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2008-07-23 10:54 PM

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Subject: What's wrong with Clearwater?
So as to not hijack the Clearwater Slot Allocation thread I want to address something that was noted among a few posters, mainly that the Clearwater course was considered undesirable. I'm wondering why this is?


2008-07-24 6:33 AM
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with Clearwater?

Oh, where to begin???!!!

I've done this race twice and didn't have as significant problems as many have mentioned (drafting), however, there are several areas that are fairly, if not very problematic.

First of all, there are not enough waves to break people up.  The number of waves was increased in 07 vs 06, but it's still not enough and are still too close together.  So, after enjoying a 1.2 mile swim with several hundred of your closest friends (because the level of competition is higher than an average 70.3, the pack is even closer together in each wave), you are then treated to a pancake flat bike course that features just about zero ability to break athletes up.  Here is the main source of pain for most who've done the race.  Because the course is so flat and the level of competition is so much closer together, drafting is almost impossible to avoid.  Additionally, (although it improved a bit in 07) traffic safety has been an issue.  The course travels through some pretty busy parts of town and has open intersections with heavy traffic.  The police have done an OK job in trying to manage traffic flow, but it has been problematic.

Anyway, as for the run, no complaints.  Like the bike, it is pancake flat with the exception of one longer climb over the causeway which is done 4 times (2 loops, over the causeway twice).  So, all in all, the race's "black eyes" can be distilled down to the lack of enough waves to break the 2000 racers out and the flat bike course which virtually guarantees drafting.  Also, I believe WTC has a 5 year contract with the city of Clearwater, so you most likely won't see a venue change for another 3 years...if ever.  Hope this helps! 

2008-07-24 8:06 AM
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with Clearwater?
Yeah...check out the bike spolits. From what I've heard, the course makes it fairly impossible to conduct a fair (non-drafting) race.
2008-07-24 8:12 AM
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with Clearwater?
Sounds like the IMFL complaints.
2008-07-24 8:16 AM
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with Clearwater?

I couldn't race on 06 (sick) but last year overall I enjoyed the race very much. That been said the reason why I mentioned a course venue would be desirable IMO is not really for any specific shortcomings from the WTC or the race itself but more because of the feel the race has and from what I perceived a not so enthusiastic acceptance from the local community.

The race itself I though it was top notch: organization was great, transitions were pretty cool, the swim was fun, the bike is where it got iffy safety wise, the whole drafting complains IMO are a bit of a red herring because there was enough space and marshals to do the right thing (IOW avoid drafting) at most parts of the course. Some areas of the course were so narrow it was almost impossible to not draft at some point but it is different to draft for a few seconds and then get on your legal position rather than be ok with it and continue to do so all the time. Once we got out of the city onto the big highway the road was wide enough to ride legal with no issues. If anyone was drafting is because they wanted to do so plain and simple. Yes a flat course it is always going to lend itself to this kind of stuff but if as athletes we can’t do the right thing then it doesn’t matter what race course we are racing. The run was fun for most part and challenging cuz of the big bridge. All stations were very well supplied and volunteer support was awesome as always.

The problem as I see it for the bike course was the route and the safety concerns for us participants. It seems people in Clearwater are not too welcoming of the race and the fact that the bike course comes though big downtown streets it created scary situations when going out or coming back into town (last 10 miles). Don’t remember the name of the street but coming back we went though this big street in which we had the right lane for ourselves but on the right we had connecting streets and or business and on the left 2-3 lanes of traffic jam. Some motorists were getting very impatient and began crossing onto our lane to get onto other streets or just because they needed to get into a local business. I saw a lot of close calls and once accident. That portion of the race I didn’t rode on the aero position at all and didn’t care for speed I was more concern by getting hit by a car.

Before the race I didn’t see much of promotion or talk about the race outside the peer area. The local paper had some info about the race and local news did warned motorist about the race and streets closures, however since I was staying downtown, after the race what I heard the most was complaints and more complaints from the residents about the race, how many were going to fight against it and bla bla bla. It seems the RD and organizers have a lot of work to do to get Clearwater residents more involved or at least welcoming of the race and the economic benefit it provides to them. Until then I think it will be tough to deliver the whole package and for this race to really have a championship feel

I want to go back (and planning to) and compete against some of the best AGers because that for me is the fun of these events. I don’t care for the beauty of a course; don’t care much about the swag or the rock star treatment, cuz I see it as perk. All I want is to line up against some of the best but I want to do so on a safe course.

2008-07-24 8:19 AM
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with Clearwater?
Also, why would WTC pick Clearwater to hold a championship? Why not make the Hawaii 70.3 the championship race? Hawaii and triathlons sort of go hand-in-hand in people's minds, particularly non-triathletes. Especially so for races that contain the word "ironman".


2008-07-24 8:25 AM
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with Clearwater?

run4yrlif - 2008-07-24 8:06 AM Yeah...check out the bike spolits. From what I've heard, the course makes it fairly impossible to conduct a fair (non-drafting) race.
not all of that was due to the drafting. Those who cheated did so knowing what they were doing even though they had the option to ride legally.

Anyway on our way back on the big highway there was a huge tailwind for like 15-20 miles (dont' remember right now) but at that point a bike marshal broke a pack ahead of me and gave A LOT of penalties (many were forced to stop at the penalty tent just a few imles ahead, that was awesome to witness ) and that allowed me to ride relatively alone (with another 4 guys) all that stretch. I was avg 29-30 mph on 210-220 watts, IOW the tailwaind was so strung it literlaly felt someone was pushing me for the entire time...

2008-07-24 9:15 AM
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with Clearwater?
chriselam - 2008-07-24 8:19 AM Also, why would WTC pick Clearwater to hold a championship? Why not make the Hawaii 70.3 the championship race? Hawaii and triathlons sort of go hand-in-hand in people's minds, particularly non-triathletes. Especially so for races that contain the word "ironman".
Honestly, I would think the draw to Hawaii would be lower than clearwater mainly because of the cost.  I have never been to Hawaii but everything I have ever saw seems that the trip would be rather expensive and if you were going to a 70.3 not expecting to qualify, shelling out the  $$ that day and having to commit to travel to hawaii would be tough.
2008-07-24 9:25 AM
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with Clearwater?

chriselam - 2008-07-24 9:19 AM Also, why would WTC pick Clearwater to hold a championship? Why not make the Hawaii 70.3 the championship race? Hawaii and triathlons sort of go hand-in-hand in people's minds, particularly non-triathletes. Especially so for races that contain the word "ironman".

WTC has their headquarters outside of Clearwater.

2008-07-24 10:37 AM
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with Clearwater?

I agree with everything written here about the quality of the race organization.  Top notch and very well done.

However, I disagree with the opinion that drafters did so actively and deliberately.  I was not part of the masses, as I tend to get out of the water quickly, however, when the bulk of a 400 person wave comes out between 28-32 mins, you automatically create a peloton.  When in a group of this many people, the rules state that you must be 3 bike lengths behind your nearest racer and must stay so unless you are going to pass.  Once a decision to pass has been made, one must complete such a pass (no, you cannot give up and retreat back to your position!) in :30.  When you cluster dozens of like talented individuals on a course that fails to offer any ability to break up a pack, such clusters are forced to play surge and retreat games all day.  Add tight roads to the mix and you have virtually defaulted drafting.  Yes, there were plenty of active drafters out there, but the challenge of negotiating tight roads with dozens of people trying to race can be very, very difficult to worth through.

2008-07-25 10:48 AM
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with Clearwater?
I can't speak to 2006 but I did the race last year.

I agree that it is extremely tough when the bulk of the swimmers come out 28-30 minutes. To be honest I would like to see the WTC put the faster waves all up front (Send off Times) based on overall avg age group times from the prior year or even prior races that you qualified at. I am not sure if this would work or not but M30-34 and Jorge can attest to this, was sent off way late. We were like the 9th or 10th wave of the day. I rode my balls off out there and there was never a time where I was not passing people. It makes for some very dangerous situations.

I would much rather start right after the PRO waves and have a solid race with players of my ability or better. The overlap of catching waves in front of you is reduced from wave to wave because you only have a handful of let’s say the top 5-10% of each age group catching the slower people in the waves ahead of them.

I don't know if this strategy works or would work but it's just an option. Eagleman took a similar approach this year and I didn't see much drafting when "I" was on the course. Granted due to the 110 degree temps I was on the course a long time. Not to say it didn't happen, I am sure it did.

In Clearwater the draft packs I saw looked to me like a group of riders all of the same ability. Stuck in a huge pack probably due to swim times being similar. Now here comes the dilemma. If you’re in that pack what do you do? This is a WC type race. Do you sit in and have a conversation like a lot of the folks were doing or do you bust your a$$ to get out of the pack and take care of yourself...and race like your in a WC type race?

Again people, you're out there for yourself. I am not sure why folks get so bent out of shape with all of this. Take care of yourself on the course and do what's right for you. If that means getting stuck in a huge group because you simply can't bike away due to ability then that's the cards you’re dealt. Train harder or drop back...those are your options. Odds are, it's going to happen at Clearwater and it's going to happen at other races.... Philly Tri is a 2 loop OLY course with some short hills. Two years in a row it’s been a giant cluster fcuk of drafting and groups there. Why...very similar reasons to Clearwater. But the terrain is different.

I have seen pictures of Kona and packs of riders there too. Not that people don't mention it but my point is that it's EVERYWHERE!

I like the Clearwater venue. In time they will work the issues out. It's the 3rd year for the race. Give it a chance.



2008-07-25 11:15 AM
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with Clearwater?
kproudfoot - 2008-07-24 9:15 AM

chriselam - 2008-07-24 8:19 AM Also, why would WTC pick Clearwater to hold a championship? Why not make the Hawaii 70.3 the championship race? Hawaii and triathlons sort of go hand-in-hand in people's minds, particularly non-triathletes. Especially so for races that contain the word "ironman".
Honestly, I would think the draw to Hawaii would be lower than clearwater mainly because of the cost. I have never been to Hawaii but everything I have ever saw seems that the trip would be rather expensive and if you were going to a 70.3 not expecting to qualify, shelling out the $$ that day and having to commit to travel to hawaii would be tough.


Agreed. But I also think this would take away some of the appeal and draw that the full 140.6 has in Kona. While it's not the "holy grail" for everyone, it is for many and if you combine both in the same location, it wouldn't have the same appeal. It's good marketing to have them in separate locations so they both can be their own race.
2008-07-25 12:19 PM
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with Clearwater?
FWIW, Clearwater and Kona aren't even on the same planet!  Kona has over 7000 feet of climbing!  Any packs on that course are 100% the fault of the riders, regardless of talent.
2008-07-25 12:59 PM
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with Clearwater?
mwunderle - 2008-07-25 1:19 PM

FWIW, Clearwater and Kona aren't even on the same planet! Kona has over 7000 feet of climbing! Any packs on that course are 100% the fault of the riders, regardless of talent.


Dude, I'm not comparing races. Even a fool knows that's impossible. I am comparing the ever present drafting issues that seem to be surfacing at more and more races.

The sports popularity in the last 2-3 years has brought a lot more MOP to BOP guy’s gals to the races. As that happens the fields get flooded and clogged with average to below average people who are just out there for the experience and don't care about true racing. It makes our sport very unique (athletic diversity) but it also dilutes the talent pool and clogs the course.

Not complaining just making observations and I fully support anyone who laces them up or pulls the swim suit on…
2008-07-25 1:09 PM
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with Clearwater?

mwunderle - 2008-07-25 1:19 PM FWIW, Clearwater and Kona aren't even on the same planet!  Kona has over 7000 feet of climbing!  Any packs on that course are 100% the fault of the riders, regardless of talent.

FWIW, I doubt Kona has much more than half that amount.  (still way more than Clearwater, but...)

2008-07-25 1:38 PM
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with Clearwater?
JohnnyKay - 2008-07-25 1:09 PM

mwunderle - 2008-07-25 1:19 PM FWIW, Clearwater and Kona aren't even on the same planet!  Kona has over 7000 feet of climbing!  Any packs on that course are 100% the fault of the riders, regardless of talent.

FWIW, I doubt Kona has much more than half that amount.  (still way more than Clearwater, but...)



Yeah, I think Kona is like 4500 feet of climbing. And for the first 30 miles of QueenK, as I said in my RR, it was a draft/pack fast. It wasn't until the climb to Hawi that it broke up but then it REALLY spread out. The course is the single biggest contributor to this kind of issue and the only option for Clearwater would be to change the wave start system lake Gadzinm suggested, it would seem.


2008-07-25 2:06 PM
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with Clearwater?

mwunderle - 2008-07-25 12:19 PM FWIW, Clearwater and Kona aren't even on the same planet!  Kona has over 7000 feet of climbing!  Any packs on that course are 100% the fault of the riders, regardless of talent.
IMO the same applies to Clearwater. I don't buy the whole statement: "the course is flat, we all have similar capabilities hence it is imspossible not to draft."

You DO have a choice to ride clean (most of the time) whether you want to admit or not. Plus as Bryan said, even at Kona there was drafting at least on the 1st portion of the race...

2008-07-25 2:16 PM
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with Clearwater?
I think what happens at these big races is that when one guy passes another, the passed rider will try and drop back to the legal limit but meanwhile, 5 more guys also past and he just gets shuffled back. He's not even racing anymore, so he hits it hard and catches those guys, there are 12 guys behind hime going along as well.....It chaos!
2008-07-25 5:26 PM
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with Clearwater?
Gulf Coast in Panama City (also the site of IMFL) has the same problems. Two years ago I was passed by a peleton of M40-45 guys that I was 1.5 miles ahead of before the turn around and they caught me before the next 5 mile sign (and I was going 23+ at the time). They also feel the need to send off the older waves and females (yes I know some of you kick my @ss on a regular basis but for the most part females are slower than males) first and it clogs the course horribly for the first 20-25 miles or so. The last two years they have done a really good job of having an abundance of officials out there to break up the cheaters.
2008-07-25 11:23 PM
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with Clearwater?

FWIW Part II...

Polar 720i HR monitor with altitude....Kona, HI...10/13/07....Ascent 7340...running and biking combined....maybe its broken?  If someone has other data, please share...

2008-07-26 12:51 AM
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with Clearwater?

A little testy with the kona folks are we???  How about silverman in Las Vegas?  10,000ft of climb on the bike and another 2,000 on the run..  Now that is an Ironman my friends...  The only bike riding we have is uphill and downhill...  there are no flats... 

arent we are all in this for the lifestyle, lets quit the petty shiznit..  off to bed, my legs hurt Undecided



2008-07-26 7:29 AM
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with Clearwater?
mwunderle - 2008-07-25 11:23 PM

FWIW Part II...

Polar 720i HR monitor with altitude....Kona, HI...10/13/07....Ascent 7340...running and biking combined....maybe its broken?  If someone has other data, please share...



Hey Max, I'll try and find a really interesting elevation profile I found once. Also, there was a recent thread on Slowtwitch about this...but you know how that go's!
2008-07-26 4:34 PM
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with Clearwater?
lasvegas99 - 2008-07-26 12:51 AM

A little testy with the kona folks are we???  How about silverman in Las Vegas?  10,000ft of climb on the bike and another 2,000 on the run..  Now that is an Ironman my friends...  The only bike riding we have is uphill and downhill...  there are no flats... 

arent we are all in this for the lifestyle, lets quit the petty shiznit..  off to bed, my legs hurt Undecided

 we are not talking about tough IM distance courses, we are talking about the bike course for the 70.3 Championship and someone mentioned Kona (the IM Championship) ANYWAY, thanks for the tip
2008-07-26 5:01 PM
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2008-07-27 10:31 AM
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with Clearwater?
mwunderle - 2008-07-26 12:23 AM

FWIW Part II...

Polar 720i HR monitor with altitude....Kona, HI...10/13/07....Ascent 7340...running and biking combined....maybe its broken? If someone has other data, please share...

I thought you were just talking about the bike.  Still think that sounds like too much.  But, again, still way more than Clearwater (even if you double Clearwater to 'equate' the two). 

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