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2008-11-14 11:14 PM

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Subject: Whale Wars: Big Dumb Ever?

So I caught part of an episode. So there is this boat, the "Steve Irwin" the captain/owner is one of the founders of Greenpeace who left because they were not radical/violent enough for him. During the opening they straight up say that the captain would die for the whales and expects his crew to do the same.

They get two guys to board a Japanese research/whaling vessel (all depends on who you ask), they are celebrating, acting a fool, and try to give some letter to the people on the boat they boarded. Instead the Japanese 'take them prisoner.'

The whale people then start telling the Japanese that they are illegally holding people against their will and violating the law of Australia. Mind you this is in the middle of the ocean, and in international waters. Then the whale people drop some rope around the front of the research/whaling boat to try and disable it.

So you are in the middle of the ocean, people board your ship and then try to disable your boat, and you are in the wrong?

 

A bit more about me: I will burn every tree on this planet to keep myself warm and kill every single animal to feed myself if it means keeping me alive. However since I do not need to do either I choose not to, and am for conservation as long as human needs and most wants are covered. Everything else comes later.



2008-11-15 12:03 AM
in reply to: #1809813

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Subject: RE: Whale Wars: Big Dumb Ever?
I'm popping some popcorn and waiting on Jim..........
2008-11-15 12:06 AM
in reply to: #1809813

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Subject: RE: Whale Wars: Big Dumb Ever?
I watched the same episode and they said there's an international moratorium on whale hunting, therefore the Japanese were in the wrong. Now, I'm no maritime lawyer, so I don't know the rules on boarding someone else's ship, so both groups could have been violating laws.
2008-11-15 5:25 AM
in reply to: #1809830

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Subject: RE: Whale Wars: Big Dumb Ever?

Bripod - 2008-11-15 1:06 AM ... Now, I'm no maritime lawyer, so I don't know the rules on boarding someone else's ship...

Is't "boarding someone else's ship" and attempting to gain control of said vessel basicly the same thing as piracy? They're lucky they weren't shot dead!

2008-11-15 5:48 AM
in reply to: #1809813

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Subject: RE: Whale Wars: Big Dumb Ever?
Torpedoes would take the controversy out of the boarding question...
2008-11-15 6:41 AM
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Subject: RE: Whale Wars: Big Dumb Ever?

Bripod - 2008-11-15 1:06 AM I watched the same episode and they said there's an international moratorium on whale hunting, therefore the Japanese were in the wrong. Now, I'm no maritime lawyer, so I don't know the rules on boarding someone else's ship, so both groups could have been violating laws.

But technically the ship was a scientific research vessel allowed to kill whales for research, what some groups claim and this may be the truth is that they are in fact whaling for profit.



2008-11-15 7:19 AM
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Subject: RE: Whale Wars: Big Dumb Ever?

mdg2003 - 2008-11-15 1:03 AM I'm popping some popcorn and waiting on Jim..........

I *love* this show. I watched th efirst episode last week and was absolutely enthralled , and couldn't wait for last night's show. From a purely entertainment perspective, it's extremely well done. Last week when they were attempting to launch the delta, and it capsized dumping the crew in the super-cold ocean? Crazy. So yeah, I'm a fan.

But as to the broader message, I completely support what they're doing. Whales are sentient beings and slaughtering them for food is ridiculous. The Japanese are using a loophole in the whaling convention to score millions and millions of dollars by killing 1000 whales a year for "research". The Shepherd's tactics are extreme, no doubt, but they are effective. As long as they are hassling the Japanese whalers, they aren't whaling.

Get this straight, though: they *are* pirates. They may have had a letter in their hands as they were boarding the Maru, but by their intent and actions, they completely are pirates. Heck, they even fly a Jolly Roger.

But, of course, I dig pirates. There was a time in my life when that would have been my dream job.

Side note: I completely respect the cultural whaling done by Inuits and the like.

2008-11-15 7:31 AM
in reply to: #1809929

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Subject: RE: Whale Wars: Big Dumb Ever?

As to the "research" the Japanese are doing, here are their two main "discoveries":

  • Minke whale populations are healthy 
  • Contaminant levels in whale meat are low.

So, an group that kills whales for food says there are plenty and that they are safe to eat. Surprising.

The Japanese collect data for an organization called the Institute for Cetacean Research (ICR).  The ICR says that whales must be killed to collect data, but based on the research they are doing, for the life of me, I can't see why. If you're going to do population studies, fine. But aireal surveys work fine for that. I don't see what they are learning by killing whales: are they could possibly gather from that activity is the number of dead whales there are.

As for the contaminent levels thing, they could put divers in the water and collect muscle biopsies. They say they need stomach contents, but seriously, doesn't everyone know what baleen whales eat?

ETA:

If someone can describe what vital knowledge can possibly be gained that requires killing 1000 cetaceans a year; information that can be gathered no other way that would result in long-term survival of the species being studied, I'd change my mind in a heartbeat. I'm all about research, but thinly-veiled research used to support an abhorant industry is difficult to support.



Edited by run4yrlif 2008-11-15 7:38 AM
2008-11-15 7:35 AM
in reply to: #1809828

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Subject: RE: Whale Wars: Big Dumb Ever?

mdg2003 - 2008-11-15 1:03 AM I'm popping some popcorn and waiting on Jim..........

Hope I don't disappoint.

2008-11-15 8:33 AM
in reply to: #1809813

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Subject: RE: Whale Wars: Big Dumb Ever?
aarondavidson - 2008-11-15 12:14 AM

...and am for conservation as long as human needs and most wants are covered. Everything else comes later.

I'm down with needs, it's the wants that I struggle with. If I want to sell blue whale skin coats, for example, should I be able harvest all the blue whales I want, simply because I want to?

Conservation is about more than needs and wants. It's about not screwing with ecosystems which, if irreparably harmed, can cause unforeseen problems for all of us.

2008-11-15 11:57 AM
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Subject: RE: Whale Wars: Big Dumb Ever?
run4yrlif - 2008-11-15 7:19 AM

Side note: I completely respect the cultural whaling done by Inuits and the like.

When does whaling cross the line from culturally respected to abhorent? Killing for the sake of research crosses it for me, but what of prior Japanese (and other nations') hunting for food? Is this what you meant by "..and the like"?



2008-11-15 12:00 PM
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Subject: RE: Whale Wars: Big Dumb Ever?

I know nothing about whale populations, how endagered they are, etc. so I have nothing intelligent to offer that way.  All I know is:

This show absolutely rocks!!

I came home last night after a long a pretty stressful day.  I should have done the smart thing and just gone to bed but I started watching the new episode last night and couldn't stop watching!  Then they replayed the first epy I couldn't stop watching that either!  Like was said earlier, from a pure entertainment standpoint - this show is awesome!  The scenery itself is awesome!

2008-11-15 12:46 PM
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Subject: RE: Whale Wars: Big Dumb Ever?
Force - 2008-11-15 12:57 PM
run4yrlif - 2008-11-15 7:19 AM

Side note: I completely respect the cultural whaling done by Inuits and the like.

When does whaling cross the line from culturally respected to abhorent? Killing for the sake of research crosses it for me, but what of prior Japanese (and other nations') hunting for food? Is this what you meant by "..and the like"?

To me, it crosses the line when your culture has evolved to the point where a particular food sourse is no longer necessary. The Japanese and Americans, for example, don't need whale meat as a protein or energy source. The tribal Inuit aren't there yet.

2008-11-15 2:04 PM
in reply to: #1810153

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Subject: RE: Whale Wars: Big Dumb Ever?
run4yrlif - 2008-11-15 10:46 AM
Force - 2008-11-15 12:57 PM
run4yrlif - 2008-11-15 7:19 AM

Side note: I completely respect the cultural whaling done by Inuits and the like.

When does whaling cross the line from culturally respected to abhorent? Killing for the sake of research crosses it for me, but what of prior Japanese (and other nations') hunting for food? Is this what you meant by "..and the like"?

To me, it crosses the line when your culture has evolved to the point where a particular food sourse is no longer necessary. The Japanese and Americans, for example, don't need whale meat as a protein or energy source. The tribal Inuit aren't there yet.

Can't quote me on this, but I recall reading that after the Makah tribe was allowed to hunt greys in the PNW< it was revealed that they were actually selling the meat.  *if true,* culture my a$$. 

The Japanese are so Full of sh** on this one it's not funny.  They've called Minke whales the "cockroaches of the sea."  Some cockroach, huh?  (Coral Sea 2002)

FWIW, I completely respect Paul Watson (not sure if he's in teh show, but he's the one that left Greenpeace and started the Sea Shepherd Society, an org. to which I've donated $$ in the past), he's done more for anti whaling than anyone else is willing to do, including boarding ships that are engaged in illegal activity. 

Do his actions border on insane/illegal?  Suppose so, but I have also read that no one has been injured as a result of their actions (except him - he got shot once).



Edited by ChrisM 2008-11-15 2:05 PM
2008-11-15 10:22 PM
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Subject: RE: Whale Wars: Big Dumb Ever?
aarondavidson - 2008-11-14 9:14 PM

A bit more about me: I will burn every tree on this planet to keep myself warm and kill every single animal to feed myself if it means keeping me alive.

 After that it would be a betting situation: do you die by freezing or starvation? On the other hand, if you had planted a few seeds instead...

2008-11-16 10:25 AM
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Subject: RE: Whale Wars: Big Dumb Ever?

Radical Greenpeace people blowing up food processing places is bullsh-t.

Radical Greenpeace people getting in the way of loopholed whalemen is 100% okay with me.  That "scientific process"/whaling is a complete and utter farce.  It is being done completely to satisfy the Japanese demand for whaling.

Kind of like the wholesale killing of sharks by catching them, cutting off their fins, and throwing them back into the sea.

Humans pizz me off a lot with their wanton destruction of life sometimes.



2008-11-16 7:10 PM
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Subject: RE: Whale Wars: Big Dumb Ever?
Has anyone here ate Whale? I wonder maybe it is just that good tasting?
2008-11-16 7:51 PM
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Subject: RE: Whale Wars: Big Dumb Ever?
ChrisM - 2008-11-15 2:04 PM
run4yrlif - 2008-11-15 10:46 AM
Force - 2008-11-15 12:57 PM
run4yrlif - 2008-11-15 7:19 AM

Side note: I completely respect the cultural whaling done by Inuits and the like.

When does whaling cross the line from culturally respected to abhorent? Killing for the sake of research crosses it for me, but what of prior Japanese (and other nations') hunting for food? Is this what you meant by "..and the like"?

To me, it crosses the line when your culture has evolved to the point where a particular food sourse is no longer necessary. The Japanese and Americans, for example, don't need whale meat as a protein or energy source. The tribal Inuit aren't there yet.

Can't quote me on this, but I recall reading that after the Makah tribe was allowed to hunt greys in the PNW< it was revealed that they were actually selling the meat.  *if true,* culture my a$$. 

The Japanese are so Full of sh** on this one it's not funny.  They've called Minke whales the "cockroaches of the sea."  Some cockroach, huh?  (Coral Sea 2002)

FWIW, I completely respect Paul Watson (not sure if he's in teh show, but he's the one that left Greenpeace and started the Sea Shepherd Society, an org. to which I've donated $$ in the past), he's done more for anti whaling than anyone else is willing to do, including boarding ships that are engaged in illegal activity. 

Do his actions border on insane/illegal?  Suppose so, but I have also read that no one has been injured as a result of their actions (except him - he got shot once).

I believe it was Paul Watson.  During the show they stated basicallhy that they can kill about 1000 whales a year for research and because it is also against the law to waste the meat they must sell it.  They show the Japanese whaling ships holding up signs saying what kind of research they were doing to try and make it seem okay.

 Now I am all for hunting and eating a good piece of meat but when you are circumventing the law to kill a while to make money, I have a problem.  They said each whale can make the ship up to $1M.  I am sorry, they are not reasearching, they are whaling which is illegal.

2008-11-17 7:23 AM
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Subject: RE: Whale Wars: Big Dumb Ever?
I saw the episode spoken of above and can say from a professional standpoint that what the Steve Irwin crew did was not piracy in the fact that they were not trying to take control of the vessel.
Now, boarding someone elses vessel w/o permission is against maritime law unless ordered to do so by a competent authority while enforcing international law. Of note, the skipper of the Steve Irwin does not fall under the "competent authority" aspect as he has no legal law enforcement status.
The reason they said they were boarding the Japanese boat was because they were in an area that whale hunting was banned. While I do not condone whale hunting, I also do not condone what the "Steve Irwin" was doing. By trying to foul the screw of the Japanese boat and placing people onboard w/o proper authority or permission the skipper endangered his crew.
My biggest issue is that the idiot, yes, I feel comfortable calling him that, in charge of the Irwin, had no plan or clear and concise ideas what to do when the inevitible happened. He was all about getting his people onboard to deliver a paper but other than the media, had no grand plan. He placed his people in danger, as you saw when they tried to throw the guy overboard, and when the crew asked what they should do, he sat and thought. It amazed me that he would place others lives in jeopordy and not know what to do when it happened.
2008-11-17 8:04 AM
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Subject: RE: Whale Wars: Big Dumb Ever?

NavyTRIChief - 2008-11-17 8:23 AM I saw the episode spoken of above and can say from a professional standpoint that what the Steve Irwin crew did was not piracy in the fact that they were not trying to take control of the vessel.

When they deployed the fouling line to foul the whaling vessel's prop and disable it...could that be construed as attempting to gain control of a ship?

2008-11-17 8:11 AM
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Subject: RE: Whale Wars: Big Dumb Ever?
I wouldn't see it as an attempt to control the ship but definately as an act of sabotage. Not sure of the exact rules of international law in this aspect but I believe that a captain has the right to defend his ship.
You hear alot about this with the pirates off Mogadishu and how they are now paying armed security details.


2008-11-17 8:15 AM
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Subject: RE: Whale Wars: Big Dumb Ever?
Tastes like bald eagle...

aarondavidson - 2008-11-16 7:10 PM

Has anyone here ate Whale? I wonder maybe it is just that good tasting?
2008-11-17 9:02 AM
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Subject: RE: Whale Wars: Big Dumb Ever?

leapdog - 2008-11-17 9:15 AM Tastes like bald eagle...
aarondavidson - 2008-11-16 7:10 PM Has anyone here ate Whale? I wonder maybe it is just that good tasting?

 

Bald Eagle Soup with Fried Panda is basically my favorite meal I grew up eating.

2008-11-17 9:04 AM
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Subject: RE: Whale Wars: Big Dumb Ever?

NavyTRIChief - 2008-11-17 8:23 AM  My biggest issue is that the idiot, yes, I feel comfortable calling him that, in charge of the Irwin, had no plan or clear and concise ideas what to do when the inevitible happened. He was all about getting his people onboard to deliver a paper but other than the media, had no grand plan. He placed his people in danger, as you saw when they tried to throw the guy overboard, and when the crew asked what they should do, he sat and thought. It amazed me that he would place others lives in jeopordy and not know what to do when it happened.

 

I also noticed that. They all sat around not knowing what to do. No real leadership from their captain. There was the one female who was all about the media and he sort of followed that. They couldn't follow, their smaller pursuit boat ran out of fuel as did their helicopter. It seems like his crew is a bunch of young idealists, with no real world nor any experience on the water.

2008-11-17 9:12 AM
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over a barrier
Subject: RE: Whale Wars: Big Dumb Ever?
They showed a preview of the show before the New bond movie, I was on the edge of my seat.

What channel and when is this on??????????

Edited by running2far 2008-11-17 9:12 AM
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