General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Tri bike vs. Road bike questions answered Rss Feed  
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2008-12-08 5:06 PM
in reply to: #1844376

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Subject: RE: Tri bike vs. Road bike questions answered
PennState - 2008-12-08 3:20 PM

danielc - 2008-12-08 4:48 PM
Daremo - 2008-12-08 1:21 PM
sty - 2008-12-08 2:50 PM

point of clarification: Tom Warren is the original ironman.

carry on...

Yes, he was "The Ironman" ...... Slowman just happened to be in the race as well ........

And as to the study?  Bogus.  Your pace running off the bike has nothing to do with "tri geometry" as it is completely different from manufacturer to manufacturer.  If there was some "magical" geometry, every tri bike would have it and every pro would use it ..... and that ain't the case .........

 I'm prepared to believe you, but how do you explain the results from the quoted study?  Are you saying that the results were completely fabricated, or are you saying there is another reason for the difference in 10k run times?  Just curious.

 

Just because a study is 'done' does not mean confounding variables did not affect the result...



It is true that just because a study is "done" it is not mean that it is completely reflective of the domain - researchers call this "construct validity." But I would say that when researchers disagree with a study based on construct validity they generally provide reasons as to why they believe the construct is invalid - they do not simply say I disagree with the study.

I have not read the study, I am not an exercise physiologist and am not an expert. But when this study has been debated in the past I have not seen a concrete reason to conclude that this study was constructed invalidly.


2008-12-08 5:08 PM
in reply to: #1844430

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Subject: RE: Tri bike vs. Road bike questions answered
danielc - 2008-12-08 3:40 PM

Just because a study is 'done' does not mean confounding variables did not affect the result...

Sure but I was curious if there was some specific reason to discount the results in this particular study.  And it looks like there is... (from http://fitwerx.com/bike_fitting/science-and-steep-seat-angles/ )

...the Garside study was completed indoors on a single stationary bike. There is no indication that important variables like saddle height or the length of the cockpit were changed between the two seat angles tested. The study only mentioned the seat angle and handlebar height as being adjusted and it is unlikely that a proper fit for each subject was able to be obtained in either position. It also does not speak of aerobars being used; which indicates that the athletes were probably not riding in a true aero position, but were instead just riding in a more forward and upright position during the tests. Furthermore, the athletes were limited to riding at 70% of their maximum VO2 – which may not duplicate a true race scenario. How does this all effect the results? It is impossible to tell without doing a more controlled study, but the implications are certainly worth thinking about.



This looks like someone is concerned with construct validity to me .
2008-12-08 5:41 PM
in reply to: #1842427

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Subject: RE: Tri bike vs. Road bike questions answered

Because the reality is, there are far too many variables that cannot be controlled so that you can isolate the single change of geometry in the seat tube.  And for someone to argue that CAN be controlled, they have very little understanding of the mechanics of the bike or of positioning.

Just for once on this site, I would love it if people would respect and actually listen to people who know what the hell they are talking about when it comes to their specialty.

Would you tell a doctor that they are full of sh-t when they see a compound fracture in your leg and tell you "Hey, your leg is broken?"  Doubtful.

So why is it that someone has to argue with someone else who has both been in the industry and raced for years as well as fit hundreds of people on bikes from beginner to elite amateur levels???

Again, there is very little realistic basis that changing the geometry on a frame makes any real difference in one's ability to run off the bike.  It is all about pacing on the bike, your fitness level in general, cycling and running economy of motion and a proper fit ....... WHICH CAN BE DONE ON ANY BIKE.

Bottom line, it's your money, do what you want.  But do it to get the best fit and position that allows you to put out the most power and be as aerodynamically efficient as possible.  For many, this can easily be accomplished on a road bike.  And for others, this can be accomplished on a tri bike with slack geometry (again, because there are numerous manufacturers who do NOT use a 78+ degree seat tube).

And you want to run well off the bike??  Slow the hell down and ride within your abilities, not what you THINK you can do (general statement, not directed towards an individual).  I have a high end tri bike ...... guess what, I don't always run well off the bike and I'm no slouch in either discipline.

/end rant

Sorry ........



Edited by Daremo 2008-12-08 5:41 PM
2008-12-08 5:41 PM
in reply to: #1842427

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Subject: RE: Tri bike vs. Road bike questions answered

I just copied my responce  from another thead:

Wifey and I did a ride yesterday, we went out for 18 miles on our tri bikes, then 12 miles on the road bikes. Our tri bikes are both QR (mine is a Caliente ~full DA, hers is a Tequlio~Ultegra/DA mix), Road bikes are both Trek (mine is a 2200~full Ultegra, hers is a 2100~Ultegra/DA mix).

We had a pretty good ride on the tri bikes, cool temps, some wind, when we got back to the house, we left right away on the road bikes. The first thing we said was, these bikes feel a lot bigger, more room (we have both been fitted on both bikes). We took the same route (just cut it a little short on second ride). We did try to keep the same pace on both bikes, around 18mph. It was funny, but we both found the road bikes to be way more comfortable, but just not as fast (quick off the line) feeling (differant gearing). My HR was a bit lower on the road bike, but the section that we cut short had a lot of side/head wind.

We compared the two bikes like this:

Tri bikes were like riding in a nice sports car (Corvette)

Road bikes were like riding in a luxury car (Cadillac)

We are very blessed to be able to have both flavors of bikes (or 3, as we have MTB's too).

We did not try to do a run yesterday, but that little test may happen soon...

*EDIT* We DO know that most of the differance was due to the cassetts, and that road bikes are triple while tri bikes are double (GEARING)

I have done bricks using both bikes, and (at least in my head) it is easier to run off the tri bike. And no, I have not done a real double blind taste test, just my funny little ride yesterday



Edited by Freeswimmingfish 2008-12-08 6:08 PM
2008-12-08 5:56 PM
in reply to: #1844212

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Subject: RE: Tri bike vs. Road bike questions answered
Daremo - 2008-12-08 4:21 PM
sty - 2008-12-08 2:50 PM

point of clarification: Tom Warren is the original ironman.

carry on...

Yes, he was "The Ironman" ...... Slowman just happened to be in the race as well ........

BTW Dan didn't compete in Kona until 1981. 

But just to keep on topic, I'm with you on this one Rick. I have neither the riding/racing experience, nor the tech/wrenching/fitting background, but I've read enough of these inconclusive studies to be able to agree with you 100% that "it is all about pacing on the bike, your fitness level in general, cycling and running economy of motion and a proper fit ....... WHICH CAN BE DONE ON ANY BIKE...get the best fit and position that allows you to put out the most power and be as aerodynamically efficient as possible...And you want to run well off the bike??  Slow the hell down and ride within your abilities, not what you THINK you can do"

 

2008-12-08 6:00 PM
in reply to: #1844523

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Subject: RE: Tri bike vs. Road bike questions answered
Daremo - 2008-12-08 4:41 PM


Just for once on this site, I would love it if people would respect and actually listen to people who know what the hell they are talking about when it comes to their specialty.

Would you tell a doctor that they are full of sh-t when they see a compound fracture in your leg and tell you "Hey, your leg is broken?"  Doubtful.

So why is it that someone has to argue with someone else who has both been in the industry and raced for years as well as fit hundreds of people on bikes from beginner to elite amateur levels???



[Bunch of stuff deleted]


As if the "experts" on this site spoke with one voice... It just does not happen this way at BT or in peer-reviewed research journals. There is never just one voice from the "experts."

And while I it is unlikely that I would question my physician about a compound fracture I would question them over diagnosis and treatment of conditions like diabetes and hypertension. Not all of these issues are simply black and white.


2008-12-08 6:07 PM
in reply to: #1844523

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Subject: RE: Tri bike vs. Road bike questions answered

(I'm assuming you're ranting at me because I'm the one who quoted you and asked a question). 

Daremo - 2008-12-08 3:41 PM

Just for once on this site, I would love it if people would respect and actually listen to people who know what the hell they are talking about when it comes to their specialty.

Would you tell a doctor that they are full of sh-t when they see a compound fracture in your leg and tell you "Hey, your leg is broken?"  Doubtful.

No, but if one doctor says my leg is broken and then another doctor steps in and says "that's bogus," then I'm going to question why it's bogus.  Every time.

 To me, you and Tom D are both "doctors."  When one disagrees with another, I'm interested to know why.

I was really enjoying the discussion and genuinely curious to know what was wrong with the study.  The fact that Tom Demerly quoted it in his article led me to believe there must be some credence to it (despite the fact that he potentially stands to gain from it if it leads people to buy his tri bikes).

I assume Tom Demerly has also fit hundreds of people to bikes.  As I said in my question, I was "prepared to believe you, but "just curious" why his article was wrong, since you didn't provide any explanation.

I have learned a lot from you and others on this site and I suspect that at least some of your own knowledge must have come through questioning experts to find out how they come to their conclusions.  Let me know if that's not the case.  I apologize if my post came across as calling you f.o.s.  - I sure didn't mean it that way.

 

2008-12-08 6:59 PM
in reply to: #1842427

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Subject: RE: Tri bike vs. Road bike questions answered

The article was written to point out the differences in design of tri bikes and road bikes.  The subjective views as to the benefits are largely editorial comments based on his experience.  And I agree with most of what he says.  But the easier "running off the bike" is hogwash.

As for the study?  An average of 5 minutes in a 10k by just changing the geometry of the frame???  That is about an 11% improvement for changing one variable (assuming a 45 minute 10k run).  The number alone raises a huge red flag.  And if they were truly limited to 70% of their VO2 Max on the bike (one can only assume they had accurate VO2 baseline tests and did both "test" for the bike to run in exact same conditions and state of rest and used both a HRM and oxygen testing apparatus to verify the max of 70% ........ no idea since that was never listed), what sort of "control" was given to them on the run?  On any given day one could have a better or worse run based on a huge number of factors that can never be controlled.  The paragraph quoted above in the abstract or whatever it was shows that there are far too many variables that were unaccounted for.  To make the conclusion that switchting to a "tri bike" will give you a 10+% increase in one's ability to run off the bike is borderline absurd.  The reality is that the main variable changed was the frame geometry which also can easily be done with a road bike.  It is NOT tri frame specific.

There is no magic "angle" that everyone should use.  If this were true, again, every manufacturer would use the exact same geometry in their bikes.  Which they don't.  Many of the European manufacters stick to more UCI legal stuff and end up with 73 - 75 degree tubed ...... cough cough on their tri and TT bikes.  And there are pros that ride them and do extremely well on the run.

However ...... what can (and has been) taken from the study is that by changing the angles of the rider's hips/body line/arm can have an affect on the athlete's ability to run well.  THAT is what fitters can take from it.  The study really does not address "tri bike" versus "road bike" so much as it addresses positioning in general, which as already has been mentioned is critical in ALL bikes to be the most efficient.

The thing to take from this is NOT whether you are on a tri bike or a road bike, it is how you are FIT to that bike.  I am 100% in agreement with that.  But given the right bike paired with the right person, you can do that with ANY bike.

I go back to the "not everyone should be on a tri bike to begin with" which revolves around fit and ability to hold the position.  This is a realllllllyyyyyy long thread, but covers a ton of stuff on fit and tri bikes:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=2103746;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

2008-12-08 7:04 PM
in reply to: #1844201

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Subject: RE: Tri bike vs. Road bike questions answered
klowman - 2008-12-08 3:14 PM

... but if this were the case then that a road bike can be fitted well enough for an aero position so that you don't get problems with back pain, being stretched out too far, and having the thighs too close to the torso ... or there certain styles or brands of road bikes that are better suited to an aero fitting than others?

Are there some specific things to look for, certain types of seats or seat posts, or a certain tube angle/geometry, etc ... so that if I decide to pick a road bike, I can pick one that would more easily be converted to a tri-like bike/aero position????

//

The best bike brand for you is the one that fits the best. Check around and see if you have a good bike shop in your area.  A proper fitting bike is the best place to start.  A good shop will help you get a proper stem and be able to fit aero bars to you be it a road bike or tri bike.

Bike brand is secondary to fit.

 

2008-12-08 7:36 PM
in reply to: #1842427

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Subject: RE: Tri bike vs. Road bike questions answered

x2 with Bee

 

the fit is the most important, no matter what. also, you can certainly get aerobars for your road bike, and if you feel too streched out, you can get a FastForward seat post or something like it. they are specifically designed to move your seat forward to simulate a more upright seat-tube angle and so you arent so streched out in the cockpit. they can also be adjusted so that you can move the seat back to where it would be if you left your regular seatpost in, into regular road geometry. 

 

this is what i plan to do once i get the $$. but as of yet, i have neither the seatpost or the aeroars. so i ride a straight up roadie. 

2008-12-09 12:11 PM
in reply to: #1842427

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Subject: RE: Tri bike vs. Road bike questions answered

Thanks for the article and all of the helpful rants info in this thread...

At first, I was seriously considering buying a tri bike, but most of the races I've participated in (georgia) are not flat and require some maneuvering. I also intend on starting group rides this coming year.

That, on top of the recommendation by my LBS that I go with a roadie, have helped me decide.


 



2008-12-09 1:12 PM
in reply to: #1843996

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Subject: RE: Tri bike vs. Road bike questions answered
Daremo - 2008-12-08 1:40 PM
skarl - 2008-12-08 2:37 PM At some point I would like to try a tri bike to see how the transition to running is effected .....

Myth, there is no such thing.

I love how everyone is so confident in there answers.  Like they know 100% for sure that they are right.  There hasn't been enough evidence either way to know for sure.  Just because one person experienced something one way or another does not make it the law.

2008-12-09 1:52 PM
in reply to: #1845781

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Subject: RE: Tri bike vs. Road bike questions answered
ballyard7 - 2008-12-09 2:12 PM
Daremo - 2008-12-08 1:40 PM
skarl - 2008-12-08 2:37 PM At some point I would like to try a tri bike to see how the transition to running is effected .....

Myth, there is no such thing.

I love how everyone is so confident in there answers.  Like they know 100% for sure that they are right.  There hasn't been enough evidence either way to know for sure.  Just because one person experienced something one way or another does not make it the law.

I know positively, 100% without a doubt, that I am right when I say that I am confused.

I don't know how I could prove to everyone that I'm 100% not sure, but I bet no one out there could prove 100% that I am sure.

..

2008-12-09 2:08 PM
in reply to: #1842427

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Subject: RE: Tri bike vs. Road bike questions answered
Daremo, I agree with you. I think people put way too much stock into equipment when what everyone needs is to just plain old ride more. A fancy time trial bike is going to shave seconds or fractions of seconds off your time through aerodynamics, which any typical AG'er would negate by wearing a flappy number or something of the sort. If it is more comfortable for someone to ride a TT bike, then by all means, do what makes you happy, but it's not going to win the race for you... not at the level most of us compete at.

I have found that nothing helps me more than group riding with people better than me. And in my area, the good cyclists kind of shy away from anyone who shows up for a group road ride on a TT bike. It's kind of a red flag for squirrely riders. I even feel a little conspicuous with aerobars on my road bike. I wouldn't trade the group rides for the fanciest TT bike out there, though.
2008-12-09 2:11 PM
in reply to: #1842427

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Subject: RE: Tri bike vs. Road bike questions answered

Well, based on a similar post over on the other forum where Tom D. posted an answer where he put big azz bold assuming proper fit in his post, my guess is he already got shelled about the article over there and had to modify his stance a little.  Especially since the article is a few years old!!

He even put "there are some studies that suggest" which made me giggle even more as the tune is not "you will run faster of a tri bike" as people seem to believe over here.

I posted in that thread my thoughts, he never got back to them.

You want to find out for sure???  Go get a tri bike, get fitted properly to it AND to your road bike.  Then go out and ride a 40k at the same set HR for each and follow it with a 10k as hard as you can sustain.  I'll put money down that your times are going to be pretty darn close off the bike in both cases.

Fit is fit is fit.  If you are fit well to a road bike you can run off of it just as well as you can when you are fit well to a tri bike.  It is not that hard of a concept to understand.



Edited by Daremo 2008-12-09 2:12 PM
2008-12-09 2:42 PM
in reply to: #1845901

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Subject: RE: Tri bike vs. Road bike questions answered
Daremo - 2008-12-09 12:11 PM

Fit is fit is fit.  If you are fit well to a road bike you can run off of it just as well as you can when you are fit well to a tri bike.  It is not that hard of a concept to understand.

But what about the study?

Kidding Smile - I appreciated the detailed explanation above.  I feel slightly wiser now.  Or slightly less ignorant anyway...

 



2008-12-09 2:51 PM
in reply to: #1845967

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Subject: RE: Tri bike vs. Road bike questions answered

Another Slowman-ism:

"Tunnel is for show, racing is for dough."

Just change "tunnel" to "study."

2008-12-09 2:55 PM
in reply to: #1842427

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Subject: RE: Tri bike vs. Road bike questions answered

It probably comes down to money. If you can afford a new bike, ge the tri specific machine. If not, a retrofit with your road bike will serve you well.

Matt Cazalas
Technical Writer

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2008-12-09 5:31 PM
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2008-12-09 6:01 PM
in reply to: #1846376

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Subject: RE: Tri bike vs. Road bike questions answered

PennState - 2008-12-09 6:31 PM  Feel free to dis-regard everything else he says  though.... (j/k)

Well, if it is about swimming, MAF, weights, stretching, tatoos, IM branding, supplements, electrolyte pills or other things maybe.

But I'm pretty solid on the running information.

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