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2009-01-01 7:19 AM
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Subject: RE: esteil's Group - OPEN Ultras (iron on up 50k on up)

Okay, let me see how far I can get with these questions this morning...

(Much of this was written in his race report fromt he Double.  If you are interested in his take on it all, it's a great read.) http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=94037

1. Tom is so laid back and easy going.  If I tell him to drink, he drinks.  If I tell him to eat, he eats.  If I tell him to go faster at "x" pace, he does it.  In that case, he is a dream come true.  I told him exactly what you said, "you swim, bike, and run and I will do everything else".  He keeps a smile on his face the whole time even in the lowest of times.  I can not say enough how easygoing he is and how easy he is to work with.

2.  He left his nutrition up to me...very scary...He has had terrible cramping issues at the iron distance.  After a lot of talking with him I decided that it was two-fold, dehydration and electrolytes.  We did really well at VA but I'm afraid part of that was just luck.  He is built for amazing endurace.  He will go on a 60 mile bike with nothing but a Diet Coke! 

He was not drinking enough in VA and had not peed all day and was several hours into the bike.  I told him he had to drink.  He HAD to pee.  He did but I was very concerned.  I put him on a schedule of Endurolytes and he had almost no cramping.  It was trial and error while we were there.  He has serious stomach issues with any kind of protein.  He had planned to have his Ironman cocktail for the whole race which is really easy on his stomach.  He got tried of that at the end of the bike.  I switched him  over to Coke, oranges, cold grapes and that is what he did the entire run on.  I think he drank about a gallon of Coke, if I remeber correctly.  There was also an episode with bacon in the middle of the night, but more on that later.

3.  After the race I wrote extensive notes about nutrition and what we should practice with and plan for for the next race.  Red Bull is on of the things I asked him to try.  Also V-8 and some things like oatmeal.  I have this theory about his protein problems.  I think it is because he is dehydrated.  He drinks so little and then the protein tears his stomach up.  At VA he was well hydrated and when some one offered him bacon in the middle of the night ( he ate it before I could get it away from him) and he had no stomach issues.  I have asked him to work on better hydration while training and try protein again.  I have also asked him to try more solid foods.  In the past he has been able to eat cheese sandwiches, dired pineapple and PayDay bars.  We had those in VA but he didn't want any of them.  They all seem either dry or gummy in texture to me, so I think we can find some things that will go down a little easier.  I know as he goes longer, real food becomes more important.

4.  We had an AMAZING crew in VA.  Some will be back, some won't, and some maybe.  This being the first ultra I had ever crewed and the first time I had ever met Tom, I think we did a great job.  I will say that I learned a lot about how the different personalities come into play.  As the race went on I realized the importance of when to give him which pacer.  You have to know the individual pacers personality and how it fits with where his mood is.  Very important.  This time I will know better going into the race and will think it through prior.

5.  A note on pacing, Tom does not need to be paced on the bike unless he is falling asleep or some other extreme situation.  I also can not him ride and chat with the other atletes.  The talking while riding wears him out, and makes him work harder.  Tom will ride the pace of whomever he is with and he will pay for it in the end.  He was paced on the run every lap, except one.  He needs run pacing.  Lots of run pacing.  From what he is telling me we will have some new crew additions this year, so we should once again have lots of pacers for the run.

6.  Tom told me befor the race that he was sneaky and would want to take breaks and to not let him.  Well, one of the things I did wrong was letting him stop.  He didn't take a lot of long, get off the bike breaks, but what he did do was stop.  He stopped to get water bottles, he stopped for nutrition, he stopped to ask questions.  He stopped and stopped and stopped.  He didn't stop for long.  It was 30 seconds here and a minute there.  After the race, I calculated how much time he stopped and it was hours.  I won't make that mistake again.  There will be no stopping for nutrition.  We have agreed that he will call out what he needs on the way to the timing mat and then we will hand off on the way back.  I told him if he does this, then we can build in some stretching breaks that will be more meaningful than what he was doing.  I didn't let him have the well wish emails when they came in.  I waited until his lowest point in the race and I gave them to a pacer and had the pacer read them to him.

7.  Sleep.  Tom sleep for about 30 minutes.  It was just before the sun came up so he would wake up in the light.  I think we need one of those recliner folding chairs.  I think that will be better for him to sleep on.  He said he thought he didn't sleep, that he just laid there and listened to the noise of transition.  He did sleep because I had a hard time waking him up!!  As for the crew, we had enough people that everyone got at least half a nights sleep.  We broke it up into shifts and it worked out.  I think the shifts changed around 2 or 3 am.  I was in a tough spot as for sleep.  I had an unusual situation before going to VA.  I had a dear friend who was dying in the hospital and I had spent two nights sleeping at her bedside.  This was tough because I had very little sleep for two nights.  Then I travelled with part of the crew and had another night of minimal sleep and when we arrived at VA I stayed up late getting Tom's things ready and chatting with friends.  I went into the race with 4 nights of almost no sleep...ugghhh...I wouldn't change the time I spent with my friend in the hospital but the other two nights, I should have make myself get to bed.  I slept about 40 miutes during the race.  I was pretty tired at the end.  This year, I will take better care of myself.

8.  What was my lowest time during the race?  The timimg was off.  I was keeping a timing book but I never REALLY thought there would be a problem with the timing.  At one point I had a disagreement with the timing people.  It was after lunch on day 2.  We came to an agreement that I wasn't very happy with.  I had one number of laps, they had another, and we agreed to meet in the middle.  It was the best we could do at the time but I know that Tom had to do an extra lap because of this.  Then about an hour or two later, they messed up the timing AGAIN.  The guy wouldn't listen to me and was trying to go back to where we had made the agreement before.  Anyway, it was bad.  The problem was we were both tired and I just couldn't articulate to him the situation.  I had to walk away.  I was very angry.  I talked with another crew member (who had had some sleep) and she went and explained it and got it settled.  That was one of my two lowest points.

My other lowest point was when I had to tell Tom that he was not on the lap he thought he was on.  That was hard.  Oh, and the other hard time...He was getting slower and slower.  With the added lap he wasn't going to finish in time if his pace kept getting slower and he stopped for a massage.  Uggh...I had to tell him that if he didn't do what I tald him that he was not going to finish.  He had to pick up the pace and had to go "x" pace.  He said he couldn't do it and I told him I didn't care, he would do it.  Just to follow the pacer and don't try to make them go slower.  No stopping.  Just move.  Yeah, that was hard to go through with him.  It was what he needed but it was hard.

9.  You asked about feeding the crew.  One crew member was in charge of food planning and spreading out the cooking duties.  We worked out a menu together and shopped together before we got to the race site.  It worked out really well.  Who ever was back at the cabin was getting the next meal together and then they brought it to the race site or it was cooked on a camp stove right there.  I'm not sure how it will happen this year.  I will have to wait and see what race Tom is going to do and then who the crew is. 

Well, that's all I have this morning.  I am so happy to have someone to help give ideas and thoughts on what we have done and what we can do next time.  Thank you so much for your time.



Edited by oliveview 2009-01-01 7:21 AM


2009-01-01 8:28 AM
in reply to: #1864660

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Subject: RE: esteil's Group - OPEN Ultras (iron on up 50k on up)

This is why Sherri is the greatest crew chief ever!

I don't remember half of this stuff 

 

Probably why I am doing it again

2009-01-01 9:28 AM
in reply to: #1864660

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Subject: RE: esteil's Group - OPEN Ultras (iron on up 50k on up)
I bet you remember the bacon!!
2009-01-01 2:41 PM
in reply to: #1872384

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Subject: RE: Bill two too
esteil - 2008-12-26 8:28 AM

longest bike in general for the 24 depends on your goal.  If it is to finish and be comfortable then I would suggest 15-18 hrs as your longest bike (and place it about 6 weeks prior) if it is to go fast and hard then I would be doing your longest week at 3 days at 6 hrs of hard speed.  Place that one about 5 weeks out.

 

 

Eileen,

I will plan on the "epic" 15-18 hour ride.  Understand/appreciate the n=1 comment.  Trying to work backwards from that on my plan, would you recommend a traditional 10% build, or would you get up to say a 8-10 hour ride and then just go for it?  Also, what about the midweek rides (frequency/distances)?  Your thoughts on the taper?

Re the shoulder, am now 4 weeks post-op, mostly out of the sling, and was able to get back on the trainer this week!  Had to modify my cockpit to keep my shoulder happy, but it works.  My PT is suggesting that I not even try to run for another month.....does that smell right to you?  I'd hate to mess up my recovery, but......

Happy New Year!
Bill

2009-01-02 2:18 AM
in reply to: #1874957

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Subject: RE: esteil's Group - OPEN Ultras (iron on up 50k on up)
Eileen, 
esteil - 2008-12-28 6:28 PM

Ingrid - excited about your goals :-)  Think its important to think of the big picture, but as you take the steps to your goals I would like to have you watch MadCows group (and participate too!).  He is geared towards sprint and oly which is a very healhty place to start.  I don't want you to burn out by doing too much too soon.  Why MadCow? - he likes the ultras so he will understand and help you with the basics on up and help provide a foundation for the big picture.  I can help you with some issues (female) that he can't, but think it would be good for both of us to get you there.

I thought that I had signed up for MadCows group but I didn't see my response. Although it is now full, I will definitely check into his group regularly.

I use a heart rate monitor and my biggest challenge now is keeping my heart rate down. I get winded WAY  before I get sore. 

Have you eyed a first race/distance yet? 

The first race that I'm targeting is a 5K run in Februrary.  (I have already registered!)

I am eyeing the McClinchy Mile bike ride on March 21st - http://www.bikesclub.org/html/mcclinchy/mcclinchy.htm . This race has a 20 mile easy loop, a 34 rolling hills route and a 47 mile route.
The first TRI that I'm targetting will be Saturday, April 11, 2009 :: Elma, WA: Easter Sprint Tri/Du & Kids Mini-Tri

 

 Realistically look at your week and figure out how many hours you would like to devote to training. 

I'd like to try for a minimum of 7.5 hours a week for starters.  (30 min. on the trainer and 30 min. exercise videos, 6 days a week plus 30 min running 3x week, following the couch to 5k)

I'm not working right now so I have plenty of time to train.

 

If you want someone to hold you accountable would it be ok to check in here once a week and constructively look at your weaknesses and strengths?  You chose the day, just put it on your planner and check in, ok?  

 That would be great! I think Monday would be best because that is currently my scheduled 'off day' so I should have entered all of my information for the week.

 

Part of the process of going long (and long is relative - every distance that is new to you is long) is developing the mental end.  One thing that has worked over the years is looking constructively at what is working and what can be tweaked.  For every weakness (or perceived weakness!), you have to list two strengths (positive changes). 

I have never heard of the technique of listing 2 strengths for every weakness, but I will definitiely use it.

 Excited about the new road for you woman - this is in you!

Thank you. I can't wait to get it out of me!

2009-01-02 3:50 AM
in reply to: #1879054

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Subject: RE: esteil's Group - OPEN Ultras (iron on up 50k on up)

Madcow- yes to start training earlier but only base - and a bit of speed work thrown in - shoot for either a few actual training races (upwards of the half iron stuff) or just time trial on your own.  I need to read your rr from Virginia (give me a few days to process everything and come up with a plan).  Read what I've got for Sherri in a few.  I don't think it is wise to go without protein for the triple.  Landed one of my friends in the hospital bc I thought he knew about protein.  It's really important. 

Can you get Ingrid set up for her first races of the season?

 



2009-01-02 4:01 AM
in reply to: #1880443

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Subject: RE: esteil's Group - OPEN Ultras (iron on up 50k on up)

Paulette!  Awesome on the 100 - at a great starting age!  Happy to have you here.  The more women that have done this stuff, the more we can bounce off what is norm/abnorm.

As you are aware, heal that ITB/hip first.  Did this start after the 100 in Nov or during training?  Would suspect gearing up for Aprils 50 no later than end of feb/march?

The two 100ers are they on similiar terrain, or are you choosing one for your A event?  I am all for pushing the body but I want you to feel good at the end of the year.  Which is why I ask which is more important.  You have a very aggressive season planned will be fun to see you hit your goals.

2009-01-02 4:42 AM
in reply to: #1880840

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Subject: RE: esteil's Group - OPEN Ultras (iron on up 50k on up)

Sherri -

wow!  You are an amazing crew chief! 

Need to take a few days to read/digest his rr and come up with some ideas.  The hardest thing with this stuff is there isn't anyone to ask and it is all a n=1 experience.  Since Tom is looking at the 3x this changes things.  I know it doesn't sound like much the extra 24 hrs, but realistically it is a whole different beast - think jumping from an olypmic to an iron, different worlds entirely.

After reading your input - things that jump out at me (in no particular order):

1. obviously you are the perfect fit for Tom

2. organized and aware of things that are perfect and things that need to be changed

3.  already learned about the importance of personalities and when to employ them and where

4.  YOUR REST!  If crew is exhausted, Tom is screwed.  Sorry to hear about your friend, I still don't know how you pulled off all that you did that w/end.  Kudos to you!  Obviously you can't plan for the unknown, but for the triple if at all possible plan to be there no later than Thursday morning early.  Would assume you've already rented the cabin for this race - if you guys need to go that route.

5. this is going to sound horrible - I understand where Tom is coming from just doing his thing and not thinking of nutrition.  I am the worst at this - even if I know what I am doing doesn't mean I am employing it on my own.  I'll be throwing out some new ideas in the next few months as those changes are tried out in my own training.  A very personal dear friend in my life that has reopened the past about nutrition (and things that really work) is holding my hand over the next few months to try out some methodologies (sp?).  Think I have a training camp coming up with him this month - should be a good nutritional/spiritual/healthy/ski/motorcyling boot camp plus some playtime mixed in :-).

6.  Yes to sleeping OFF the ground!  You never know what Virginia is going to bring you temp wise, and being off the ground is way important! If he has coughing issues sleeping at a 45 degree angle typically helps - but I don't think I know of anyone that has problems with coughing from the swim until you hit the 5x (pool stuff not lake stuff). 

7. lap counting - ahh, the worse nightmare of Virginia.  Think it is no more, bc Todd is there with the chip timing.  One thing that is a given, think it is important to keep track, but realistically you do whatever they say you do.  Swim until you are told to stop, cycle until they tell you to get off the bike and keep running until you get the flag.  Those rules will pretty much keep your head in the game.  Everyone loses their minds out there, starting with the athletes and ending with the chip keepers (should have been there with the hand timing!) its a long long weekend and it goes by in an instance.

8. break down and setup will talk more about that later

9.  complete pacing on the run - going to be long for 39 laps, doable, but to save on the crew and force Tom to feel like his hand wasn't held for the last 24 hrs of the race (usual set aside time for the triple marathon) its a good idea to have someone get him up the hill and back down then he runs from the gate to the turn around on his own.  It's a sense of freedom and mentally gives Tom the knowledge that this race is his.  Will talk more about that later too - after a few days you go further in your head and to develop that strength there has to be a cutting of the umbilical cord :-)

10. Really cool that you noticed him riding with others throw him off.  One of the biggest wasters of energy is worrying about others/chatting with others and then hanging by them on the course (guilty of all the above). 

11.  talk about sleep later for Tom - need to figure out where his low spot is. Typically plan on the first night a bit (45 - 90 mins) of sleep and the second night - depending on where he is at will dictate what he is allowed.

12.  Food - yep, back to that.  Personal preferance - Infinit bc you can set up your own parameters - think about this one Tom and if you haven't given it a go, chat with Michael he'll get you on par.  Plus you can add in cafeine to give you that boost.  Oatmeal is a standby for myself.  Others swear by PBJ, pretzel rods, well, there is more need to get out the door.

2009-01-02 4:52 AM
in reply to: #1881349

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Subject: RE: Bill two too

Bill,

throw the 10% build out you'll never hit it.  Be realistic with where you are at and aim for time in the saddle.

taper - 2 weeks, 70% of work load then last week 50% (not held in stone)  with long distance cycling there is actually more gained from going in with a solid volume then truly recovering and feeling stale.  Others will completly disagree, so will let you chose what works for you.

Totally happy with the no running.  Running isn't neccesary for the 24 hr bike so cool.  Plus you did do some good damage you know.  I know you WANT to run, but it is wise to wait.  Of course it might be in your best interest to find out if your PT has worked with other athletes and if this is normal protocal in the office for your injury.  THere is no right answer but I would feel better if you give it as long as needed, bc of your season (and the new distances) it is going to cause some intersting pushes on the body.

Happy New Year to you too - good things ahead for 09.

2009-01-02 5:00 AM
in reply to: #1882223

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Subject: RE: esteil's Group - OPEN Ultras (iron on up 50k on up)

Ingrid - I know MadCow's got you in his group - he says so above :-)  Go over and say hi.  He can help you get ready for the 5k.  I've never done one, so you don't want my input.  I can help you with any female issues, and of course for motivation, but I don't want to give you the wrong advice for your races.  Going to be cool to watch you progress with your goals for the year!

The winded will get better with conditioning.  Other things that will change that - slowing down, fitness, time.

Awesome on signing up for the race - that is the first step!

Technique of listing 2 strengths for every one weakness is something new I'm trying out this season.  A wonderful dear friend is in my life and teaching me lots of things I've chosen to neglect.  The other new one - do at least 3 things for YOU every day, no matter how small.  With going forward with letting the new you out, this should be easy :-)  Every Monday see you here.

2009-01-02 5:09 PM
in reply to: #1864660

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Subject: RE: esteil's Group - OPEN Ultras (iron on up 50k on up)

Eileen,

I've been on BT for 3 years, but 2009 is my year for my first attempt at an Ironman (IMCDA) and an ultra (McNaughton-50).  I'm loaded up with the BT Intermediate IM plan as CDA is my "A" race. 

Can I join your group? 

Mike



2009-01-02 6:14 PM
in reply to: #1864660

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Subject: RE: esteil's Group - OPEN Ultras (iron on up 50k on up)

Esteil,

 planning to do a 20 or 40 mile trail run in the first part of Feb followed by a trail marathon in march. Do you think the 40 is realistic? i can go run 8 to 15 no problem now... slow but i get it done. 10 to 11 min miles depending on the singletrack conditions. thanks for the help.

2009-01-03 9:29 AM
in reply to: #1864660

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Subject: RE: esteil's Group - OPEN Ultras (iron on up 50k on up)
Hello everyone,

I'm considering my first ultra this fall. I have five standalone marathons under my belt and did my first IM in Wisconsin this past September. After five years of tris being my primary focus I decided to take a year and focus on running again. I do still plan to race some tris though because the x training is so good for me and I couldn't run like I do if I didn't have it.

Other than this thread, I haven't technically told anyone yet (i.e. not posted in my log and haven't verbalized it to my friends) because I'm still a little on the fence and want to be certain before I put it out there. If I did it my plan would be to register for something in the fall. I'm looking at late October-ish. I am training for a spring marathon so I think I could recover from that and then work on building more endurance. I'd have about four-five months to prepare after my marathon is over.

Everything seems really overwhelming (deciding on the race, figuring out the logistics and expenses, finding a training plan), so if it's all right I'd like to lurk a little in this thread to see the issues people deal with and the kind of training they do while I give myself a few more weeks to decide. Either way, I'll be excited to see how the events go for those of you who are already committed to something.

Kelly
2009-01-03 9:56 AM
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2009-01-03 10:32 AM
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2009-01-04 2:03 PM
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Subject: RE: esteil's Group - OPEN Ultras (iron on up 50k on up)
esteil - 2009-01-02 5:42 AM

4.  YOUR REST!  If crew is exhausted, Tom is screwed.  Sorry to hear about your friend, I still don't know how you pulled off all that you did that w/end.  Kudos to you!  Obviously you can't plan for the unknown, but for the triple if at all possible plan to be there no later than Thursday morning early.  Would assume you've already rented the cabin for this race - if you guys need to go that route.

Yeah, there was just an unusual series of events leading up to the race in 2007.  I am sure it won't be like that again.  Tom has rented a cabin already, and I have also rented a cabin already.  We are both bringing our families with us.

5. this is going to sound horrible - I understand where Tom is coming from just doing his thing and not thinking of nutrition.  I am the worst at this - even if I know what I am doing doesn't mean I am employing it on my own.  I'll be throwing out some new ideas in the next few months as those changes are tried out in my own training.  A very personal dear friend in my life that has reopened the past about nutrition (and things that really work) is holding my hand over the next few months to try out some methodologies (sp?).  Think I have a training camp coming up with him this month - should be a good nutritional/spiritual/healthy/ski/motorcyling boot camp plus some playtime mixed in :-).

I'm okay with the planning and I am certainly okay with thinking it through for him come race time.  I just think we have a lot fo work to do on his nutrition between now and then.  I was VERY nervous before the 2007 race as we had never actually met one another.  We have the double behind us now and I am feeling much less "pressure" as far as this goes.  I know at least some things that work!

6.  Yes to sleeping OFF the ground!  You never know what Virginia is going to bring you temp wise, and being off the ground is way important! If he has coughing issues sleeping at a 45 degree angle typically helps - but I don't think I know of anyone that has problems with coughing from the swim until you hit the 5x (pool stuff not lake stuff). 

I knew we were going to be changing the sleeping arrangements for this race.  I had him on a blow-up mattress in the tent but I had already thought one of those chairs would be a much better option.

7. lap counting - ahh, the worse nightmare of Virginia.  Think it is no more, bc Todd is there with the chip timing.  One thing that is a given, think it is important to keep track, but realistically you do whatever they say you do.  Swim until you are told to stop, cycle until they tell you to get off the bike and keep running until you get the flag.  Those rules will pretty much keep your head in the game.  Everyone loses their minds out there, starting with the athletes and ending with the chip keepers (should have been there with the hand timing!) its a long long weekend and it goes by in an instance.

Was Todd there in 2007?  I ask because they did have electronic timing.  Somehow though, it was still getting messed up alot and not just with us.  I'm not too worried about it this year as I have already thought through how I am going to handle the timing.  I will keep a detailed book of the lap times but I will be much better organized this year.  I like the idea of the book (if for no other reason) because when it is over and done with, Tom can have detailed memory of what is surely a blur in his mind.

8. break down and setup will talk more about that later

I would love to hear more about this.  It was very obvious to everyone who had the experienced crews.  We were next to Kathy Roche-Wallace.  Her and her family are like a well oiled machine!  So, I know what you are talking about!  I want to be prepared for bad weather as well.  The last 2 years the weather has been beautiful and I want to be ready for a year like 2006 if necessary. 

9.  complete pacing on the run - going to be long for 39 laps, doable, but to save on the crew and force Tom to feel like his hand wasn't held for the last 24 hrs of the race (usual set aside time for the triple marathon) its a good idea to have someone get him up the hill and back down then he runs from the gate to the turn around on his own.  It's a sense of freedom and mentally gives Tom the knowledge that this race is his.  Will talk more about that later too - after a few days you go further in your head and to develop that strength there has to be a cutting of the umbilical cord :-)

LOL!  I'll let you take that up with Tom!  I think he is working on run pacers already!!

10. Really cool that you noticed him riding with others throw him off.  One of the biggest wasters of energy is worrying about others/chatting with others and then hanging by them on the course (guilty of all the above). 

11.  talk about sleep later for Tom - need to figure out where his low spot is. Typically plan on the first night a bit (45 - 90 mins) of sleep and the second night - depending on where he is at will dictate what he is allowed.

I don't even know how to begin to figure this one out.  Logically it seems that it would be better to get a fair amout of sleep (2 hours or so) the first night which would give you enough to push through the second night.  It is something that I know nothing about.  He and I have a lot to learn.  Then again, it's like the nutrition.  He isn't going to think about it, so it is up to me to figure out what he is going to do.

12.  Food - yep, back to that.  Personal preferance - Infinit bc you can set up your own parameters - think about this one Tom and if you haven't given it a go, chat with Michael he'll get you on par.  Plus you can add in cafeine to give you that boost.  Oatmeal is a standby for myself.  Others swear by PBJ, pretzel rods, well, there is more need to get out the door.

The thing that has held him back has been his ability to tolerate protein.  We HAVE TO find a solution for this.



2009-01-04 2:34 PM
in reply to: #1864660

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Subject: RE: esteil's Group - OPEN Ultras (iron on up 50k on up)

Infinit's nutritionist, Kim, is a friend of mine. I will shoot her an email and figure out what I should use.

Thanks again

2009-01-04 8:07 PM
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Subject: RE: esteil's Group - OPEN Ultras (iron on up 50k on up)
Paulettejo - 2009-01-03 9:56 AM

Kelly, 

 I can tell you that gearingup for my first ultra was not that agressive.  I made a goal to average 50-60 miles a week.  I made the decision early on that I am not a pro athlete and that I have a family and commitment.  So compared to others, I bet my training sucked.  I don't think I went into the race unprepared.  In fact, my body held up fine, my stomach was all over the place at one point.  



Thanks Paulettejo. I think I would tend towards less mileage training myself. I'm a decent runner, but after 20 years of doing it, I know from experience that too many miles in training and I get overtrained or injured before I ever make it to the race. I do a lot less mileage than most people would recommend, but it works for me. I rarely ever hit 40 miles in a week unless I have a 20 miler for a marathon. Most weeks I don't top about 25-30 miles.

What's most concerned me are the training programs that call for two long runs back to back on the weekends. I couldn't do that very often or I'd be in trouble. And I'd need to space them out if I had to do several of them. This is what makes me think I need a big training window - so I have time to get those heavy mileage weekends in with adequate rest in between. But this is also where I realize that some of you who have been through this before may have some suggestions.

Edited by MissKelly 2009-01-04 8:08 PM
2009-01-04 11:00 PM
in reply to: #1883192

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Subject: RE: esteil's Group - OPEN Ultras (iron on up 50k on up)

Hey Mike!

welcome aboard :-)  As funny as this sounds, but can you get me the dates on those races? I would suggest following the game plan for the iron, but want to see what the time frame is for the 50 miler to help prevent burn out and injury, along with proper build. 

 

2009-01-04 11:22 PM
in reply to: #1883255

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Subject: RE: esteil's Group - OPEN Ultras (iron on up 50k on up)

ellasdad - I am trying to get a good feel of your background.  I looked over at your log (still have no clue what is on this site, so excuse me for my ignorance as I am limited on time right now).  If you updated your log regularly it appears as if 180ish miles is what you covered in all of 2008.  Now, I am one for saying screw it and going for it, however, I am concerned that the 40 plus a few weeks later the 26 adds up to 1/3 of what you did in 08 in about a 6 week time frame.  On trails ;-)  If it was my body, and going through the changes, I would go conservatively and do the 20 as training for the marathon. 

From reading where you are doing tons of training on Umstead trails so only you know if you are ready for the 40 over the 20.  If it is possible to go for the 40 and have an option of dropping out if the body talks to you?  I think a 30 (not 40) would be perfect at this point. 

Now, if the 40 is the A event, then forget everything I just said.  Finishing that new distance is always exhilirating, and knocking it out this early in the new year would be way cool.  of course that is with the knowledge that if the body isn't recovered properly for the off road mary you bail on that one.

You will never know quite what the body is capable of until you test it :-) but be smart and know when to let the ego go and save the body for the next go around.

 

2009-01-04 11:33 PM
in reply to: #1884015

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Subject: RE: esteil's Group - OPEN Ultras (iron on up 50k on up)

Kelly -

Welcome :-)  when you are ready, you'll know.  Ask away anything you've got.  From the cross section already on here you can get lots of info.  There are no time limits as to when you have to/need to do something.  You'll know when its right. 

This all might appear overwhelming, but its just something you haven't played with yet.  Keeping an open mind goes a long long way out on the road.

Excited to see more women planning/doing for going long.  I don't know if any of you know this, but women tend to peak later for ultras - way cool!!

~eileen



2009-01-04 11:41 PM
in reply to: #1884053

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Subject: RE: esteil's Group - OPEN Ultras (iron on up 50k on up)

Paulettejo -

I am hoping you are still addressing the ITB?  If you haven't found the foam roller yet - do.  Also be sure it isn't a pelvis dysfunction (unleveling) that is causing the ITB.  With ITBs it is very common to have pelvic issues.  Or you could have just ran yourself into the ground with that 100 run too.

Please don't be so hard on yourself about thinking your training sucked for the 100 - not only did you get in what you needed to, you got the race done, plus life was balanced - thats a great thing!

Happy to see you doing the 1/2 as the body is healing.  Going to be a good year for you!

~eileen

2009-01-04 11:57 PM
in reply to: #1884093

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Subject: RE: esteil's Group - OPEN Ultras (iron on up 50k on up)

Bill,

happy to see the bug is leaving you!  I like your plan.  As for which to do first the bike or the run, I am thinking the bike usually.  You  have an interesting set up with the bike race and the desire to BQ.  After looking at your log (all be it quickly) I think both are very doable for you.  It might not be a bad idea to throw in the reverse every now and then (the long run first).

Think for the 320 the set up you have for the bike is perfect.  If possible to simulate race terrain in your training, try to do that for at least a few of the longer rides.

~eileen 

2009-01-05 12:57 AM
in reply to: #1885425

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Subject: RE: esteil's Group - OPEN Ultras (iron on up 50k on up)
oliveview - 2009-01-04 2:03 PM
esteil - 2009-01-02 5:42 AM

4.  YOUR REST!  If crew is exhausted, Tom is screwed.  Sorry to hear about your friend, I still don't know how you pulled off all that you did that w/end.  Kudos to you!  Obviously you can't plan for the unknown, but for the triple if at all possible plan to be there no later than Thursday morning early.  Would assume you've already rented the cabin for this race - if you guys need to go that route.

Yeah, there was just an unusual series of events leading up to the race in 2007.  I am sure it won't be like that again.  Tom has rented a cabin already, and I have also rented a cabin already.  We are both bringing our families with us.

- cool more peeps to rotate for the sleep deprived.   The bodies will be needed for the triple!

5. this is going to sound horrible - I understand where Tom is coming from just doing his thing and not thinking of nutrition.  I am the worst at this - even if I know what I am doing doesn't mean I am employing it on my own.  I'll be throwing out some new ideas in the next few months as those changes are tried out in my own training.  A very personal dear friend in my life that has reopened the past about nutrition (and things that really work) is holding my hand over the next few months to try out some methodologies (sp?).  Think I have a training camp coming up with him this month - should be a good nutritional/spiritual/healthy/ski/motorcyling boot camp plus some playtime mixed in :-).

I'm okay with the planning and I am certainly okay with thinking it through for him come race time.  I just think we have a lot fo work to do on his nutrition between now and then.  I was VERY nervous before the 2007 race as we had never actually met one another.  We have the double behind us now and I am feeling much less "pressure" as far as this goes.  I know at least some things that work!

- girl from what I read, you naturally grabbed at straws and found things that worked!  So now that you got that wet behind the ears feeling out of you, the next step is ready for you!  You kids will be fine.  Tom's going to try some stuff out in training and not leave all the planning up to you.  Once the gun goes off, the nutrition is completly in your hands, but he's got homework to do first :-)  I forgot to mention to him about trying out ensure or boost in training - in addition to the infiinit or whatever he finds that work.  He CANNOT do the triple without protein, its that simple.  In the ultra world I know of only a few that are vegitarians that can handle the 2x and 3x without protein  but their bodies are adjusted to the abuse and they use protein (including going nonvegan) during the 5x and 10x.  Knowing all this, he has to figure something out, it is that important.

6.  Yes to sleeping OFF the ground!  You never know what Virginia is going to bring you temp wise, and being off the ground is way important! If he has coughing issues sleeping at a 45 degree angle typically helps - but I don't think I know of anyone that has problems with coughing from the swim until you hit the 5x (pool stuff not lake stuff). 

I knew we were going to be changing the sleeping arrangements for this race.  I had him on a blow-up mattress in the tent but I had already thought one of those chairs would be a much better option.

- my sister found the perfect fold up cot I think for maybe 100 at maybe Sears (?) in the camping section a few years back.  This baby has served me well.  What you want to look for is something that is not too soft (he will need the support), and at a decent height that when he has to get back out not having to use the legs too much.  If you stick with the blowup please make sure you have a foot pad under the tent so the dew/cold ground won't bother whomever is sleeping on the bed.

7. lap counting - ahh, the worse nightmare of Virginia.  Think it is no more, bc Todd is there with the chip timing.  One thing that is a given, think it is important to keep track, but realistically you do whatever they say you do.  Swim until you are told to stop, cycle until they tell you to get off the bike and keep running until you get the flag.  Those rules will pretty much keep your head in the game.  Everyone loses their minds out there, starting with the athletes and ending with the chip keepers (should have been there with the hand timing!) its a long long weekend and it goes by in an instance.

Was Todd there in 2007?  I ask because they did have electronic timing.  Somehow though, it was still getting messed up alot and not just with us.  I'm not too worried about it this year as I have already thought through how I am going to handle the timing.  I will keep a detailed book of the lap times but I will be much better organized this year.  I like the idea of the book (if for no other reason) because when it is over and done with, Tom can have detailed memory of what is surely a blur in his mind.

- Thinking it was still Todd.  I know this year I saw him using a board in addition to the computer system.  It isn't flawless, but it is about as good as it gets.  Again, please don't be so  hard on yourself about that first go around - you did fabulous - especially for the first run at things!!  For the triple, its going to be a numbers game, and not just an attrition thing, but figuring out the sleep for all involved which leads to major confusion and misjudgement in the head.

=8. break down and setup will talk more about that later

I would love to hear more about this.  It was very obvious to everyone who had the experienced crews.  We were next to Kathy Roche-Wallace.  Her and her family are like a well oiled machine!  So, I know what you are talking about!  I want to be prepared for bad weather as well.  The last 2 years the weather has been beautiful and I want to be ready for a year like 2006 if necessary. 

- Kathy rules and has to be one of my favorite athletes.  LOVE her family :-) and her.  Your first time you should have felt clueless, that was all part of the fun.  This next one will still have clueless moments, but trust me you will feel very ready.  EVERYONE learns from everyone else...if not, you've officially stopped living.  Yes to being prepped for crap weather.  Over the course of a weekend, prepare for the worst and handle whatever is dished.  Not much time tonight, but will get you better prepared as things get closer.  First things first - getting Tom's nutrition and training down!  I'll have better food ideas as soon as I spend a weekend with my favorite man in February at the escape training/play weekend.

9.  complete pacing on the run - going to be long for 39 laps, doable, but to save on the crew and force Tom to feel like his hand wasn't held for the last 24 hrs of the race (usual set aside time for the triple marathon) its a good idea to have someone get him up the hill and back down then he runs from the gate to the turn around on his own.  It's a sense of freedom and mentally gives Tom the knowledge that this race is his.  Will talk more about that later too - after a few days you go further in your head and to develop that strength there has to be a cutting of the umbilical cord :-)

LOL!  I'll let you take that up with Tom!  I think he is working on run pacers already!!

- crap.  He's going to need them, however a pacer can be as much of a help and a hinderence.  Going to give Tom some prep ideas that might be able to make his legs better for that hill repeat.  Hopefully he's blocked backwards at least 24 hrs for the triple mary.  That is not a definate, but its a good start.  Thats a lot of hours of hand holding, so hoping he can change his mindset about the runners.  Without music, I can see why he would want that help.

10. Really cool that you noticed him riding with others throw him off.  One of the biggest wasters of energy is worrying about others/chatting with others and then hanging by them on the course (guilty of all the above). 

11.  talk about sleep later for Tom - need to figure out where his low spot is. Typically plan on the first night a bit (45 - 90 mins) of sleep and the second night - depending on where he is at will dictate what he is allowed.

I don't even know how to begin to figure this one out.  Logically it seems that it would be better to get a fair amout of sleep (2 hours or so) the first night which would give you enough to push through the second night.  It is something that I know nothing about.  He and I have a lot to learn.  Then again, it's like the nutrition.  He isn't going to think about it, so it is up to me to figure out what he is going to do.

- mistake number one - TOM HAS TO THINK ABOUT THIS in training, NOT during the race.  In training he's going to have to come up with the game plan.  He lives in his body, not you, so he has to either give you the game plan or give you enough info to figure out his strengths and weaknesses to put it together.  From there, once the gun goes off, THEN Tom relys on you to follow the plan - which I know you are perfect at :-)

What I would suggest at this point is trying to figure out in a 36 hr sleep dep period where his knock himself off the feet moment is.  I know that is a lot to ask of him with his wife and kids, but would rather have him find it out over the course of a weekend than out on the race course asleep on the bike (guess how I know this uncomfortable factoid ).  I don't want him to go through the useless learning experiences on the race course.  Once he figures out his 'out time', next step is to figure out his rem cycle.  This will dictate the period of sleep. 

I was able to read through his rr from the double - way cool.  One thing I gathered is I think he is on par speed wise with my own racing.  From this knowledge, I hate to say this, but thinking anything from 45 mins to 2 hrs max is all I would sleep that first night.  I've slept away races and for myself, the triple I only allow one 45 min nap the first night, then one additional 10 minute cat nap at sunrise, then the second night one 20 minute massage   To help keep his mind fresh and not panicked about not getting the massage - he has to realize you are there and can improvise for help.  It isn't rocket science, and I know you can figure out what to do.  I am not certain if I am racing (use that term loosely) virginia, or able to come help out and won't know for a few more weeks.  I can however walk you through those needs.  If I am not there in person, I am just a phone call away at any given time - I try to make sure I am not in the mountains when I have friends racing.  It wouldn't be the first time I've fielded a phone call in the middle of an event - so no worries on contact if you need that supportline. 

The sleep thing is still a crap shoot.  I've done 5 triples and only one finish (for various reasons - most were used just for training with the exception of the first attempt and the two in Germany).  The same sleep plan is what worked for myself.  I can only speak from experience.  The first one I had ZERO clue what I was getting into, and my poor sister, wow I was pretty abusive to her.  I changed into the triple 2 days before the event and asked my sister to rent a car and find her way to me.  On her way out, maybe if she could pick some food up for us in case we got hungry.  I tried to watch what other athletes did and mimick them - that was foolish.  I say this, bc the info I am giving you applies to my body only.  He's not going to know what works until he tries it out in training.  No way could you figure it out for him - he's the only one with the answers.  During the event you can keep track of his lap times and dictate accordingly, as he will be way out of it.  For the sleep, I've seen athletes use zero on up to 2-3 hrs.  I have no clue what the right answer is - one more beauty of this fun!!! 

What I do know for certain - only 60 hrs.  that ticks quickly, and it ticks faster towards the end.  You go from then time to now time (will explain this concept later).  Everything gets accelerated towards the end, and harder in the triple.  The double is very doable - big challenge yes, but doable on iron training.  The triple is a whole different beast.  It is my personal worst nightmare.  I'd rather do 2 decas in a season than one triple - it is that challenging.  Because of the sleep dep stuff and my slowness.  For the fast athletes the triple is a challenge but not mentally abusive.  For those pushing the cut off, it is very mentally abusive. 

12.  Food - yep, back to that.  Personal preferance - Infinit bc you can set up your own parameters - think about this one Tom and if you haven't given it a go, chat with Michael he'll get you on par.  Plus you can add in cafeine to give you that boost.  Oatmeal is a standby for myself.  Others swear by PBJ, pretzel rods, well, there is more need to get out the door.

The thing that has held him back has been his ability to tolerate protein.  We HAVE TO find a solution for this.

- He'll find it, bc if he doesn't there is a beautiful hospital bed that will find him.  Rhabdomylolosis (probably spelling that wrong) is very real, and that is what he gets as a gift if he doesn't take this serious.  Sorry Tom, had to Mom you.  Your wife and crew want a healthy finish line that doesn't involve a run by the hospital.  Kim will get you squared away.  As mentioned earlier - ensure/boost is also the good old standby for a quickie slam.  Designer Whey Protein is something to play with too. 

My guy friend I see in a few weeks is a bodybuilder/powerlifter and will be updating me on all things new in the supplement world for endurance purposes.  He understands completely (first guy I've ever dated to actually get it!) the abuse and damage to the system and is helping with research on products that are safe for the long haul.  I've got another holistic powerlifter doctor on the case too.  We're running blood samples to get an idea of the damage sustained.  If you haven't found out your baseline yet, please do.  AnyLab is a chain down here that you walk into and get samples pulled for under 100.  They give you the norm and abnorm values.  I get mine pulled at least once a month in heavy training which for most I would suggest once every 3-4 months or more often if the body is sluggish.

ok sherri - long start. hope some of this helped.  i need some sleep.

2009-01-05 1:06 AM
in reply to: #1885466

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Subject: RE: esteil's Group - OPEN Ultras (iron on up 50k on up)

Tom -

read above.  all of it.   don't be mad at me for being firm.  The protein thing is life sustaining, ok?

If possible I want to chat with you via phone sometime in the next 2 weeks to get a lay of the land with you.  In my head, I don't want to see you just finish, I see a strong push and going in fit both mentally and physically - and having fun!  Maybe even remembering a bit more this time around once the nutrition is squared away.  I want to be sure you have the correct info about the sleep prep stuff and a few other simple ideas.  On my blog over at wordpress (www.decaironsteil.wordpress.com)  I had written up a big thing for GIJoe about the triple.  This might provide for entertaining reading for you.  His/my rr for the virginia w/end is done I've just not linked it up yet (as with the deca thing I can't conclude the run part yet still piecing it together in my head).  The info way down at the begining though might give you some info not covered here.  The triple is a different event all together.  It's in you, but balance is key with the training.  You've got a great family, you want to keep it that way.

I don't know if I wrote about sissy squats on the blog - but those things really do work for making the quads stronger for the hills.  I got one of the mountain climbers I know to do them and she noticed a huge difference in her running ability and in recovery.  For point of reference - I do at least 600 at a time 2-3 times/week to build up the endurance.  Muscles don't fatigue anymore only bodyparts blister.  This will be an easy thing to throw into your training.

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