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2008-08-13 12:25 PM

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Sensei
Sin City
Subject: To go Compact or Not...

The bike I'm planning to get now comes stock with a FSA compact carbon crank.  At first I was thinking I wanted to swap out for a "standard" crank.  But since my races and training are on some pretty hilly terrain, I may keep it (especially with Silverman approaching).  I seem to always be looking for another gear on the steeper stuff.

I do worry about the top end speed losses though.  I have a slower cadence as well (high 80's) and tend to power up a hill rather than spin up it (working on that)

Percentage wise, the time I need the smaller gears is much higher than the big gears - so maybe that answers the question.  But boy, I love pushing a big gear when I have the chance, and losing that bothers me a little.

Comments/thoughts?



2008-08-13 12:33 PM
in reply to: #1600588

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Not a Coach
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Media, PA
Subject: RE: To go Compact or Not...
Aikidoman - 2008-08-13 1:25 PM

The bike I'm planning to get now comes stock with a FSA compact carbon crank.  At first I was thinking I wanted to swap out for a "standard" crank.  But since my races and training are on some pretty hilly terrain, I may keep it (especially with Silverman approaching).  I seem to always be looking for another gear on the steeper stuff.

I do worry about the top end speed losses though.  I have a slower cadence as well (high 80's) and tend to power up a hill rather than spin up it (working on that)

Percentage wise, the time I need the smaller gears is much higher than the big gears - so maybe that answers the question.  But boy, I love pushing a big gear when I have the chance, and losing that bothers me a little.

Comments/thoughts?

Look at how much you'll "lose".  I really doubt it's as much as you think.

And high-80s isn't low cadence.

2008-08-13 12:35 PM
in reply to: #1600588

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Elite
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New City, New York
Subject: RE: To go Compact or Not...

I'm a fan of the compact. I even switched the cassette from an 11/23 to a 12/25. Rare that I spin out.

I think the "standard" on tri-bikes assumes a certain level of expertise on the bike. I certainly am not there.

I believe what I gave up on the bike (if anything) I more than made up for by saving my legs for the run. This is A MAJOR factor often overlooked when considering compacts IMO.



Edited by rollinbones 2008-08-13 12:38 PM
2008-08-13 12:36 PM
in reply to: #1600588

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Master
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Atlanta, Ga
Subject: RE: To go Compact or Not...
Like you said, you answered your own question. I like to push a big gear too. Right now I ride a standard 53 / 39 front with an 11/23 rear, in Atlanta, and it's nothing but hills here. If you like to push the big gears, it will take some time and lots of frustration to get used to more spinning. Top end speed losses were the first thing I noticed when I went to a 12/25 on my old bike. Drove me crazy.
2008-08-13 12:39 PM
in reply to: #1600610

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Sensei
Sin City
Subject: RE: To go Compact or Not...
JohnnyKay - 2008-08-13 10:33 AM
Aikidoman - 2008-08-13 1:25 PM

The bike I'm planning to get now comes stock with a FSA compact carbon crank.  At first I was thinking I wanted to swap out for a "standard" crank.  But since my races and training are on some pretty hilly terrain, I may keep it (especially with Silverman approaching).  I seem to always be looking for another gear on the steeper stuff.

I do worry about the top end speed losses though.  I have a slower cadence as well (high 80's) and tend to power up a hill rather than spin up it (working on that)

Percentage wise, the time I need the smaller gears is much higher than the big gears - so maybe that answers the question.  But boy, I love pushing a big gear when I have the chance, and losing that bothers me a little.

Comments/thoughts?

Look at how much you'll "lose".  I really doubt it's as much as you think.

And high-80s isn't low cadence.

I think you are right - need to check a gear calc.  I know 80's is not traditionally "low" - My mind get convoluded with all the hype over uber high cadence for tri (90's).

2008-08-13 12:41 PM
in reply to: #1600619

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Sensei
Sin City
Subject: RE: To go Compact or Not...
rollinbones - 2008-08-13 10:35 AM

I'm a fan of the compact. I even switched the cassette from an 11/23 to a 12/25. Rare that I spin out.

I think the "standard" on tri-bikes assumes a certain level of expertise on the bike. I certainly am not there.

I believe what I gave up on the bike (if anything) I more than made up for by saving my legs for the run. This is A MAJOR factor often overlooked when considering compacts IMO.

Bingo - that's what I'm thinking.  During my training rides when I grind up hills and feel the legs working so hard, I'm thinking "this can't be good for the run"...



2008-08-13 12:44 PM
in reply to: #1600588

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Champion
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Subject: RE: To go Compact or Not...
The biggest downfall is switching rings. You need two rear clicks to get to the gear you want. Let's say you're rifing 50/17 and approaching a climb. You'll need to go to 16 then 15 then switch rings to the 34 to approximate the gear you started in. Then climb up the cassette as the incline steepens. It seems more natural with 53/39 where you can change rings only. But, the 50/34 and 12/25 is perfect for almost every terrain. I don't "spin out" the 50-12 either.

Tradeoffs.

After that non-comittal answer, get the compact.

Edited by pitt83 2008-08-13 12:45 PM
2008-08-13 12:51 PM
in reply to: #1600588

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Coach
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Subject: RE: To go Compact or Not...
In terms of the cranks I would say choose whatever you feel most comfortable with, in terms of saving the legs for the run via high rpms or the ability to spin up the legs is a funtion of fitness level and racing intensity (pacing) and not your ability to ride at 'x' rpms. just as FYI...
2008-08-13 1:05 PM
in reply to: #1600677

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Sensei
Sin City
Subject: RE: To go Compact or Not...

amiine - 2008-08-13 10:51 AM In terms of the cranks I would say choose whatever you feel most comfortable with, in terms of saving the legs for the run via high rpms or the ability to spin up the legs is a funtion of fitness level and racing intensity (pacing) and not your ability to ride at 'x' rpms. just as FYI...

Thanks Jorge.  I didn't mean to imply I have to hit a certain RPM...  I never care about cadence.  It's just a number that the Garmin gives me at the end of a ride.  I seem to naturally average 85 or so when I check.

I just know when I'm climbing some of my steep stuff, it probably drops to 50-60 as I run out of gears.  That does not feel very good!

2008-08-13 2:28 PM
in reply to: #1600677

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Elite
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New City, New York
Subject: RE: To go Compact or Not...

Yes, but it may take years to reach a fitness level that enables one to ride a standard AND run a marathon after biking 112 miles. In the meantime, compacts may very well aid in saving his legs for the run. 

amiine - 2008-08-13 1:51 PM In terms of the cranks I would say choose whatever you feel most comfortable with, in terms of saving the legs for the run via high rpms or the ability to spin up the legs is a funtion of fitness level and racing intensity (pacing) and not your ability to ride at 'x' rpms. just as FYI...

2008-08-13 6:26 PM
in reply to: #1600588

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Expert
606
500100
Lakeville, MN
Subject: RE: To go Compact or Not...
If you want to still goose it on the descents, perhaps you could swap out the cassette to a 11-23 (not sure what you have now). You would still maintain roughly the same top end speed as a 53/12-25 combo, and get a wee boost on the hills.


2008-08-13 6:27 PM
in reply to: #1601889

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Sensei
Sin City
Subject: RE: To go Compact or Not...

cooutdoors - 2008-08-13 4:26 PM If you want to still goose it on the descents, perhaps you could swap out the cassette to a 11-23 (not sure what you have now). You would still maintain roughly the same top end speed as a 53/12-25 combo, and get a wee boost on the hills.

Me likes the idea....

2008-08-13 8:07 PM
in reply to: #1601068

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Coach
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Subject: RE: To go Compact or Not...
rollinbones - 2008-08-13 2:28 PM

Yes, but it may take years to reach a fitness level that enables one to ride a standard AND run a marathon after biking 112 miles. In the meantime, compacts may very well aid in saving his legs for the run. 

amiine - 2008-08-13 1:51 PM In terms of the cranks I would say choose whatever you feel most comfortable with, in terms of saving the legs for the run via high rpms or the ability to spin up the legs is a funtion of fitness level and racing intensity (pacing) and not your ability to ride at 'x' rpms. just as FYI...

according to who? Plus as I said rpms has little to do with an athlete to be able to succesfully run a marathon after 112 miles, it is about fitness and intensity. Anyway even if I would agree with your statement (which I don't) then an athlete could accomplish the same by just having better gear selection which it would is easier and cheaper. You can ride a compact due to preference, to save the legs, not so much...
2008-08-14 6:37 AM
in reply to: #1601068

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Cycling Guru
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Fulton, MD
Subject: RE: To go Compact or Not...
rollinbones - 2008-08-13 3:28 PM

Yes, but it may take years to reach a fitness level that enables one to ride a standard AND run a marathon after biking 112 miles. In the meantime, compacts may very well aid in saving his legs for the run. 

amiine - 2008-08-13 1:51 PM In terms of the cranks I would say choose whatever you feel most comfortable with, in terms of saving the legs for the run via high rpms or the ability to spin up the legs is a funtion of fitness level and racing intensity (pacing) and not your ability to ride at 'x' rpms. just as FYI...

Yes, but only by going slower on the bike which if you have lower gearing allows you to do that ......... having the compact doesn't change your riding style, doesn't change your cadence, doesn't change your pacing.  It simply moves your gear range around some.  That's it.

2008-08-14 8:07 AM
in reply to: #1602470

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Elite
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New City, New York
Subject: RE: To go Compact or Not...

Daremo - 2008-08-14 7:37 AMYes, but only by going slower on the bike which if you have lower gearing allows you to do that ......... having the compact doesn't change your riding style, doesn't change your cadence, doesn't change your pacing. It simply moves your gear range around some. That's it.

Disagree and I only go by my personal experience:

Harriman 2007 HIM bike split - 3:58, 14.58 mph run split - 2:19

Harriman 2008 HIM bike split - 3:27, 16.49 mph run split - 1:55

Weather and conditioning were a factor  but by far the biggest contributor to my better splits was swtiching to a compact. This was not oly proven in my race performances but in my frequent training sessions in Harriman year to year.

 

 

 

 

 

 



Edited by rollinbones 2008-08-14 8:08 AM
2008-08-14 8:12 AM
in reply to: #1600588

Extreme Veteran
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Subject: RE: To go Compact or Not...

I have been toying with the same stuff in my head. If someone made a triple that shifted crisply across the front chainrings I would run a triple. I am going to go the route of a compact double and the SRAM 10 speed (11 - 28) rear cassette that gives plenty of low range (34 / 28) and still give you a decent top end 50 / 11. I currently run a triple and I use it, the big issue for me is keeping the front in tune so it doesn't drop the chain when you need it.

chevy57   

 



2008-08-14 8:20 AM
in reply to: #1602647

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Subject: RE: To go Compact or Not...
rollinbones - 2008-08-14 8:07 AM

Daremo - 2008-08-14 7:37 AMYes, but only by going slower on the bike which if you have lower gearing allows you to do that ......... having the compact doesn't change your riding style, doesn't change your cadence, doesn't change your pacing. It simply moves your gear range around some. That's it.

Disagree and I only go by my personal experience:

Harriman 2007 HIM bike split - 3:58, 14.58 mph run split - 2:19

Harriman 2008 HIM bike split - 3:27, 16.49 mph run split - 1:55

Weather and conditioning were a factor  but by far the biggest contributor to my better splits was swtiching to a compact. This was not oly proven in my race performances but in my frequent training sessions in Harriman year to year.

I always love it when people show improvement from an additional year of training and credit their equipment.

2008-08-14 8:20 AM
in reply to: #1602066

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Champion
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Fountain Hills, AZ
Subject: RE: To go Compact or Not...
amiine - 2008-08-13 8:07 PM

rollinbones - 2008-08-13 2:28 PM

Yes, but it may take years to reach a fitness level that enables one to ride a standard AND run a marathon after biking 112 miles. In the meantime, compacts may very well aid in saving his legs for the run. 

amiine - 2008-08-13 1:51 PM In terms of the cranks I would say choose whatever you feel most comfortable with, in terms of saving the legs for the run via high rpms or the ability to spin up the legs is a funtion of fitness level and racing intensity (pacing) and not your ability to ride at 'x' rpms. just as FYI...

according to who? Plus as I said rpms has little to do with an athlete to be able to succesfully run a marathon after 112 miles, it is about fitness and intensity. Anyway even if I would agree with your statement (which I don't) then an athlete could accomplish the same by just having better gear selection which it would is easier and cheaper. You can ride a compact due to preference, to save the legs, not so much...


x2 and there is an awesome thread on SlowTwitch arguing the whole high cadence, leg saving mythos. Brett Sutton thinks high cadence riding is BS for triathletes and he advocates a "whatever works best for you" plan which includes low cadence gear mashing for his athletes. I'm one of those guys.
2008-08-14 8:21 AM
in reply to: #1602066

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Elite
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New City, New York
Subject: RE: To go Compact or Not...
amiine - 2008-08-13 9:07 PM
rollinbones - 2008-08-13 2:28 PM

Yes, but it may take years to reach a fitness level that enables one to ride a standard AND run a marathon after biking 112 miles. In the meantime, compacts may very well aid in saving his legs for the run.

 

  Anyway even if I would agree with your statement (which I don't)

what exactly don't you agree with? I said it MAY take years.  To disagree means you are inferring that it won't take some people years to reach that fitness level.  So then EVREYBODY has the ability to ride a standard crank and run a marathon afterwards. No wonder IM's are so hard to get into. Thanks for clearing that up.

2008-08-14 8:23 AM
in reply to: #1602683

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Elite
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New City, New York
Subject: RE: To go Compact or Not...
the bear - 2008-08-14 9:20 AM
rollinbones - 2008-08-14 8:07 AM

Daremo - 2008-08-14 7:37 AMYes, but only by going slower on the bike which if you have lower gearing allows you to do that ......... having the compact doesn't change your riding style, doesn't change your cadence, doesn't change your pacing. It simply moves your gear range around some. That's it.

Disagree and I only go by my personal experience:

Harriman 2007 HIM bike split - 3:58, 14.58 mph run split - 2:19

Harriman 2008 HIM bike split - 3:27, 16.49 mph run split - 1:55

Weather and conditioning were a factor but by far the biggest contributor to my better splits was swtiching to a compact. This was not oly proven in my race performances but in my frequent training sessions in Harriman year to year.

I always love it when people show improvement from an additional year of training and credit their equipment.

 

Read again 

2008-08-14 8:32 AM
in reply to: #1600588

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Champion
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Fountain Hills, AZ
Subject: RE: To go Compact or Not...
I am curious how you can qualify the BIGGEST factor beoing the compact cranks. How do you come to that conclusion?


2008-08-14 8:36 AM
in reply to: #1600588

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Cycling Guru
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Subject: RE: To go Compact or Not...

Exactly, other than moving your gear ranges around, how did changing to a compact crank modify ANYTHING in your performance and abilities???

Your improvement could have come from training, it could have come from conditions, it could have come from pacing.  There is no correlation between choice of gearing and the time you achieved.  Absolutely none.

2008-08-14 8:38 AM
in reply to: #1601068

Pro
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Andover
Subject: RE: To go Compact or Not...
Wondering... What did people do before compact cranks???

rollinbones - 2008-08-13 3:28 PM

Yes, but it may take years to reach a fitness level that enables one to ride a standard AND run a marathon after biking 112 miles. In the meantime, compacts may very well aid in saving his legs for the run. 

amiine - 2008-08-13 1:51 PM In terms of the cranks I would say choose whatever you feel most comfortable with, in terms of saving the legs for the run via high rpms or the ability to spin up the legs is a funtion of fitness level and racing intensity (pacing) and not your ability to ride at 'x' rpms. just as FYI...

2008-08-14 8:50 AM
in reply to: #1602730

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Elite
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New City, New York
Subject: RE: To go Compact or Not...

bryancd - 2008-08-14 9:32 AM I am curious how you can qualify the BIGGEST factor beoing the compact cranks. How do you come to that conclusion?

I've compared my training times in Harriman (exact same route) in 2007 and 2008, both stand alone rides and bricks. Again there were other contributors and I'm only a sample of one but I know what has worked for me. I ride ths same terrain often and I can feel the difference btween the compact and the satndard.

 



Edited by rollinbones 2008-08-14 8:52 AM




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2008-08-14 8:54 AM
in reply to: #1600588

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Expert
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Zürich, Switzerland
Subject: RE: To go Compact or Not...

Last week I spoke with a tri team mate who qualifies to Kona every year since about 5 years and he has a compact and he would never change it!

He told me that 90% of the people who has a 53/39 is not able to use it. It is made for pro and not for amateur. For him "not able to" means that you use the gear below 85rpm.

He told me "try to go 53-11" at 90rpm and see how long you can keep it...

Just reporting and I am thinking about that now...

Probably changing to compact next season with a 12-27 and then I can approach all kind of courses. 

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