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2008-07-24 3:43 PM

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Subject: Race Pace vs. Training Pace

So, I was perusing some logs today of people on this site that did the Boulder Peak this past weekend. I see a fair amount of athlete who ran say 8:xx at the Peak for the 10k, yet during training they go out and run 7:xx - how does this happen? Why do people continually train faster than they race? I see this all the time - and if you are having trouble dialing in your race pace vs. training pace - please post here and we'll see if we can help you out. I think most of it is b/c people train too hard - and then when they get to race day - they crap the bed b/c they are just over done and they left their best race out on a training run.

Anyway - if you need help, post here, we'll see what we can do.



2008-07-24 3:54 PM
in reply to: #1556857

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace
I used to be in that boat. I would train and race at exactly the same speeds. Once I upped up my training volume, and slowed it down, I actually got faster at racing. Listening to advice here really does help!!
2008-07-24 4:47 PM
in reply to: #1556857

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace

This may not be what you're looking for with this thread, in which case, tell me to buzz off! I see a lot of people have been checking this thread out and nobody's posting, so I figure I'll put myself out there.  I've recently revised my training plans for fall with a sub-2:00 half-marathon as my stretch goal, so I've got a way to go in 3 months.    I'll take free coaching advice! 

I see my problem breaking down as something like this, and I'd bet this is a fairly common phenomenon: 

1)Not enough run base (obviously).  I should be putting in at least 20-mile weeks most of the time and I didn't get there this spring.  I'm starting over now, and am trying to be more disciplined.  My overall fitness is ok, but I just wasn't doing the time.

2) Training too fast most of the time (when you have less time to devote to it, you want to squeeze those miles hard and make 'em sing.  Quite the opposite of what I probably should be doing.)

3) Resultant lack of knowledge of my true limits makes me overly conservative on race day.

Like I said, I'll bet this is pretty typical, but it may not be the exact problem you're trying to resolve, so if it's not the discussion you want to have, don't sweat it.

2008-07-24 4:55 PM
in reply to: #1557049

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace
kanders - 2008-07-24 3:47 PM

This may not be what you're looking for with this thread, in which case, tell me to buzz off! I see a lot of people have been checking this thread out and nobody's posting, so I figure I'll put myself out there.  I've recently revised my training plans for fall with a sub-2:00 half-marathon as my stretch goal, so I've got a way to go in 3 months.    I'll take free coaching advice! 

I see my problem breaking down as something like this, and I'd bet this is a fairly common phenomenon: 

1)Not enough run base (obviously).  I should be putting in at least 20-mile weeks most of the time and I didn't get there this spring.  I'm starting over now, and am trying to be more disciplined.  My overall fitness is ok, but I just wasn't doing the time.

2) Training too fast most of the time (when you have less time to devote to it, you want to squeeze those miles hard and make 'em sing.  Quite the opposite of what I probably should be doing.)

3) Resultant lack of knowledge of my true limits makes me overly conservative on race day.

Like I said, I'll bet this is pretty typical, but it may not be the exact problem you're trying to resolve, so if it's not the discussion you want to have, don't sweat it.

Are you on a plan? Do you use a HRM? Do you know your LT? That will solve 99% of your issues.

2008-07-24 5:08 PM
in reply to: #1557080

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace
mikericci - 2008-07-24 4:55 PM
kanders - 2008-07-24 3:47 PM

This may not be what you're looking for with this thread, in which case, tell me to buzz off! I see a lot of people have been checking this thread out and nobody's posting, so I figure I'll put myself out there.  I've recently revised my training plans for fall with a sub-2:00 half-marathon as my stretch goal, so I've got a way to go in 3 months.    I'll take free coaching advice! 

I see my problem breaking down as something like this, and I'd bet this is a fairly common phenomenon: 

1)Not enough run base (obviously).  I should be putting in at least 20-mile weeks most of the time and I didn't get there this spring.  I'm starting over now, and am trying to be more disciplined.  My overall fitness is ok, but I just wasn't doing the time.

2) Training too fast most of the time (when you have less time to devote to it, you want to squeeze those miles hard and make 'em sing.  Quite the opposite of what I probably should be doing.)

3) Resultant lack of knowledge of my true limits makes me overly conservative on race day.

Like I said, I'll bet this is pretty typical, but it may not be the exact problem you're trying to resolve, so if it's not the discussion you want to have, don't sweat it.

Are you on a plan? Do you use a HRM? Do you know your LT? That will solve 99% of your issues.

I'm using a Hal Higdon half-marathon plan, and I've recently begun using my HRM after an ill-advised experiment with using RPE (it just didn't work for me - I know it works for others).  I do know my LT, although I should probably retest (my info is a year old).

2008-07-24 5:11 PM
in reply to: #1556857

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace
Mike,
Glad you posted this because Ive been having a lot of trouble with this myself. Im doing steelhead next weekend and had no clue how to pace my run. My training pace has been in the 7:50-8:00 range when I do my long runs. I do have a heart rate monitor that I use for bicycle training but never established my lactic threshold while running. How should I set my pace for the race? Should I go out at the normal 7:50 pace and see how I feel or should i just watch the heart rate and keep it in a certain zone? This is my first 70.3 so any tips will be greatly appreciated!

Kris


2008-07-24 5:18 PM
in reply to: #1557109

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8763
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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace
kanders - 2008-07-24 4:08 PM
mikericci - 2008-07-24 4:55 PM
kanders - 2008-07-24 3:47 PM

This may not be what you're looking for with this thread, in which case, tell me to buzz off! I see a lot of people have been checking this thread out and nobody's posting, so I figure I'll put myself out there.  I've recently revised my training plans for fall with a sub-2:00 half-marathon as my stretch goal, so I've got a way to go in 3 months.    I'll take free coaching advice! 

I see my problem breaking down as something like this, and I'd bet this is a fairly common phenomenon: 

1)Not enough run base (obviously).  I should be putting in at least 20-mile weeks most of the time and I didn't get there this spring.  I'm starting over now, and am trying to be more disciplined.  My overall fitness is ok, but I just wasn't doing the time.

2) Training too fast most of the time (when you have less time to devote to it, you want to squeeze those miles hard and make 'em sing.  Quite the opposite of what I probably should be doing.)

3) Resultant lack of knowledge of my true limits makes me overly conservative on race day.

Like I said, I'll bet this is pretty typical, but it may not be the exact problem you're trying to resolve, so if it's not the discussion you want to have, don't sweat it.

Are you on a plan? Do you use a HRM? Do you know your LT? That will solve 99% of your issues.

I'm using a Hal Higdon half-marathon plan, and I've recently begun using my HRM after an ill-advised experiment with using RPE (it just didn't work for me - I know it works for others).  I do know my LT, although I should probably retest (my info is a year old).

You are a triathlete, yes? Then use a plan on this site - designed for triathletes. And yes retest using the protocol on this site - then we can get you on the right path.

2008-07-24 9:08 PM
in reply to: #1557113

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace
Do a run test this week! Get your LT and then you'll have a MUCH better run next weekend. Once you determine LT, run at 15-20 beats below that - start out at 20 beats below and slowly bump it up on the run after 5 miles, then at 10 miles, you let it rip. If you can not pick up the pace throughout, you were not good at pacing the bike or the run, or both.
2008-07-24 9:23 PM
in reply to: #1556857

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace

My race pace for open 1/2M and Oly run is ~7:25.  My tempo run pace is about the same.  My long runs range in the 8:30-9:30 pace.  As I get closer to Steelhead, I'm testing my goal race pace of 8:00-8:10 in my transition runs, as well as within my long runs.  Last weekend I did 14 miles with 7 of them at my 70.3 goal run pace (8:00-8:10).

My recovery, endurance, long run pace is a pretty wide range.  Sometimes 8:20's feel easy and sometimes 9:15's are a chore.  For these runs, I don't push myself to run an exact pace and just take what the day gives.  Is there anything wrong with this type of variation? 

Edited to add:  Yes I use a HRM and have done a LT.  Unfortunately, it's been at Polar for service over the last 4 weeks!  Supposedly its en route back to me.  Fortunately, I have a pretty good feel for my running zones at this point.  I do however, really miss it on my rides.   



Edited by mbmoran2 2008-07-24 9:26 PM
2008-07-24 9:35 PM
in reply to: #1557740

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace
mbmoran2 - 2008-07-24 8:23 PM

My race pace for open 1/2M and Oly run is ~7:25.  My tempo run pace is about the same.  My long runs range in the 8:30-9:30 pace.  As I get closer to Steelhead, I'm testing my goal race pace of 8:00-8:10 in my transition runs, as well as within my long runs.  Last weekend I did 14 miles with 7 of them at my 70.3 goal run pace (8:00-8:10).

My recovery, endurance, long run pace is a pretty wide range.  Sometimes 8:20's feel easy and sometimes 9:15's are a chore.  For these runs, I don't push myself to run an exact pace and just take what the day gives.  Is there anything wrong with this type of variation? 

Edited to add:  Yes I use a HRM and have done a LT.  Unfortunately, it's been at Polar for service over the last 4 weeks!  Supposedly its en route back to me.  Fortunately, I have a pretty good feel for my running zones at this point.  I do however, really miss it on my rides.   

I think taking what the day gives you is the best thing you can do in training.

Now, if you can run 7:25 in a HM, then theoretically you should be able to run about 30 secs slower a mile for the HIM. That means below 8 pace. I think starting out 8:10 pace is great, and at 5 miles bump up the effort a little and at 10 miles, let it rip.

2008-07-25 3:19 AM
in reply to: #1556857

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace
Mike, you might want to include a link to the run test. Not everybody is patient enough to find it.

And thanks for posting this. Have usually run at 2 minutes slower than marathon pace for my long runs. Thats more like 30 beats below what I believe is my LT.

Thanks.

Cash


2008-07-25 6:15 AM
in reply to: #1556857

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace
Mike - Part of it is definitely improper training (intensity - running too fast) but I also believe many athletes miscalculate what their race pace is. In fact many don't have a clear idea of what their race pace should be for a given distance; because of that they tend to train faster of what they should and this also affects their race execution (pacing) resulting in overly optimistic racing predictions: pacing the bike too fast + starting the run too fast = slow run/walk
2008-07-25 6:53 AM
in reply to: #1558163

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace

amiine - 2008-07-25 5:15 AM Mike - Part of it is definitely improper training (intensity - running too fast) but I also believe many athletes miscalculate what their race pace is. In fact many don't have a clear idea of what their race pace should be for a given distance; because of that they tend to train faster of what they should and this also affects their race execution (pacing) resulting in overly optimistic racing predictions: pacing the bike too fast + starting the run too fast = slow run/walk

I couldn't agree more Jorge! I hope you are doing well.

2008-07-25 7:25 AM
in reply to: #1558163

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace

amiine - 2008-07-25 3:15 PM Mike - Part of it is definitely improper training (intensity - running too fast) but I also believe many athletes miscalculate what their race pace is. In fact many don't have a clear idea of what their race pace should be for a given distance; because of that they tend to train faster of what they should and this also affects their race execution (pacing) resulting in overly optimistic racing predictions: pacing the bike too fast + starting the run too fast = slow run/walk

I can vouch for this.  At the Longhorn HIM last year, I pushed hard on the bike trying to make up for some lost time from mechanical difficulties.  When I got to the run, I could barely maintain 9 min miles.  In training, I had been doing long runs under 8 min/mi.  So while my speed on the bike was 21.1mph, I lost more time on the run than I gained on the bike.

2008-07-25 9:30 AM
in reply to: #1556857

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace
I just read this post for the first time.  I did the Peak last weekend and I was somewhat disappointed with my run.  I finished just over 9-minute miles...which in training would be a Z1 run for me.  Because of the heat I did walk at the aid stations to drink but still I was expecting to run under 8-minute miles...similar to what I run on my tempo runs.  I don't necessarily think I train too fast...most of my training is Z1/Z2.  In fact, I think I would benefit from training faster so that my body knows how to tolerate the harder pace when racing.  Anyway, I felt the conditions on last Sunday took just about everyone out of their race plan (for the run).  Of course, there were some people that ran very fast!
2008-07-25 9:32 AM
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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace

Ok, so here's my issue: At my last race, I got caught in the mentality "If I couldn't do it in training, I shouldn't expect to do it on race day" (w/r/t bike pacing). But now you're saying I can. Which is right? I don't want to have realistic expectations for what pace I can push when I race, as I'd like to not COMPLETELY die on the run, but I also don't want to hold myself back.

Hook me up, Coach! What gives?



2008-07-25 9:36 AM
in reply to: #1556857

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace
You should die on the run, nothing comes after it!
2008-07-25 9:37 AM
in reply to: #1556857

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace
I was being literal
2008-07-25 9:51 AM
in reply to: #1558672

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace
smilford - 2008-07-25 10:36 AM

You should die on the run, nothing comes after it!


but what if you are doing a quadathlon? and the 4th sport is the pie eating contest. How would you pace your run? i kid...i kid...

seriously,

this is an awesome thread. I am a fairly new runner (running for ~6 months) and I average a 9min/mile, but I have done some intervals running at an 8min/mile pace. For my triathlon this weekend, what pace should I shoot for during the run to try to push it, but not so much that I end up walking?
2008-07-25 9:55 AM
in reply to: #1556857

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace

My race pace usually is about a minute faster per mile than my training paces.  I do all of my training & racing based on RPE.  I have a Garmin so I know what pace I'm at during the run, but I don't wear it while racing.  I'm just wondering if I'm holding myself back and hindering my improvement because I'm not using a HRM?? I have one, used it a few times, and honestly it took the enjoyment out of running for me.  

Can I establish training / racing paces based on RPE?  It seems to be working OK so far, but I hear people talk about going too hard on "easy days" and not hard enough on "hard days." I think I may be guilty of that.



Edited by vball03umd 2008-07-25 9:57 AM
2008-07-25 9:57 AM
in reply to: #1558653

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace
Chippy - 2008-07-25 10:32 AM

Ok, so here's my issue: At my last race, I got caught in the mentality "If I couldn't do it in training, I shouldn't expect to do it on race day" (w/r/t bike pacing). But now you're saying I can. Which is right? I don't want to have realistic expectations for what pace I can push when I race, as I'd like to not COMPLETELY die on the run, but I also don't want to hold myself back.

Hook me up, Coach! What gives?

I'm not a coach, but...

I do my recovery and long runs pretty damn slow (Z1/Z2).  As I get closer to my "A" race, I will work-in goal-race pace during transition runs and for a portion of my Long run for that very reason.



2008-07-25 10:00 AM
in reply to: #1558758

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace
vball03umd - 2008-07-25 10:55 AM

My race pace usually is about a minute faster per mile than my training paces. I do all of my training & racing based on RPE. I have a Garmin so I know what pace I'm at during the run, but I don't wear it while racing. I'm just wondering if I'm holding myself back and hindering my improvement because I'm not using a HRM?? I have one, used it a few times, and honestly it took the enjoyment out of running for me.

No you're not holding yourself back.  Enjoyment is the first step. 

Can I establish training / racing paces based on RPE? It seems to be working OK so far, but I hear people talk about going too hard on "easy days" and not hard enough on "hard days." I think I may be guilty of that.

Yes, you can.  Why do you think you're not going easy/hard enough?  Plus, what's a "hard" day? 

2008-07-25 10:03 AM
in reply to: #1558758

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace
vball03umd - 2008-07-25 9:55 AM

Can I establish training / racing paces based on RPE?  It seems to be working OK so far, but I hear people talk about going too hard on "easy days" and not hard enough on "hard days." I think I may be guilty of that.



Yes, I've always ran by RPE (ok I do everything by it). Now I believe you need to go out and blow up on a race to really know your body well. But Easy is Easy and Hard is Hard do we really need numbers telling us that? Probably not. Do they make it easier? Yea probably, especially at first since they take out the trial and error period a bit. But I think the trial and error(blowing up at 2miles on a 5k!) that you go through racing/training by RPE is what will make you a good racer.

And if you go too hard on a easy day. .you will know once you get to a hard day. Then the next week you will say to your self, OK I got to go easier today because last week I was dead the next couple of days.

Edited by smilford 2008-07-25 10:04 AM
2008-07-25 10:03 AM
in reply to: #1558118

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace

Cashmason - 2008-07-25 2:19 AM Mike, you might want to include a link to the run test. Not everybody is patient enough to find it. And thanks for posting this. Have usually run at 2 minutes slower than marathon pace for my long runs. Thats more like 30 beats below what I believe is my LT. Thanks. Cash

Great point! I'll post it here and then I'll see if I can have run save a seperate thread as a sticky.

Determining Zones and Pace

Bike and run training efforts are based on heart rate zones and perceived exertion. For swimming we will use pacing, as it is difficult to determine heart rate zones in a pool.

Determining Swimming Pace

In swimming we want to find out what our 'average pace per 100 (meter or yards)' is. In order to determine this number we can do a number of tests. The simplest test, in my opinion, is the 1,000 yard (or meter) Time Trial (TT). In the TT your goal is to swim a fairly hard effort for the entire distance. The key is to not slow down in the second half of the swim. It's best to start out at an effort that you can maintain by the end, but you must also be able to push yourself the whole way. You should finish knowing you gave it everything you had.

Swim test protocol:
300-500 yd warm up.
6-8 x 50 yds on 10 seconds rest.
1,000 yd TT.
300 easy cool down.

Example:
Johnny swims 17:45 for his 1,000 yd TT. This tells me Johnny's swim pace is 1:46 per 100/yds. His 1:46 is called his T-pace. Now that we have the T-pace of 1:46 we can create swim workouts adjusted to this pace. For example - a very hard set for Johnny might be 10x100 @T-5 seconds on 20 seconds rest. This would mean Johnny's goal is to swim the 100s at 1:41 pace. An easier set might be 10x100 @T+10 seconds on 30 seconds rest. Johnny's goal for the 100 is 1:56. Another set might be 10x100 T-pace on 10 seconds rest. This means Johnny's goal is to swim the 100 in 1:41.

As you can see there are many of variables and many workouts we can derive from that TT. It is recommended that you re-test your TT every 4-6 weeks.

 


Determining Bike Training Zones

In biking we want to know our heart rate training zones. To make this as easy as possible, we will use a standard 30 minute TT. From this TT we will be able to determine the correct training zones. I do advocate doing both an inside and outside LT tests.

Bike test protocol for inside testing:

The warm-up is 15 minutes of cycling, moving through the different gears, always keeping the cadence above 90 RPMS. Do a few short sprints to get your heart rate up and ready for the test!

You should start out in a gear that you can maintain 90 RPMS in. Make sure you remember what gear you started in.

  • The 30 minute TT begins.
  • At 10 minutes into the test, hit the 'Lap' button on your heart rate monitor, to get the average heart rate over the final 20 minutes of the test.
  • The average for the final 20 minutes is your Lactate Threshold or LT.
  • You should finish knowing you gave it everything you had.

15 minutes easy cool down.

Example:
Johnny has an average of 156 heart rate for his 30 minute bike TT. If I calculate Johnny's zones using his LT and the Training Bible zones, this is what I come up with:
Zone 1 - 102-129
Zone 2 - 130-139
Zone 3 - 140-146
Zone 4 - 147- 155
Zone 5a - 156-159
Zone 5b - 160-164
Zone 5c - 165-170

 


Determining Run Training Zones

In running we want to know our heart rate training zones as well. To make this as easy as possible, we will use a standard 30 minute TT. From this TT we will be able to determine the correct training zones. This is best if done on a flat uninterrupted path or trail.

Run test protocol:

After a 15 minute warm-up of easy running, finish with a few quick 20 seconds bursts to get your heart rate in the correct training zone.

  • The 30 minute TT begins.
  • At 10 minutes into the test, hit the 'Lap' button on your heart rate monitor, to get the average heart rate over the final 20 minutes of the test.
  • The average for the final 20 minutes is your Lactate Threshold or LT.
  • You should finish knowing you gave it everything you had.

15 minutes easy cool down.

Example:
Johnny has an average of 156 heart rate for his 30 minute run TT. If I calculate Johnny's zones using his LT and the Training Bible zones, this is what I come up with:
Zone 1 - 102-132
Zone 2 - 133-141
Zone 3 - 142-149
Zone 4 - 150- 155
Zone 5a - 156-159
Zone 5b - 160-164
Zone 5c - 165-173

Michael Ricci is a USAT certified coach. He can be reached for personal coaching at [email protected].

2008-07-25 10:15 AM
in reply to: #1558775

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Subject: RE: Race Pace vs. Training Pace
Scout7 - 2008-07-25 11:00 AM

Yes, you can.  Why do you think you're not going easy/hard enough?  Plus, what's a "hard" day? 

I'm following the Hal Higdon novice 2 plan to train for the Marine Corps Marathon (I have a goal time in mind and not trying to just finish) and it has days built in to take it easy and days to push (which I consider the hard days.)  Easy days I keep my breathing under control and the harder days I try and push the pace as much as I can.  I wonder if this is the right way to do it or whether I should establish training paces and try and stick to them.  Maybe I'm over thinking things and should just run :



Edited by vball03umd 2008-07-25 10:18 AM
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