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2008-08-03 10:00 PM

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Subject: Stupid Question on Running!
I was reading a bit on trying to improve my run. The thread said to do tempo runs to get faster! I am sorry, but I do not know what that means or how to work that in to training. Also, I read that someone stated they do most of their miles @ 9:00-9:15 pace and then race much faster around 7:00 pace. Is that correct. I would think that running 40 miles per week @ 9:00 min/mile pace will not help you build that much speed. Also, I am only doing Sprint Tri's so I train like I race. Is that wrong? I try to run hard everytime. Any insight!


2008-08-03 10:46 PM
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Subject: RE: Stupid Question on Running!
Thanks for posting and asking exactly what I was thinking/wondering.  I'll be watching this thread to see what information is put forward.  I just can't understand how someone can pace most of their runs at 9 min miles, yet perform at a 7 min mile clip during an event.  I do understand the importance of building a solid endurance base, and I also understand the impact of event day adrenalin, etc.  However, it seems that training at 9 min mile paces would just train the body to perform at that pace during an event.  I'm making some good gains but I am pushing hard 1-2 times a week to improve my speed and pace.  I add an easy and longer run a couple times per week as well...at a much slower pace.  I consider those runs as my attempt to build base.
2008-08-03 11:06 PM
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Subject: RE: Stupid Question on Running!

Congratulations, you just opened pandora's box for yourself.  There are dozens of theories and entire books on the subject, but most are just different opinions about the finer points and how much time you should be training at different paces. 

 This is one website that gives a somewhat concise treatment of the subject. 

http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/training1.htm

 Have fun!

2008-08-03 11:42 PM
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Subject: RE: Stupid Question on Running!

jansenwins - 2008-08-03 10:46 PM Thanks for posting and asking exactly what I was thinking/wondering.  I'll be watching this thread to see what information is put forward.  I just can't understand how someone can pace most of their runs at 9 min miles, yet perform at a 7 min mile clip during an event.  I do understand the importance of building a solid endurance base, and I also understand the impact of event day adrenalin, etc.  However, it seems that training at 9 min mile paces would just train the body to perform at that pace during an event.  I'm making some good gains but I am pushing hard 1-2 times a week to improve my speed and pace.  I add an easy and longer run a couple times per week as well...at a much slower pace.  I consider those runs as my attempt to build base.

There are several good threads that discuss this subject in depth. It is true that training pace is substantially slower than race pace. Last year I was just starting and running as you describe here. Every effort was hard and fast, but I wasn't getting much faster.The reasons that this isn't suggested is you are setting yourself up for overtraining or injury. You also do not train your body in the fat-burning versus glycogen burning zones.

Took the advice from here and spent substaintial time 80%+ at a slower pace, build frequency and volume up. Took 2+ min/mi off of my 5k times. You can get faster by training slowly.

I would have attached the threads, but couldn't find it. If I do, I'll edit and add it in.

Here is one from mentoring thread last year.



Edited by originalkid 2008-08-03 11:56 PM
2008-08-03 11:58 PM
in reply to: #1579234

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Subject: RE: Stupid Question on Running!
this is from one of the running articles posted by BarryP over on slowtwitch. the dude knows his stuff, if you like this or want more, check out his other posts here: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=1612485;search_string=r...


-----------------------------------------------------------------
THE ANSWER: Run slower. Run more often. Run more.

If you are rolling your eyes right now it's either because A) you get it and know you get it (and don't need to hear it yet again) or B) you don't get it and don't know you don't get it (and don't want th hear it agin)......; ^ ) However I've read a few responses on the board this year and got a few PMs from people who have had great success by adopting this training regime for their running. I'll lead off with a disclaimer and say that this may not be the answer that YOU are looking for (especially if you already are a strong runner), but it has helped a lot of struggling runners.


It seems to me that most triathletes don't come from a running background. Most runners who excell at running tend to stick with running as their are pleanty of opportunities to contiue to compete while maintaining a normal lifestyle. So it seems like a lot of folks either come to triathlon from a swimmers/cyclists background or just jumped in with both feet from no background. So, the introduction of running comes not as a single program that one can dedicate 100% of their time to, but as part of a larger program (triathlon) where the time must be shared.

That's the first issue. The second issue is coming into running with a familiarity of swimming/cycling. Physiologically the endurance sports are very similar, but I believe there is one major difference. Most people (*most*) can't get away with pounding through workouts the way they may have become accustomed to while swimming or cycling.

I've been learning this from the other side of the equation. After barely getting into shape on the bike, I jumped into my first ever "A group" ride last night. After a short warmup we started pace lining, then climbed a HUGE hill, then chased a break, recovered, and chase a break again. I hammered for well over an hour while logging in 2 1/2 hours of riding. It felt great!!

As I headed home I remember thinking, "There's no way in hell an out of shape person should ever jump into a *running* workout of that magnitude." Running just simply isn't as forgiving as swimming or cycling. If you are unprepared, pounding through hard, fast paced workouts will BEAT YOU UP. They *can* be done, but only after the proper foundations have been laid.....and that takes months (even years!).


THE SOLUTION:

Running is primarily about raising your body's ability to tolerate heavy stress. The easiest, most efficient way (arguably) is to run a lot!.....or in the case of the struggling runner, RUN MORE. The more you run, the more time your body is stimulated to improve its "endurance" and the more time your body builds a resistance to stress.

The easist way to run more is to A) SLOW DOWN and B) RUN MORE OFTEN. You don't slow down for the sake of slowing down or run more often for the sake of running more often. You do it so that you can run more. If you struggle with running and typically get 2 runs of 45min-1:30 at 85% of max heart rate (Gordo's Moderately Hard zone), instead try running 6 times at 65%-80% of max heart rate ("steady" or even "easy"). Each run can be as short as 15 minutes. Once you get used to 6 short easy runs a week, gradually build the distance of 2 or 3 of them. Start off running no more pre week than you currently do, and then add 15 minutes a week over the course of several months until you get to 3, 4, ....as much as 5 hours a week of running (admittedly this may not be a "well balanced program".....but if you struggle on the run, you may need to shift your training to be "run heavy").

For the Ney Sayers out there, correct, this is not the end all be all of run training. Intensity is needed to achieve peak fitness. Time limitations can become an issue. Many have succeeded on a "hard all the time approach." However this is targeted at the struggling runner who has never tried a high mileage, high freduency, low effort approach. 9 times out of 10 I find this to be a neccessary 1st step in building a foundation for one's career as a runner. I highly recommend giving it a try for a good 4 month block and see the results.
2008-08-04 1:09 AM
in reply to: #1579234

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Subject: RE: Stupid Question on Running!

This happened to me!  I was running a 12:00 min mile and I had no idea how anyone ran faster than that!

 I bought some book with a sprint and olympic training program, and I guess those guys knew what they were talking about.  The program had me doing a LOT of tempo work, and it was just as important to rest as it was to speed up.  At first, running at all of these different speeds was confusing, but after 8 weeks I did a sprint duathlon - 7:50 mile!  I wasn't even trying that hard, I was just running and trying to keep my turnover rate high.  I really worked on running from the mid to front of my foot rather than my heel.  I read an article in an issue of Competitor that said in order to shorten your time, you have to be able to run much longer than that.  In other words, because I could run 8 miles at a 10:00 min pace, that helped me run 4 at a 7:50 pace.  That may seem obvious, I guess, but when you're used to running at a snail's pace, it's hard to imagine running ANY faster at ANY distance.

So in all, my miracle turnaround came from lots of tempo work and continuing to increase my long runs.  The book that really helped me is pretty popular : Starting Out: Training For Your First Triathlon by Huddle and Frey.  It was by no means my first triathlon, but the training schedule in it really helped me be faster.



2008-08-04 6:00 AM
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Subject: RE: Stupid Question on Running!

The first thing my husband does with his new athletes is get them to slow down during their training runs.  He believes that training too fast/hard is the biggest and most frequent mistake that amateur runners make.  If you are not doing a tempo run/speed work/hill repeats (or any other structured training session), you should be running easy.  My guess as to why is that it means that when you do your structured sessions, you do so on fresh legs and therefore get more benefit out of those sessions.  I did a quick google of tempo run and found a Runner's World article that you might find interesting.  http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-238-267--11909-0,00.html

You will improve by doing easy runs, even without structured workouts.  But you will get even faster if you include structured work outs.  Even just doing say 6 strides during each of your easy runs will help.  I have never done a structured work out in my life (except on the bike) and took my 5 Km time from just sub 30 minutes to 23 minutes in one race season.  How?  I ran a lot of easy runs (running is not easy for me).  However, if I wanted to improve on that 23, I would have needed to start adding tempo runs and speed work into the mix or increased my volume to an impossible amount.

In a given week, I believe DH has his athletes only do 2 runs that are harder work outs.  The rest are just easy runs at a comfortable pace.  Another big advantage to including easy runs in your training is that they can prevent burn out.  If every run is at race pace, then every run is probably going to suck.  Easy runs are usually enjoyable and many athletes look forward to this little break in intensity.  Plus, you can run further!  You may only be competing in shorter races but if you train say, 1 hr at a time, that 5 km will seem so much easier at the end of your race.

Goodluck with your training. 

 

 

2008-08-04 9:21 AM
in reply to: #1579234

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Subject: RE: Stupid Question on Running!

danceswithducks - 2008-08-03 11:00 PM I was reading a bit on trying to improve my run. The thread said to do tempo runs to get faster! I am sorry, but I do not know what that means or how to work that in to training.

You don't need to worry about it, then.  There are as many definitions for "tempo run" as there are people training.  Simplest definition:  A steady run performed at a higher level of effort than an easy run.

Also, I read that someone stated they do most of their miles @ 9:00-9:15 pace and then race much faster around 7:00 pace. Is that correct. I would think that running 40 miles per week @ 9:00 min/mile pace will not help you build that much speed. Also, I am only doing Sprint Tri's so I train like I race. Is that wrong? I try to run hard everytime. Any insight!

That sounds about right.

You can't race every day.  If you could, that'd be an impressive feat.

Running hard every time takes it out of you.  You got two knobs: Intensity and Mileage.  You can't raise both at the same time.

You wanna get faster?  Run more.  You wanna run more?  Run slower now.

You will get to a point where you will have to run faster.  You're not there yet. 

2008-08-04 10:48 AM
in reply to: #1579317

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Subject: RE: Stupid Question on Running!

newbz - 2008-08-03 10:58 PM THE SOLUTION: Running is primarily about raising your body's ability to tolerate heavy stress. The easiest, most efficient way (arguably) is to run a lot!.....or in the case of the struggling runner, RUN MORE. The more you run, the more time your body is stimulated to improve its "endurance" and the more time your body builds a resistance to stress. The easist way to run more is to A) SLOW DOWN and B) RUN MORE OFTEN. You don't slow down for the sake of slowing down or run more often for the sake of running more often. You do it so that you can run more. If you struggle with running and typically get 2 runs of 45min-1:30 at 85% of max heart rate (Gordo's Moderately Hard zone), instead try running 6 times at 65%-80% of max heart rate ("steady" or even "easy". Each run can be as short as 15 minutes. Once you get used to 6 short easy runs a week, gradually build the distance of 2 or 3 of them. Start off running no more pre week than you currently do, and then add 15 minutes a week over the course of several months until you get to 3, 4, ....as much as 5 hours a week of running (admittedly this may not be a "well balanced program".....but if you struggle on the run, you may need to shift your training to be "run heavy". For the Ney Sayers out there, correct, this is not the end all be all of run training. Intensity is needed to achieve peak fitness. Time limitations can become an issue. Many have succeeded on a "hard all the time approach." However this is targeted at the struggling runner who has never tried a high mileage, high freduency, low effort approach. 9 times out of 10 I find this to be a neccessary 1st step in building a foundation for one's career as a runner. I highly recommend giving it a try for a good 4 month block and see the results.

X2!

I've done the run long and slow to get fast training and it works! ALL my training runs are done at a slow pace. However, I do a race of some sort every other week for my speedwork. I find that racing forces me to push myself much harder than I would if I was training on my own. Exceptfor the longer races - half marathon and up - I don't pace myself. I go all out from the start, then back off slightly so I'm racing at about 95% or so. If I blow up, then I blow up.

For me, every time my weekly mileage gets into the 45-50 range, my overall speed improves. Starting last October I ramped up to 45-50 as a minimum and by February/March I was doing 70+. The results of all the slow training runs and the biweekly racing has been 13 PRs so far this year and course bests at almost every race I've done, plus a long awaited BQ marathon.

When I started as a runner this approach didn't make any sense to me either. Having done it and basking in the results has made me a believer.

2008-08-04 11:24 AM
in reply to: #1579234

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Subject: RE: Stupid Question on Running!
I have heard so many ways of getting faster. There is a pretty famous runner named Ed Whitlock in Toronto Canada who just logs lots, I mean lots, of long slow miles (2hrs+ a day), in the 9-9:30 range he says. He never does speed work, he just races every weekend or every other one. He was running 2:50 marathons in his 70's and 10K's in the 37-38 range. That is one way and I know a number who do this. (with fewer miles of course but race as a substitute for speed workouts).

It is a bit different as a triathlete, unless you really focus on the run and drop some of the other stuff there is not a lot of room for the easy pace runs. The sites these guys have provided are excellent. I would focus on the readings dealing with triathletes moreso than straight running sites/books. As a triathlete you will get a lot of the same benefit from the other sports as you will the added miles. Almost all running specific programs have three primary workouts, one long run, one Tempo run (what you could run for an hour in a race), and one VO2max (what you could run all out for 12-15 minutes or 5K pace if you like). The amount/balance of each depends on you and the distance you want to be good at. From there you fill in between with easy runs as time permits. The main thing is you need to run at variable paces, but you do need consistency in your running and a reasonable mileage volume. As pointed out before, when you build mileage run slow and build mileage. When you bring the faster stuff in, do it after your body has adjusted to the increased mileage load.

If you take the race regularly route, which does work, learn to race through them and not taper. Every now and then rest up and make em A races to see where you are.
2008-08-04 1:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Stupid Question on Running!

rc63413 - 2008-08-04 12:24 PM

He never does speed work, he just except for races every weekend or every other one.

Fixed that for you. 



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