General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Swim base training - advice? Rss Feed  
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2009-01-12 11:39 PM

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Subject: Swim base training - advice?

Hi all. I'm a pretty new swimmer (4 months now), and am a Total Immersion self-taught M33 swimmer. I've made some good progress, going from really sloppy and slow to at least floating properly and respectable pacing.

As it's winter and there are few OWS to do, I've been "base training" on the swim, similar to what I do on the run or bike. Meaning few to no sprint sessions, and preferring longer swims.

I'm on a 3x/wk swim schedule (I'm run-focused now) and typical training are 3 swims: 45 mins, 60mins, and 70-75mins currently. It's all at easy aerobic pace for me, and although my stroke count gets a bit worse after 45 mins or so, I make sure my form doesn't deterioriate too much. I swim at about 2:00min/100m pace, pretty steadily the whole way.

Still, I'd like to improve if I can during this phase. I know that swimming more days would be the best option, but I'm going to save the 5x/wk swims for when the water warms up, and I'll go swim-focused then. So for now, was wondering:

- Should I do any speedwork? I've occasionally done 6 x 200s - they're hard, but seem to help some. Still, not sure if they're more benefit than the long swims right now.

- What duration aero swim should I aim for if I'll definitely do an Oly distance later this year, and if possible, a HIM? (The swim is my limiting factor for the HIM - I can do the bike/run already.)

- I'm still uncoached, and haven't taken a lesson yet. There are some pricey packages around here for $200 for 3 swim coaches and a short video session. Think it might be worth it for a completely uncoached swimmer like myself?

- On these long aero swims, my arms definitely do not get sore or burn. They fatigue a little, but I can definitely keep swimming a lot longer. Should I try and go faster (I worry about my form deterioriating), or should I go longer? I mention this, since on run/bike, my long workouts typically give my legs a good beating, and I'm not getting the similar beatdown on my swims.

Thanks

 

 



Edited by agarose2000 2009-01-12 11:40 PM


2009-01-12 11:50 PM
in reply to: #1903803

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Subject: RE: Swim base training - advice?
a few things here.

first off, long slow swimming is going to do two things, one, its going to teach you to go long and slow, and two, its going to ingrain any bad habbits you may have picked up (trust me they are hard to unlearn).

if you can afford it, or find another swimming willing to help once or twice (dont discount highschool swimmers, they often can help a lot!) do it, it will do wonders for your swimming.

swimming is one of the few sports where you can do all intervals and not get hurt. intervals are very time effeciant, and will get you faster quicker than simply going in and plugging along.

mix up your swimming a bit, if you enjoy the longer swims, stick with one (i would still break it up some), and look at changing the other two to incorpirate some faster work. there are endless combinations of workouts you can pick or make up to do, but getting in some faster work will allow you to see much faster gains in fitness, and having there be a short rest between each will ensure your stroke stays strong and with proper form.

2009-01-13 6:41 AM
in reply to: #1903803

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Subject: RE: Swim base training - advice?

I'll second that.

Definitely get some coaching. Maybe there's a masters session at your pool? With your self taught background I'd say the quickest way for you to improve your swim is to get lessons and do a ton of drills.

When I was swimming in High School I used to train about 18 hours a week, but any major improvements always came from changing something about my technique.

2009-01-13 6:47 AM
in reply to: #1903803

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Subject: RE: Swim base training - advice?

I use swimplan.com quite often to make my workouts for me. They let you select difficulty and ask what you are training for.

2009-01-13 6:59 AM
in reply to: #1903803

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Subject: RE: Swim base training - advice?
Form and efficiency are king, especially in the beginning and over the off season. Speed will come after much practice as form and efficiency improve and you swim more.
Getting a lesson or a series of lessons will help a lot. Whether 3 sessions and a video for $200 is right for you may depend on what else is available. If you are just beginning, I think you might get more out of more lessons for the same money without the video. It would seem to me the video would be more useful later when making more minor changes rather than the major stroke modifications most will expereince in the beginning, which with the right coach should be fairly easy to grasp without a video.
2009-01-13 9:09 AM
in reply to: #1903803

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Modesto, California
Subject: RE: Swim base training - advice?
I like to mix up my workouts with a nice long warmup, some kick and pull sets, a few drills, and a main set that would be 100's-200's, maybe some 25 yrd sprints and a cooldown. Try to have a purpose that you can focus on during your main set(pull,pace,breathing,rotation, relaxing, etc). You can vary the pace of your main set, gradually get faster or one fast one easy,etc. Race distance time trials are helpful also. 


2009-01-16 10:06 PM
in reply to: #1903803

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Subject: RE: Swim base training - advice?

Just checking in again here. I took your advice and went to swimplan.com to generate a workout. 

 It gave me something like this for the "meat" of it:

3 x 100m, 15 sec rest 

3 x 100m, 20 sec rest

2 x 100m, 15 sec rest

2 x 100m, 15 sec rest

This workout was actually too short (I plugged in the 45-60min workout, but it ended in about 25-30mins), so I doubled it - first "set" with breathing to the left, and second "set" breathing to the right. Tough, but solid.

All at mod-hard intensity. I've just started, and have done 2 of these workouts, but I think the faster swimming is helping a lot. I'm sure my long easy base training swims of up to 60 mins helped a lot - for sure, I wouldn't have been able to do these workouts 8 weeks ago.

First time I did this swimplan "doubled" workout: Averaged 1:50/100m on left breathing, 1:46/100m on right breathing.

Two days later, same workout: Averaged 1:45/100m on left breathing, and 1:41/100m on right breathing. My first set on my right came in at 1:31 - I think that's the fastest I've swum, EVER. 

I'm definitely SOLD on the higher-intensity swims. Last question - should I continue some of those long easy 45-60min continuous swims (avg 2:00-2:10 pace), or should I keep "hammering" on these swimplan.com intervals? 

 

 

 

2009-01-16 10:39 PM
in reply to: #1913439

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Subject: RE: Swim base training - advice?
i would personally still keep a longer swim if you think its helping you, however, i would look at possibly switching it over and breaking it up into 800m, or 1k, or 15 min, etc. that way you stop for a min, get a min to get your tech back together, than get back at it.



as for the swimplan workouts, if the workouts are too easy (and assuming you put in accurate paces), do one of wo things, either go back and adjust the TT pace you gace it by a bit, or click harder workout when you are building one.

it will spit out some solid workouts, just need to know how to makeit work for you;-)
2009-01-17 10:22 PM
in reply to: #1903803

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Subject: RE: Swim base training - advice?
agarose2000 - 2009-01-12 10:39 PM

I'm on a 3x/wk swim schedule (I'm run-focused now) and typical training are 3 swims: 45 mins, 60mins, and 70-75mins currently. It's all at easy aerobic pace for me, and although my stroke count gets a bit worse after 45 mins or so, I make sure my form doesn't deterioriate too much. I swim at about 2:00min/100m pace, pretty steadily the whole way.

- Should I do any speedwork? I've occasionally done 6 x 200s - they're hard, but seem to help some. Still, not sure if they're more benefit than the long swims right now.

- What duration aero swim should I aim for if I'll definitely do an Oly distance later this year, and if possible, a HIM? (The swim is my limiting factor for the HIM - I can do the bike/run already.)

- I'm still uncoached, and haven't taken a lesson yet. There are some pricey packages around here for $200 for 3 swim coaches and a short video session. Think it might be worth it for a completely uncoached swimmer like myself?

- On these long aero swims, my arms definitely do not get sore or burn. They fatigue a little, but I can definitely keep swimming a lot longer. Should I try and go faster (I worry about my form deterioriating), or should I go longer? I mention this, since on run/bike, my long workouts typically give my legs a good beating, and I'm not getting the similar beatdown on my swims.

Shoot some video of yourself and load it up on YouTube -- there are some excellent coaches here that can offer you some free advice.  One catch is that the coaches might disagree!  The benefit with a single local coach is you'll get a consistent message.

$200 for three lessons strikes me as pretty expensive -- the best coaches here in Boulder charge $60 per hour and they are world class.

I learned to swim from scratch -- if you are like me then, four mths in, going "hard" just means your technique will get worse.  Like others pointed out, you want to reinforce good technique.  If you can only hold your stroke for 45 mins then that's enough -- hop out, go for a run -- or consider doing swim cords in front of a mirror to reinforce good technique.  You'll find swim cord tips here: http://www.endurancecorner.com/library/swimming/swim_cords

 You'll get a lot more benefit from 4x per week than longer, or harder.

 At your level, you might be able to hold decent technique for some faster 25s.  That might be something to consider -- still, #1 is learning relaxed, three stroke breathing for your goal race distance.  

I recommend that your program should be geared towards that goal.  If you can't swim for 60 minutes continuous without stopping then, odds are, you might already be doing most of your swimming over functional threshold (ie pretty 'hard').

A great skill to learn, for open water swimming, is the ability to change speed in the water.  Rather than swimming 'fast' for an entire interval, learn to pick up the pace for 25-100 then recover, while swimming.  Great skill to have.

 Hope this helps -- if you can swim for 75 minutes and you are only 4 mths in then you are making very rapid progress!

g

2009-01-18 4:48 PM
in reply to: #1903803

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Subject: RE: Swim base training - advice?

Thanks for the solid advice, Gordo. I will see if I can arrange a video shot of myself in a pool in the near future for some analysis online from all you great folks! I actually have trained to the point where I can do an entire hour of mod-hard intervals as listed above with minimal deterioration of form as measured by speed & stroke count - I just have a hard time swimming faster than my current pace and am looking to get consistenly faster. I do suspect that I am over-rotating, being a disciple of Total Immersion, and also suspect I have some issues with the straightness of my stroke, which probably veers over the midline from time to time. 

Last question - on my pull, my arm dips pretty much straight down with only a slight shoulder bend. I've seen videos of experts who have a much bigger elbow bend, however, when I try this, I lose a lot of speed. I feel like I can "catch" much more water by reaching out and deep as far as I can - is this a mistake?

2009-01-19 12:28 AM
in reply to: #1915160

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Subject: RE: Swim base training - advice?
yep it is.

think of it like this. if your arm is straight through the whole pull, the only portion of the drive that you are getting your full power is when your arm is stright, the rest of the time you are also working to get it down and striaght, or up and slongside you.

with your elbow bent, you are able to begin pulling with your arm in the correct position as soon as it enters the water.

think of it like this.
stand up, and imagine pulling a weight down with your arm striaght. you have a very limited range that you can actually pull it dowm, and a very low weight you can move (try this with a cable at your gym if you like). now stand almost under it, and pull down along your body. you have a MUCH longer pull, and are much stronger/better suported that way.

sorry if that made no sense, how it was explained to me when it finally clicked.


2009-01-19 4:57 AM
in reply to: #1915731

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Subject: RE: Swim base training - advice?
In addition to what newbz said... If we are correct in what we think you're doing based on that limited description...

Often why you feel the need / feel faster doing the straight arm pull is to make up for sinking legs. With a more horizontal body position, the high-elbow pull will feel/be faster.
2009-01-19 8:50 AM
in reply to: #1915160

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Subject: RE: Swim base training - advice?

Good tips on the 'why' of the high elbow.

With my own swimming, I don't have the ability to keep my scapula down when I try to swim like Phelps/Thrope -- as well, if I try to snap my forearm into the classic catch position a spend a lot of energy for little return.  

So, for an athlete with limited shoulder flexibility, enter down (not out) then pull straight back.  The sensation of pulling with a straight arm is how it feels.  When most of us "bend" our arms, what is really happening is that the elbow is slipping as the lat engages.  So the 'bend' is often the hand/forearm falling out of the pull pattern to reduce load on the back/deltoids.

 The great thing about this is video will show you pretty quick -- if you don't have access to an underwater camera then you can see alot of what's happening underwater with good lighting and minimal surface waves.

 Some swim tips from my wife:

 Continue to do the drills from last week plus:

  • Left arm only. Keep right arm right out in front of you. Go slow and keep both hands at the surface of the water pull straight down trying to touch the bottom of the pool
  • Right arm only. Same as above
  • Left arm only. Right arm is tight at your side. Breath the opposite way of the arm you are using. Again stretch thru your armpit, fingers/ palm enter at surface. Drop wrist and pull straight down.
  • Right arm only. Same as number 3
  • High swingers. Just big round- straight arm strokes. Even the finish. Scratch your thigh to know you are finishing your stroke

After each drill add a 25 or 50 of free swim thinking about that drill while swimming.

Finish each drill session with 3 or 4 100's descending. Continue to think of strokes (front end) not speed.

2009-01-19 12:53 PM
in reply to: #1915975

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Subject: RE: Swim base training - advice?
Gordo -

Could you explain a little bit further? On your old site where you demonstrated the vasa it seemed you were doing a "textbook" early vertical forearm.

Thanks.
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