move up the ranks maybe then you'll get to understand what I posted previously. cheers
I see Ranger's point. He doesn't want to train more in the swim at the expense of training in the bike and run. He tried that ratio previously and didn't like the results. I undertrained in the bike last year and suffered for it. I know if I dedicated enough of my total available training time to swim 10K a week in the pool, it would be even worse. I was fresh out of the water every time, and still underperformed the bike.
you are also missing my point but it is ok


2008-06-16 8:06 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Everyday, Overkill?
Amiine... dont get me wrong... i always value your input.

What I have found for me, is that I suck at swimming. I dont have money for a coach right now, so improving my form just isnt going to happen.

The other thing is, its like the old saying goes... "it never gets easier, you just get faster." SO really, training more in the pool is going to make me faster out of the water. If I come out of the water any less drained than normal, I didnt do it right. So it really isnt about saved energy. Sure, if I sandbag the swim I can conserve more for the bike and run... but that never seems to be my problem. My bike and run times are consistent with what I expect from my training...the swim beforehand never seems to affect it. This may not be the motto for long distance, but for Oly's, its all out, all the time.
2008-06-16 9:10 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Everyday, Overkill?
E=H2O - 2008-06-16 7:35 PM

Years ago (and I mean years) when I swam competitively, there was a story circulating about Johnny Weismuler (for those too young, he not only played Tarzan and Jungle Jim, but was an Olympic Gold Medal swimmer).

The story went like this. Everyday Johnny would work out in a pool for approximately 500 yards. At the end the workout his coach would tell him to go home and think about the things he had been practicing. That was his training program. While this surely has the smell of urban myth, it does make a point.

 It is not necessarily the yardage or time you spend swimming, it is the quality of your workouts.

Johnny Weismueller may very well have swum few yards, but quality yards.  However, I'm sure he'd have benefited from a lot more yards.  He broke the 100 meter world record in a smokin' 58.6 in 1922.  Any good high school swimmer can do that today, in part because they put in a lot more yardage!

Brian  

 

2008-06-16 9:32 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Everyday, Overkill?
famelec - 2008-06-16 9:10 PM 

Johnny Weismueller may very well have swum few yards, but quality yards.  However, I'm sure he'd have benefited from a lot more yards.  He broke the 100 meter world record in a smokin' 58.6 in 1922.  Any good high school swimmer can do that today, in part because they put in a lot more yardage!

Brian  

 

 +1

 But I bet that the overwhelming majority of the people on this forum would die to be able to swim that fast. :-)

 

2008-06-17 1:23 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Everyday, Overkill?
I am working with a coach this season and she had my drop from three swims a week to one. Swimming is my strongest leg, I have limited time to train, and she thought I was wasting opportunity to improve on the bike and run. In my last sprint tri I had a p.r. in the 5k run, and I still shaved :46 off my swim from last year. So, for me, reducing my swim time and replacing it with more running and biking has been the right way to go. The one swim I do every week is an organized, one-hour coached session that is at a much higher level of intensity than any swim training I was doing during my solo sessions.
2008-06-17 2:54 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Everyday, Overkill?

I love to swim, so I go for the daily swim workout. I put in between 3000 to 4000 yards daily at lunch. While some might say that is overkill, I am very confident when I hit the water, and the regular cardio workout serves me well with my bike and run.

Good Luck



2008-06-17 9:39 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Everyday, Overkill?

ranger5oh - 2008-06-16 8:06 PM Amiine... dont get me wrong... i always value your input. What I have found for me, is that I suck at swimming. I dont have money for a coach right now, so improving my form just isnt going to happen. The other thing is, its like the old saying goes... "it never gets easier, you just get faster." SO really, training more in the pool is going to make me faster out of the water. If I come out of the water any less drained than normal, I didnt do it right. So it really isnt about saved energy. Sure, if I sandbag the swim I can conserve more for the bike and run... but that never seems to be my problem. My bike and run times are consistent with what I expect from my training...the swim beforehand never seems to affect it. This may not be the motto for long distance, but for Oly's, its all out, all the time.

 

That's not necessarily true. For example let's say right now you hold 1:45 100's in your swims. Then you put in a lot of good quality water time and can hold 1:20 100's with the same effort. Now in your race you don't have you hold 1:20's and can probably hold 1:30's at a much much easier pace and use considerably less energy. This will leave you faster and more refreshed for the bike/run. Now if like someone else mentioned earlier you have a limited amount of time to train per week and swimming is going to cut a big chunk of time out of your bike/run training this may or may not be a good idea. If your looking at it long term I do believe even sacrificing a good chunk of your bike/run time to swimming can be beneficial. Once you learn proper form/technique and get it drilled into your brain you will never really forget it. This will enable you in the long run to swim less later on and still be faster.

 

Edit: To add to that running/biking is more about putting the mileage in and swimming is about learning good form. So if you learn good form now you will always have it and then later down the road you can swim less and still be faster. However if you put in a ton of time now on the bike/run it won't necessarily translate into being able ot go faster doing less down the road.



Edited by JoshR 2008-06-17 9:42 AM
2008-06-17 9:45 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Everyday, Overkill?
My father said he went once on a double date with Johnny Weissmuller.
2008-06-17 10:11 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Everyday, Overkill?

Here is what it boils down to.  Swimming taxes your body aerobically.  You're body doesn't care how it's being taxed aerobically, it will adapt to give you fitness gains.  As has been said, so many people are focusing on the time benefits of more swimming.  Yes, you should get time benefits by swimming more (I currently swim 4-5x/week) but you will become more efficient. 

The more efficient you become, the more energy you have for the race.  It's no different than becoming more efficient at running or cycling.  You spend less energy and you get faster.  Also, what I have found out, is that the race is much different the quicker you come out of the water.

Yes, you might "only" gain 2 min in the swim, but now you are with typically faster bikers and runners.  This means you are most likely pushing yourself more and you will have a faster race. (Note:  This is my experience and what I have gathered from conversations).

So, in short, swimming more is not going to just make you a faster swimmer.  It's going to help your overall race. 

2008-06-17 10:23 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Everyday, Overkill?

It's very simple.  To be the most effective all arounder in a race .......... train your weakness, race your strength.

The hands-down most stereotypical reaction in this sport is "I hate 'x' but i'm good at 'y' so I'm going to focus on 'y' because I can be even faster at it easier!"  Then they do just enough of "x" to get by and finish.

I am a strong cyclist and (assuming my training is up to speed and I'm not relying on shear experience to get me through the bike like I am now) a strong runner.  But what keeps me off of the podium or at least out of contention is the swim.  In an olympic I'm giving up 5 - 8 minutes on the leaders in my age group.  That's a lifetime.

And you can never "make up" time on the bike or run.  You simply are performing to your ability in those disciplines.

To be a better runner, you need to run outdoors lots.  To be a better cyclist you need to ride your bike outdoors lots.  To be a better swimmer you need to be in the water lots.  It is very simple.  "Average" decent runners are putting in about 40 - 60 miles per week.  Average USCF cyclists are riding 200 miles or so a week. "Average" kids on swim teams are swimming 20k a week.

So why is it triathletes bit-h and moan about their speed when they typically are doing less than a 1/4 - 1/2 of what stand alone athletes in their sport do???

It is pretty simple when you scrape away all the bulls-it.  Train like you mean it, and if you are busting your azz and still getting nowhere, it's time to re-evaluate your training methods and approach, get a coach, or get a different coach.

2008-06-17 10:37 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Everyday, Overkill?
Daremo - 2008-06-17 10:23 AM

It's very simple.  To be the most effective all arounder in a race .......... train your weakness, race your strength.

The hands-down most stereotypical reaction in this sport is "I hate 'x' but i'm good at 'y' so I'm going to focus on 'y' because I can be even faster at it easier!"  Then they do just enough of "x" to get by and finish.

...........


I agree 100%. My weakest sport last year by far was the bike. In my A Olympic distance race, I finished ~top 30% in the swim and in the run, but close to bottom 30% in the bike. I understand that if I am was a better swimmer that I would be fresher on the bike. However, considering the bike was also my worst sport in sprints that had short swims, I think I should dedicate more of my limited training time to bike. Apparently, that is missing the point somehow.


2008-06-17 10:47 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Everyday, Overkill?

eberulf - 2008-06-17 11:37 AM I agree 100%. My weakest sport last year by far was the bike. In my A Olympic distance race, I finished ~top 30% in the swim and in the run, but close to bottom 30% in the bike. I understand that if I am was a better swimmer that I would be fresher on the bike. However, considering the bike was also my worst sport in sprints that had short swims, I think I should dedicate more of my limited training time to bike. Apparently, that is missing the point somehow.

Not quite.  My post was more of an all around training post.  The OP said that they could do the swim well but wanted to know if focusing on swimming 5 days a week was the right approach.

If swimming is their strength, then I would say no, don't spend more training hours then needed unless that is the choice they want to make, knowing that their weakness probably lies in another area.

The other main discussion in the thread is the importance of the swim and swimming in general.  As Dan said, swimming is no impact and great for aerobic training.  It will help your overall fitness and in some capacity your bike and run.

I'm not focusing on running right now because I did that all winter and early spring.  I'm in "maintenance mode" with my run until I can get my bike and swim back up to speed.  Sounds like the OP could go into a maint. mode as well with swimming 3 or 4 times a week and be okay.  But if it is still a weakness, or they simply enjoy it a lot, then certainly train as much as you want in the water!  This is supposed to be enjoyable.  Just don't bit-h on race day if something else suffers from lack of training, because that was a conscious choice.



Edited by Daremo 2008-06-17 10:48 AM
2008-06-17 10:55 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Everyday, Overkill?

Thanks for posting that article.  It just perfectly answered my question.  I am a decent runner, getting decent on the bike, and just hold my own on the swim.  But now I realize why I cannot duplicate my lone run times in the Triathlons ... I need to swim more.  This makes perfect sense!  Even when I BRICK, I can still within a 10% margin, duplicate my lone run times.  So it's gotta be the swim. 

See you guys at the pool

2008-06-17 12:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Everyday, Overkill?
When my yardage was at its highest (8k/week) was when I felt the best. My times improved about 10sec/100m when I would do a 1000m TTif I had been swimming 4-5x/week, but that wasn't the best thing. I just felt better all day long when I was going more than 3 days/week. Biking was unchanged but my running improved with the increased swimming. Was it just the natural progression as my fitness improved since starting tri training in Feb? Maybe, but with a schedule change recently and less time in the pool, that 'good' feeling has decreased as has the running improvement. From a complete neophyte triathlete, I think the more you swim the better....at least it has been for me.....my 2c

Edited by Rad-Onc PA 2008-06-17 12:54 PM
2008-07-17 7:18 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Everyday, Overkill?
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