General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Another "I hate Flip Turns" Thread Rss Feed  
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2008-08-12 1:42 PM

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Subject: Another "I hate Flip Turns" Thread

Hello,

I just want to share my experience with you guys.  Any recommendation will be appreciated.

I'm a MOP Swimmer (1:50 per 100 Pool / 32m per 1,500 race).  I've been swimming alone for the past year and a half at lunch 3x per week. 

2 Weeks ago I returned to a swim/triathletes group, looking to improve my swim.  The top swimmer of the group told me yesterday, "you really need learn to flip"...arggg...  I've always hated flips turn (because I can't do it).

So today a went back to my previous pool, at lunch.  After I finish my workout, I stated to practice the fu..ing flips.     I'M A MESS!!!  After 5 flips I was out of air.  I did like 25 flips total and leave the pool.

I don't know how in the world flipping will help me be a better swimmer. 

Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks,

 

 

Carlos

 

(sorry for any spelling or grammar error)



2008-08-12 1:46 PM
in reply to: #1597804

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Cycling Guru
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Subject: RE: Another "I hate Flip Turns" Thread

Continuity is the main thing really.  Instead of hitting the wall with an open turn and having to stop/start you can be more fluid and keep moving.  Plus it "is" faster ......

With that said, I never do them.  Not because I don't know how to, but because I only did them the one season I did any sort of swim team work and that was way back in Winter of '91.  I just never took the time to practice doing them again.

However, now that I am regularly swimming in the 1:3X's to 1:4X's for my 100's I am hitting the wall a lot quicker and lose momentum so I might actually start doing them again soon.  As I get faster I can see the benefit of them more and more in training.



Edited by Daremo 2008-08-12 1:47 PM
2008-08-12 1:47 PM
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Subject: RE: Another "I hate Flip Turns" Thread
If you don't like them, don't do them. Do any of your races have pool swims? Even if they do, pool swims are not that long and you probably won't get a huge advantage doing flips (correctly). I swim a little faster than you and don't do flips. Folks who are swimmers (rather than triathletes) will also tell you that you should practice your other strokes. What the heck for? I don't believe that doing flip turns will make you a better swimmer. Better swim form and more time in the pool will probably make you a better swimmer IMHO.  There are some arguments that flips can add some small advantage for triathletes but I am not convinced that the advantages are large enough to warrant the amount of time needed to master flips.  I have been trying to do flips for several years now (with the aid of a coach from time to time) and it is just a waste of my swim time at this point.  I can do them, but just barely.


Edited by Malgal 2008-08-12 1:49 PM
2008-08-12 1:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Another "I hate Flip Turns" Thread
Simple response to the comment by the "top swimmer": "Why?"

Flip turns are faster, sure, but I (personally) never do pool-based triathlons, so what's the point of trying to learn them?

The typical response will be something about teaching your body to do without oxygen or some such. The first time I see evidence that shows that stopping breathing during the middle of a running or cycling set results in increased performance, I might consider holding my breath during swimming. Until then, I'll breathe as often as my body needs it without trying to force it to do without.
2008-08-12 1:55 PM
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Coach
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Subject: RE: Another "I hate Flip Turns" Thread

just  SUAT and do it, you WILL become better swimmer trust me... or if you want more specific reasons I posted the following back in 04-08

I think flip turns make a swimmer a better one even for OWS. Keep in mind we are not trying to gain maximum speed from it, just to keep the swim session continuous.

Benefits:
1. Lets you keep up with a faster lane during swim practice (if you do master swim).
2. Good way to get in some core work into your swim session. 
3. It is a bit easier on the back and shoulders than open turns.
4. You DO get extra rest with open turns and the extra second you get per 25 or 50 adds up to considerable amount of 'cheating rest' when you're doing 300s or longer. Flip turns force you to swim continuously.
5. The extra second you might gain with flip turns tends to even out with the fact that you stop continuous swimming to change directions in the pool (as long as you are not indeed cheating and doing Ian Thorrpe like flip turns ).

Don't forget everyone should also practice lots of OWS because it involves developing other set of skills to be able to swim as fast (like swimming straight), trust me I know!

2008-08-12 1:56 PM
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Subject: RE: Another "I hate Flip Turns" Thread

dgunthert - 2008-08-12 2:52 PM Simple response to the comment by the "top swimmer": "Why?" Flip turns are faster, sure, but I (personally) never do pool-based triathlons, so what's the point of trying to learn them? The typical response will be something about teaching your body to do without oxygen or some such. The first time I see evidence that shows that stopping breathing during the middle of a running or cycling set results in increased performance, I might consider holding my breath during swimming. Until then, I'll breathe as often as my body needs it without trying to force it to do without.

Actually, typical response is not breathing when I talk with people now, it is fluidity and continuity of movement, which IS more like open water swimming than starting/stopping at the wall.

As I said before, I am not a big proponent of them, but I am starting to see where the advantage would be.  In the pool swimming next to someone who is a similar pace to me I will do fast open turns and they will do flip turns and will be ahead of me on the next length ....... simple fact.



2008-08-12 1:58 PM
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Champion
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Subject: RE: Another "I hate Flip Turns" Thread

I don't think that a triathlete needs to learn to flip turn in order to be a solid swimmer; good open turns will be more than sufficient in order to swim at most swim practices and improve your times.

However, I think that anyone who is serious about swimming should invest the time to learn how to flip turn (and swim all four strokes) as there are many benefits, including balance and comfort in the water, streamlining and maintain breathing patterns to name a few.

In order to learn flip turns, I would try the following:

1)  Stand in the shallow end and jump and roll forward, finishing standing on the bottom with your hands above your head (streamline)
2)  Away from the wall, swim slowly forward (5-10m), roll and finish on your back (streamlined)
3)  Swim slowly towards the wall, swim slowly forward (5-10m), roll and push off the wall on your back (streamlined) gliding
4)  Same as three but include 2-3 strokes of back stroke off the wall
5)  Same as 3 but as you push off, rotate onto your front and glide (streamlined)
6)  Same as 5 but as you break the water, include 2-3 strokes of front crawl
7)  Same as 5 but before breaking the water, a dolphin kick or two and then a few strokes of front crawl

If you can build through these over a few weeks, you should be able to master the flip turn and use it as part of your swim skill set.

Shane

2008-08-12 2:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Another "I hate Flip Turns" Thread

Thanks guys.

It was more like an advice, because we were doing some speed workouts.

I understand the benefits from it and also think like a lot of you guys that I don't "really" need do it, because after all in tris there's no walls to flip.  

I'm commited to learn   after each session I'll practice it until I feel comfortable to do it in the workout.

I'll keep you updated.

 

Carlos

2008-08-12 2:34 PM
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Champion
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Subject: RE: Another "I hate Flip Turns" Thread
I do flip turns when I do my workouts... but only because I was a competitive swimmer and they are second nature to me. If I had to learn how to do them now and I wasn't swimming 5 days a week, 2 hours a day... there is no way in heck I'd bother learning how to do them for tri's.

Even though I can do flip turns, in pool swims I won't do flip turns. They always want us to go to the right under the lane ropes. I am programed to flip and go to the left. I don't know how to do to the right. Not to mention, there are so many people hanging on the wall, I can't go in and plant my feet where I want to.

Moral of the story: Don't do flip turns. If you want to be faster, work on your stroke and form.
2008-08-12 2:42 PM
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Subject: RE: Another "I hate Flip Turns" Thread

If you're doing a group workout in the pool, flips are pretty much mandatory to maintain continuity of the group. You can turn closer to each other and not get in each other's way, you can actually pass IN a turn (one pushes off low while the other comes in high). If you're doing an open turn you take up MASSES of real estate at the end of the pool.

Okay, you say, I'll just do flips when I'm doing group workouts.

Sorry boss. Won't work. That's like saying you'll ride aero just on race day. You have to be GOOD at them. They have to be second nature, so you know exactly how what you do will affect how you go into and come out of that turn, and how to interact with people going into and out of the turn. So just learn them and do them. Then when you get back to the group workout you won't be the disruptive factor.

2008-08-12 2:44 PM
in reply to: #1598016

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Subject: RE: Another "I hate Flip Turns" Thread

KSH - 2008-08-12 3:34 PM

They always want us to go to the right under the lane ropes. I am programed to flip and go to the left. I don't know how to do to the right. 

 

You can't turn right?  You aren't an ambiturner?



2008-08-12 2:51 PM
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Subject: RE: Another "I hate Flip Turns" Thread

i gotta say, i'm glad that i bothered to learn other strokes when i learned to swim.  ideally yes, i'd do freestyle the whole tri.  but in my last tri when i was having trouble breathing for whatever reason, being able to flip to backstroke was a nice solution.  if i hadn't had that in my pocket, i most likely would have had to quit the race.  granted, my goal is to not have to resort to a different stroke.  in practice before that race i NEVER had a problem swimming freestyle for more than 2x that race distance but for whatever reason, it wasn't happening and i was really happy to have a different stroke in my back pocket.

as far as flip turns, no opinion.  i'd love to learn them b/c i think it would be better for me to do that than stop at the end and do an open turn to keep a rhythm.  but at this point, it's not a priority. 

2008-08-12 3:34 PM
in reply to: #1597863

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Subject: RE: Another "I hate Flip Turns" Thread
I think I have responded to this before, but will again just for kicks.

amiine - 2008-08-12 1:55 PM

Benefits:
1. Lets you keep up with a faster lane during swim practice (if you do master swim). This is the only instance I can think of that would be a cause/effect of flip turns make you a better swimmer. But it's not the actual flip turn, it's the motivation to keep up with a group faster than you - which can happen with or without flipping.

2. Good way to get in some core work into your swim session. Minimal at best, and not enough justification to spend hours mastering the flip turn. 

3. It is a bit easier on the back and shoulders than open turns. See #3 above


4. You DO get extra rest with open turns and the extra second you get per 25 or 50 adds up to considerable amount of 'cheating rest' when you're doing 300s or longer. Flip turns force you to swim continuously. I see popping up in the water every 25 meters equal to sighting. Same discontinuation of stroke, same extra breath.


Flip turns make you a better flip turner.
Swimming makes you a better swimmer.
IMO.



2008-08-12 3:37 PM
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Subject: RE: Another "I hate Flip Turns" Thread
I do open turns. Not a real huge loss in my training, I don't think, esp. since I have no real issues in open water as far as swimming continuously goes. I know how to do flip-turns, I just haven't done them in about 15 years. Maybe I'll learn them over the winter, as I did do two pool swims this year, though to be honest, I would probably have to have done an open turn anyway in a few instances b/c there was another person in the way at the end of the lane.
2008-08-12 3:51 PM
in reply to: #1598048

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Subject: RE: Another "I hate Flip Turns" Thread
briderdt - 2008-08-12 12:42 PM

If you're doing a group workout in the pool, flips are pretty much mandatory to maintain continuity of the group.

To maintain the continuity of the group - whatever that means. They are not however, mandatory to participate in a group practice. Only about 25% of the athletes in my group training swims do flip turns.

2008-08-12 3:55 PM
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Subject: RE: Another "I hate Flip Turns" Thread

you don't "have" to learn to flip turn.   I agree with Jorge that you should, it will make you a better swimmer.  You maintain your cadence and rhythm better with flip turns.  IMO.  I suppose those that don't do them cant really say whether they'd make you a better swimmer.... not doing them and all, not sure how they would know.  But everyone has their opinion.

But judging it all based on your first time doesn't make much sense.  No one here, no matter when they learned how, nailed them on the first time.  It takes time, be patient.



Edited by ChrisM 2008-08-12 3:58 PM


2008-08-12 4:18 PM
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Subject: RE: Another "I hate Flip Turns" Thread

Ultimately people can train any way they prefer. Triathlon swim times for most local races are so below average than any slow swim time (1:40 min/100yds or slower) will place you MOP or even FOP in some instances. For that reason I can understand why many think swim training isn’t all that important, just doing ‘enough’ should suffice to get it out of the way before the bike/run.

Anyway, whether flip turns might improve an athlete’s swimming ability or not is besides the point, but IMO there are two reasons why triathletes in general are very bad swimmers: 1) they don’t swim enough and 2) they don't train like a swimmer. (not in terms of volume of course although the total volume usually is much more than most tri-geeks think)

2008-08-12 6:32 PM
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Subject: RE: Another "I hate Flip Turns" Thread
Don't do them. I personally think they pad your swim and won't do you any favors for the open water swim. They are afterall, if you know how to do them, technically a rest.  That said, I do them only because that is how I was trained to swim as child because I swam swim team for 8 years and swam competitively in a pool. They do help find a rhythm and pace but other than that they don't offer a whole lot --IMO.
2008-08-12 8:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Another "I hate Flip Turns" Thread

Watching someone do a long swim with flip turns at each end just looks bada$$. 

2008-08-12 8:07 PM
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Elite
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Subject: RE: Another "I hate Flip Turns" Thread
meherczeg - 2008-08-12 3:44 PM

KSH - 2008-08-12 3:34 PM

They always want us to go to the right under the lane ropes. I am programed to flip and go to the left. I don't know how to do to the right. 

 

You can't turn right?  You aren't an ambiturner?




She would be great in Nascar.
2008-08-12 8:36 PM
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Subject: RE: Another "I hate Flip Turns" Thread
charlie - 2008-08-12 3:24 PM

I'm commited to learn   after each session I'll practice it until I feel comfortable to do it in the workout.

Carlos

There ya go! Great attitude. Learn the flips - they really are not difficult and once you 'get it', you'll wonder why you ever found it hard.



2008-08-12 10:35 PM
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Subject: RE: Another "I hate Flip Turns" Thread
coachese - 2008-08-12 1:51 PM

To maintain the continuity of the group - whatever that means.

It means you don't stack it up with the other swimmers when you hit the end of the pool because you're spending twice as much time against the wall.

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