General Discussion Triathlon Talk » TOTW: Clinchers VS Tubulars. Rss Feed  
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2008-07-21 12:41 PM

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Master
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Subject: TOTW: Clinchers VS Tubulars.
This topic may or may not generate a lot of interest, but it's a debate that is foundational to the Bike. The question is, Clinchers Vs Tubulars, what do you ride, what do you prefer, and why? Someone might want to post a good definition / explanation as to what each tire is. Also, consider training vs racing as part of the debate.

Sticky Date Range: Monday, July 21st, through Sunday, July 27th.


2008-07-21 1:00 PM
in reply to: #1545953

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Slower Than You
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Subject: RE: TOTW: Clinchers VS Tubulars.
I've ridden clinchers all my life, just because that's what was available.

I'm in the process of getting a set of tubulars, so it'll be interesting noticing any differences in the ride.

The maintenance/glue factor of tubular wheels/tires certainly plays into the "everyday" and "flat repair" aspects.
2008-07-21 1:42 PM
in reply to: #1545953

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Extreme Veteran
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Subject: RE: TOTW: Clinchers VS Tubulars.
I think the biggest thing about tubulars that puts people off is the difficulty in changing them? Anybody shed any light on that? Might just be a mis-perception...
2008-07-21 3:59 PM
in reply to: #1545953

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Pro
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Subject: RE: TOTW: Clinchers VS Tubulars.

Clinchers vs Tubulars....great topic

Back in the "old days" clinchers were significatly heavier than tubulars. Recently clincher technology has produced a wheel that is just slightly heavier than the corresponding tubular wheel.

Most people train on clinchers and race on tubulars and that is more a function of economics than weight or performance. When you flat on a clincher you pull out a $5 tube and replace it and go about your business. Normally when a tubular goes flat it is a puncture or a valve problem which necessitates replaceing and regluing an entirely new tire ($50-100 depending on model). Tubular wheels are also generally carbon and not built to withstand the pounding of everyday training.

Last weekend at Chattanooga I saw a ton of people on the side of the road with flat tires as a result of pinch flats (where the tube is pinched between the tire and rim and punctures) due to the pot holes and seams on the road. Tubular tires when properly inflated are virtually indestructable so you don't have that problem.

Some people are intimidated by changing a tubular tire when in reality IMO it's easier than a clincher. When you have a flat on a tubular you basically peel the old tire off and then stretch the new tire around the wheel and inflate. It really is that easy. The toughest part is peeling the old tire off the rim. When you buy new rims it is best to get a professional to glue the tires on if you don't know what you are doing.

2008-07-21 4:15 PM
in reply to: #1545953

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Pro
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Subject: RE: TOTW: Clinchers VS Tubulars.

I just bought a pair of clincher Zipp 606's (used).  I was going to stick with tradition and go tubular insomuch as I have heard that:

1) better performance out of the tire, particularly cornering and rolling resistance due to ability to hold higher pressures;
2) harder to get a flat as the tires are more durable with no chance for a pinch flat (or similar);
3) ease of changing a tire if you do get a puncture (no tire levers, tube, reinsert clincher, etc.);
4) tubular wheelsets traditionally weigh less (for the weight-weenie in all of us); and,
5) tradition (and the attendant resale value?)... most folks opt for tubular.

I did not buy tubular and instead opted for clinchers, because:

A) the cost differential between a quality tubular and a clincher tire is stark;
B) I hear that gluing a tire is everything and this can be the difference between a quick change and a DNF -  just ask Norman Stadler;
C) there is a risk of damaging the lip of the rim when using a tire lever to 'unglue' the flatted tire; 
D) once changed, the only glue holding on the new tire is the old glue + the air pressure you get in via the CO2 cartridge(s);
E) tubular tires are more expensive and, since most training wheels are clinchers, it requires the purchase of at least three new tires. 

Thoughts?  Above points valid?  Any other reason to drive personal preference between the two?

 

 

2008-07-21 5:12 PM
in reply to: #1545953

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Champion
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Subject: RE: TOTW: Clinchers VS Tubulars.

I train with clinchers and race with tubulars.  It is hard to say that it is the tire itself, but I definitely like the feel of tubular/zipp combination.  I had clinchers on my Heds last year.  FWIW, I like the way the tubulars roll. For comparison, I train on Michelin Pro 2 and race on Vittoria Corsa Evo CX.

There is always the cost consideration.  For me it is $75-90 per tire.  The Pro 2 (were) running around $50 each.  But like everything else, you shop sales.  Performance does carry a number of quality tubulars for as low as $50.  

IMO, the weight issue is a moot point.  Carrying a spare tubular ends up weighing about the same as the heavier clinchers, tubes and spare tube.  I seriously doubt any of us are that picky over 25 extra grams. 

There is something to be said about changing a tire.  I hear tubulars are easier.  Haven't had to face it yet.  And as stated, you don't run the risk of pinch flats and the tires are supposed to be more puncture resistant.  As Brian/Brett pointed out, the tire does take some extra maintence in the form of stretching, glueing and mounting.  When you change it, you are stuck with a tire that isn't glued and sealed to the rim.  Now, you do pre-glue the spare and the glue apparently warms up quickly to form a bond with the rim.  The only caveat is that you shouldn't take hard turns / corners at fast rates.  I haven't been in too many races that have sharp turns at high speeds.  That is usually reserved for crits. 

That is my take on the issue.  I was reluctant at first and needed some reassurance.  The biggest issue was that I didn't know what to do in a flat (can't say that I still do).  In the long run, technology has shown that the rolling resistance and durability gap between tubulars and clinchers has closed quite a bit.  I don't think we see as much arguing over the matter except at those that make generalizations or those that have a preferred method.  In the end, it is a matter of preference.  Ride what you are comfortable with.

 

 



2008-07-21 7:13 PM
in reply to: #1545953

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Master
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Subject: RE: TOTW: Clinchers VS Tubulars.

I've never tried tubular but they are intimidating and I don't have anything constructive to add except that to call them tubulars is definitely a misnomer, IMO. They should be called NON-tubular. Kind of like the clips/clipless debate.

 

2008-07-22 6:07 AM
in reply to: #1545953

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Elite
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Subject: RE: TOTW: Clinchers VS Tubulars.

This is a great topic!  I spent some time last week trying to figure out if I should go tubular or clincher and what is a good tubular tire.  The difference in rolling resistance is very close and it really comes down to the make and model of each tire.  If you want to see the rolling resistance for a bunch of tires go here: http://www.biketechreview.com/tires/images/AFM_tire_testing_rev7.pdf

You can get a slightly better rolling resistance with a clincher and a latex tube, but if you use standard tubes (butyl) the advantage shifts back to tubular.  The real difference is in the weight of the tire and the wheel.  An all carbon tubular rim and tire will save you a couple hundred grams over a similar clincher set up.  From my "research" you can save (drum roll please) a whopping 25 secs in a 40km TT!  I'd bet I could have saved 25 secs if I swapped the hours I was researching for more time riding my bike!

The cost difference between clinchers and tubulars is pretty small.  A good tubular like the Vittoria $1.79 mentioned above is a light tubular with great rolling resistance and it costs $80.  If you go with a clincher with similar characteristics and a latex tube you will spend about $65. 

So, why did I go with tubulars?  I don't want flats while I'm racing.  They are far less likely to flat due to hitting a pot hole, but are just as likely to be cut by a sharp objects like glass.  

Doug

 

footnote:  if you want to listen or read more about the rolling resistance of tubular vs. clincher you can go here: http://tri-talk.com/weblog/ for the transcript or here: http://tri-talk.com/ and choose episode 64. 

2008-07-22 11:06 AM
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Master
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Subject: RE: TOTW: Clinchers VS Tubulars.
Good topic, and great information provided thus far!!

2008-07-22 12:00 PM
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Giver
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Subject: RE: TOTW: Clinchers VS Tubulars.

To me, the weight difference is the single most significant difference between tubulars and clinchers (especially when discussing race wheels). For example, here's a comparison between Zipp 808 front and 900 disk rear (700c):

 

 ClincherTubular
Front Wheel884665
Rear Wheel1222950
Tires400380
Tubes1020
Spares51190
Total Weight26592185

So, a Zipp 808 tubular wheelset saves you 474 grams (1.04 pounds). And since all of that weight is in the rims (identical hubs and spokes), that's more than a pound of rotating weight. And to me, that's pretty significant. 

Tires: Michelin Pro3Race (clincher), Vittoria Triathlon EVO CS (tubular)

Tubes: Continental Race Supersonic

Spares: for clinchers, weight of one tube; for tubulars, weight of one tire

2008-07-23 9:13 AM
in reply to: #1549087

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Pro
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Subject: RE: TOTW: Clinchers VS Tubulars.

Jim raised a good point about rolling/rotating weight whose importance should be expounded upon. There apparently is a marked difference as to where weight is on the bike - e.g. wheels, cransksets and so forth vs. elsewhere on the bike.

Think that is a good sub-topic, point of consideration for this discussion.

Anyone care to take a stab at explaining why this is so?

run4yrlif - 2008-07-22 1:00 PM

To me, the weight difference is the single most significant difference between tubulars and clinchers (especially when discussing race wheels). For example, here's a comparison between Zipp 808 front and 900 disk rear (700c):

 

 ClincherTubular
Front Wheel884665
Rear Wheel1222950
Tires400380
Tubes1020
Spares51190
Total Weight26592185

So, a Zipp 808 tubular wheelset saves you 474 grams (1.04 pounds). And since all of that weight is in the rims (identical hubs and spokes), that's more than a pound of rotating weight. And to me, that's pretty significant. 

Tires: Michelin Pro3Race (clincher), Vittoria Triathlon EVO CS (tubular)

Tubes: Continental Race Supersonic

Spares: for clinchers, weight of one tube; for tubulars, weight of one tire



2008-07-23 10:53 AM
in reply to: #1551658

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Champion
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Subject: RE: TOTW: Clinchers VS Tubulars.
brian - 2008-07-23 10:13 AM

Jim raised a good point about rolling/rotating weight whose importance should be expounded upon. There apparently is a marked difference as to where weight is on the bike - e.g. wheels, cransksets and so forth vs. elsewhere on the bike.

Think that is a good sub-topic, point of consideration for this discussion.

Anyone care to take a stab at explaining why this is so?

I nearly responded to Jim's post to stir that discussion...but decided otherwise.  I figure I can go to 'that other site' and watch a contest debate about the issue.  

FWIW, I know that my bike is lighter with my carbon rims and tubulars.  That's all the matters to me. 

2008-07-23 2:39 PM
in reply to: #1545953

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Pro
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Subject: RE: TOTW: Clinchers VS Tubulars.

Rolling weight is important because of rotational mass. If your wheels are heavier it takes more power to get them up to speed and keep them there for a duration of time. That is why there was the 650cc craze a few years ago.

I have always advised my athletes to save weight on things that rotate (i.e. wheels, cranks, pedals) and lay off on the other "super light" stuff. If you are worried about saving x grams on your aerobars or seat post my advice is lay off the cheeseburgers.

2008-07-23 4:09 PM
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Master
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Atlanta, Ga
Subject: RE: TOTW: Clinchers VS Tubulars.
The felt wheelset that came with my b12, are Felt proprietary, TTR3's, 40mm, and while they are aero, they are heavy, with a capitol H. So, good for training, but I need to get a wheelset for racing. This thread is helping me to better understand what I am looking for.
2008-07-23 4:32 PM
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Elite
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Subject: RE: TOTW: Clinchers VS Tubulars.

This a bit off topic:

 One thing to consider when you are shopping for wheels is the cost of all the other stuff you need to go with them:

3 tires- $240

tape/glue for tires- $10

Brake pads for carbon rims- $50

Valve extensions- $20

Tools to change the rear cog- $30

 

And don't forget once your wife figures out how nice they are you'll need to buy yourself a  new set of wheels. 

 

 



Edited by brown_dog_us 2008-07-23 4:33 PM
2008-07-23 8:17 PM
in reply to: #1545953

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Master
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Subject: RE: TOTW: Clinchers VS Tubulars.

When I was a hard core roadie, it was clinchers for training, tubes for racing.  The biggest reason for racing with tubes was rarely did they flat and they felt great.  Lance had one flat in 7 TDFs! Now this is back in the day and things have changed significantly. 

The biggest draw back is gluing them yourself.  Trust me, your first try will be filled full of frustration.  Once you do it a few times, it gets better.  I never got the hang of it.  So, I had the shop constantly check my racing set and pro-actively re-glue.   I can't comment on road side changes because I NEVER got a flat with tubulars.

 Today, it is simply easier to ride clinchers.  No glue, quick changes on the side of the road.  They make clinchers so light now that the reason for tubulars is narrowing.

Old school say tubulars have more soul and you feel the bike and road.  Most pros ride tubulars.



2008-07-27 7:45 AM
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Master
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Subject: RE: TOTW: Clinchers VS Tubulars.
Check out tri-talk July issue...rolling resistance piece contributes to this string....
2013-07-21 8:31 AM
in reply to: thecaptin

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Elite
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Subject: RE: TOTW: Clinchers VS Tubulars.
I have looked into tubulars and one of the main deterrents, for me, is cost...well, cost and the fact that IF you flat during a race, (I've heard) they're not as easy to change. This is probably just ignorance on my part, though, as I've never had to change a tubular. I can change a flat (clincher) in a few minutes and be on my way.

Clinchers have worked great for me. I can't remember the last time I had a flat on the road (knock on wood). I've been on pretty rough roads, too. This weekend, I've been riding all over Ft. Gordon and the roads here are riddled with cracks, holes, and all other types of uneven surfaces that would surely test the integrity of any tire/tube. I've had more flats from leaving my tires in the car on a hot day than from riding. They're dependable, they're inexpensive, and I can find deals for 5x or 10x tubes throughout the year.

Another thing...me and glue don't do well together. I can't use a tiny tube of super glue and not be glued to whatever I'm trying to bond. I'm afraid of what would happen if I tried glueing something my life depended on! When booming down hills at 45+ mph, I'd be a nervous wreck (ha!) thinking about whether I glued them properly.

I've also read that some clinchers can have less rolling resistance than tubulars b/c the glue that secures that tubular tire to the wheel actually has enough give that it increases rolling friction. So, you have less weight but more rolling resistance?

As an avid triathlete, I'm all for trying new things, but, for some reason, tubulars just don't have that appeal. Saving less than a half a minute on a 40km TT and reducing weight by 25-50 grams while spending 3x the amount I spend on a good set of clinchers and tubes are not worth it to me.
2013-07-24 6:15 AM
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Elite
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Subject: RE: TOTW: Clinchers VS Tubulars.

The info on this thread is really old, and tires have changed.  Here is a quick update:

 

Weight:  The new carbon clincher wheels are as light as tubular carbon wheels.

Rolling resistance:  You can now buy latex tubes and fast clincher tires over the internet.  The time saved with fast tubes and tires is about the same as switching to entry level (50mm) carbon wheels.  all3sports doesn't sell them, so you will have to use the internet or call the other stores.

Cost: The cost of a fast set of tubulars is about the same as the cost of a good set of clinchers and latex tubes.  It's a lot cheaper to change a tube when you flat.  



Edited by brown_dog_us 2013-07-24 6:25 AM
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