General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Stroke change that sped me up 15-20 sec per 100 Rss Feed  
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2009-01-27 1:16 PM

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Sneaky Slow
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Subject: Stroke change that sped me up 15-20 sec per 100

This is from my log today... I made a change to my stroke today that resulted in about a 15-20 second difference per 100 yards.  I don't know much about stroke mechanics, and am not posting this to toot my own horn, but maybe this will help someone else doing something similar.


So I've always known I had a slow cadence swimming. I would kind of almost lay my hand on top of the water while the other hand was on the recovery, and then start my pull. Almost like how a plane lands, at an angle almost parallel to the ground. That's how my hand would approach the water. Then it would sit for for a sec before I started my "pull." I knew it wasn't right, but didn't know how to fix it. So last night after our swim, a fellow BTer mentioned cadence and talked a bit about how her hand comes towards the water at an angle. So I just tried to imitate what she was doing, and tried a few lengths that way, untimed, and it felt faster, but I wasn't sure.  So I tried it out in a short set today.

The change that I made was to get the elbows higher up in the air, and have my hand approach the water at more of a, say 30-40 degree angle, instead of the 5 or 10 degrees that it was. What happens, is that now my arm slices through the water, and is lower once extended, and in the right place to start my pull. Before, my hand and arm had to move vertically down through the water, almost perpendicular to the bottom of the pool, before it was in the right place to start pulling. That wasted a tremendous amount of energy and time, as that vertical motion didn't do anything to propel me forward. And it is harder to move a straight arm down through through the water, as opposed to slicing it at an angle.

So this change had the effect of increasing my cadence without working harder, and now almost all the underwater arm motion is used for the pull. Very exciting.

If you look at my 100s from last night, they were 1:55, 1:57, 2:00, 1:56.

Today, 1:36 (warmup), 1:39, 1:38.

The last time I did a set of 50s, they were :53,:54,:54,:54,:54,:53.

Today, :45,:43,:44,:45,:43,:42

Same effort for all these sets.



2009-01-27 1:27 PM
in reply to: #1931800

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Pro
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Subject: RE: Stroke change that sped me up 15-20 sec per 100
Wow. Thats a dramatic improvement. You must be thrilled. Just goes to show you that technique is everything in the pool.
2009-01-27 1:29 PM
in reply to: #1931800

Master
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Subject: RE: Stroke change that sped me up 15-20 sec per 100
AWESOME!
2009-01-27 1:30 PM
in reply to: #1931800

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Coach
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Subject: RE: Stroke change that sped me up 15-20 sec per 100
I think what you were doing was correct but you were catching and pulling incorrectly. The change today allowed you to catch and pull better. IMO if you do what you where doing but try catching and pulling as you did today you could swim even faster. IOW enter water, reach as far in front and far as you can and then keeping high elbows immediately transition from fingers pointing in front and palm facing the bottom to the pool to fingers pointing down to bottom of the pool and palm facing back to the pool. See below or go to website:

 

Hope that helps!

2009-01-27 1:44 PM
in reply to: #1931800

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Master
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syracuse
Subject: RE: Stroke change that sped me up 15-20 sec per 100
when someone says don't "lead with the elbow" what does that mean...how does one lead with the elbow
2009-01-27 1:46 PM
in reply to: #1931839

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Sneaky Slow
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Subject: RE: Stroke change that sped me up 15-20 sec per 100
JorgeM - 2009-01-27 2:30 PM I think what you were doing was correct but you were catching and pulling incorrectly. The change today allowed you to catch and pull better. IMO if you do what you where doing but try catching and pulling as you did today you could swim even faster. IOW enter water, reach as far in front and far as you can and then keeping high elbows immediately transition from fingers pointing in front and palm facing the bottom to the pool to fingers pointing down to bottom of the pool and palm facing back to the pool. See below or go to website:

 

Hope that helps!

Thanks... will definitely try that out.  As I said, I know little about swim mechanics. 



2009-01-27 2:10 PM
in reply to: #1931800

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Pro
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Subject: RE: Stroke change that sped me up 15-20 sec per 100
The only suggestion I would make is to not bring the elbow up very high as it tends to wear your shoulder muscles out more quickly. For lack of a better explanation swoop your arm _around_ your side rather than _over_ the top of your shoulder. You may not be raising your arm that high, I just felt compelled to mention this before the movement starts to exaggerate in the wrong direction.
2009-01-27 2:48 PM
in reply to: #1931885

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Coach
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Subject: RE: Stroke change that sped me up 15-20 sec per 100

cusetri - 2009-01-27 1:44 PM when someone says don't "lead with the elbow" what does that mean...how does one lead with the elbow

Seat in a chair and with a desk in front of you; the extend your arm in front of you shoulder wide with your fingers point to the front and palm facing down to the desk. Now bring your palm to the desk keep it horizontal while keeping your finger pointing in front; if you that when swimming, that’s dropping or leading the elbow because as you do this movement your elbow gets closer to your body.

Now repeat seating, arm extended, etc, but now while keeping your arm and elbow high on the air make your fingers touch the desk; IOW make your fingers point down and your palm face towards you. That’s swimming with a high elbow.

To practice this: visualize that once your entered the water and reached as far as you can ahead of you, your arm is moving on the top of a barrel. Think about keeping your elbow high in the water, having your upper arm horizontal to the surface of the water while your fingers pint down and palm to the back and rotate your body to avoid putting too much strain on your shoulders.

Specific drills: swim with paddles for form not strength, one arm drill with opposite arm extended, one arm drill with opposite arm tucked next to your body, or ‘sawing machine’  (1) drill

(1) From Doug Stern - Sawing machine drill - Lie face down in the water with your arms in line with your shoulders and ninety degrees to your body. Bend your elbows ninety degrees so that your fingers are pointing to the bottom of the pool and your elbows are on the surface. Alternately lift one elbow at a time enough so that your fingers just some to the surface of the water. Do not move your arms forward or back just up and down. You can kick to that there is some forward movement. Wearing a snorkel is very helpful or turn your head to the side when you need to breathe.

When you have traveled half way down the pool gradually bring your arms forward and then back to the starting point. There is no backward component to this drill. Your finger tips are always pointing to the bottom of the pool. Remember to lift your elbow straight up and then forward. Your finger tips are barely leaving the water.

You will start to notice that your arms are moving very fast with little effort. Allow your arms to move forward to extension in this same manner. Keep the back end very short. Make no effort to extend your arms backward. Your arms will actually pull back as far as your hip without realizing it. From there your shoulder and elbow will take over and move up and forward. You are now swimming

2009-01-27 3:17 PM
in reply to: #1931800

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Master
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Subject: RE: Stroke change that sped me up 15-20 sec per 100

that was great.  I hope no one was watching.

best part, got swim lesson in 1.5 hours....get to try it out in the pool

 

thanks jorge!!

2009-01-28 2:35 PM
in reply to: #1931800

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Subject: RE: Stroke change that sped me up 15-20 sec per 100

Your former speed is exactly what mine is now.  I can't wait to try the higher elbow, greater-angle entry tomorrow morning.  Thanks for the tip!

2009-01-28 11:18 PM
in reply to: #1931800

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Expert
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Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Subject: RE: Stroke change that sped me up 15-20 sec per 100
Dang thats awesome. I might have to give this a shot, been hovering around 1:55 for months now...


2009-01-29 7:27 AM
in reply to: #1931800

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Stroke change that sped me up 15-20 sec per 100

Sweet!

I love reading about swim break throughs. Still waiting for mine after 6 years..hope one day I'll make a post like this.

2009-01-29 7:31 AM
in reply to: #1935137

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Stroke change that sped me up 15-20 sec per 100

Tried this out yesterday and did my first swim of any real length at sub 2:00/100, appreciate the info guys.

2009-01-29 10:16 AM
in reply to: #1931800

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Veteran
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Plano, Texas
Subject: RE: Stroke change that sped me up 15-20 sec per 100
What Jorge is discussing is also referred to as EVF...or Early Vertical Forearm. A self-explanatory term...get the forearm vertical as early in the pull as you can. And you do that by keeping the "high elbow" he mentions. You can find a lot of EVF stuff on this site and the web.
2009-01-29 10:23 AM
in reply to: #1931800

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Master
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Subject: RE: Stroke change that sped me up 15-20 sec per 100

You swimming in the same pool??!

This post is very timely for me, thanks!

2009-01-29 10:45 AM
in reply to: #1931800

Champion
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Subject: RE: Stroke change that sped me up 15-20 sec per 100
Nice work, Leafster!


2009-01-29 1:37 PM
in reply to: #1931800

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Elite
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Whispering Pines, North Carolina
Subject: RE: Stroke change that sped me up 15-20 sec per 100

Thanks for the tip...

i tried it out today during a short lunch swim. swam a medium effort swim testing this out and it was faster than my hard effort swim average of just 3 weeks ago. (still slow, but faster).  There is hope.

2009-01-30 12:47 AM
in reply to: #1931800

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Pro
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Subject: RE: Stroke change that sped me up 15-20 sec per 100
Would someone care to come swimming with me and show me this??? aquagirl could seriously use an increase in speed like this. Way to go.......
2009-01-30 5:50 AM
in reply to: #1936913

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Sneaky Slow
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Subject: RE: Stroke change that sped me up 15-20 sec per 100

aquagirl - 2009-01-30 1:47 AM Would someone care to come swimming with me and show me this??? aquagirl could seriously use an increase in speed like this. Way to go.......

I'd be more than happy to, but I live in Virginia, and I am thinking that's probably far removed from "The Land of Ice and Snow." 

2009-01-30 6:12 AM
in reply to: #1931839

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Subject: RE: Stroke change that sped me up 15-20 sec per 100
JorgeM - 2009-01-27 12:30 PM I think what you were doing was correct but you were catching and pulling incorrectly. The change today allowed you to catch and pull better. IMO if you do what you where doing but try catching and pulling as you did today you could swim even faster. IOW enter water, reach as far in front and far as you can and then keeping high elbows immediately transition from fingers pointing in front and palm facing the bottom to the pool to fingers pointing down to bottom of the pool and palm facing back to the pool. See below or go to website:

 

Hope that helps!

Tnx Jorge!  I learn much better by seeing how it's supposed to be done.  I noticed the elbow never gets very far from the surface of the water.  He doesn't bend at the wrist which I thought you were supposed to do.

2009-01-31 9:38 AM
in reply to: #1931800

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Expert
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Subject: RE: Stroke change that sped me up 15-20 sec per 100
Wow! That is a huge improvment!

I have the same problem with my arms hitting the water flat (and my 100 times are very simmilar to yours before the correction). I'll have to try that new approach. I had no idea it made such a huge difference. Thanks for the tip!


2009-01-31 10:16 AM
in reply to: #1931839

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Subject: RE: Stroke change that sped me up 15-20 sec per 100
JorgeM - 2009-01-27 1:30 PM I think what you were doing was correct but you were catching and pulling incorrectly. The change today allowed you to catch and pull better. IMO if you do what you where doing but try catching and pulling as you did today you could swim even faster. IOW enter water, reach as far in front and far as you can and then keeping high elbows immediately transition from fingers pointing in front and palm facing the bottom to the pool to fingers pointing down to bottom of the pool and palm facing back to the pool. See below or go to website:

 

Hope that helps!

Jorge (or any swim guru who wants to chime in),

I'm not a horrible swimmer (~1:40/100 in an HIM), but have been completely rebuilding my stroke from the ground up (Red Cross lifesaving swimmer, never on a swim team) and am one of the slowest in my Masters group, so lots of room for improvement.

I usually try to extend as far as I can and do the EVF thing as best I can, but decided to give Newleaf's suggestion a try the past few swims. Result seems to be as you described, it cuts to the chase on the catch and pull, picks up the cadence quite a bit. While I know it isn't a text book stroke, it really seems to be more efficient for me.

So by using this "short cut", are we going to be leaving efficiency on the table due to the loss of glide time that we'd normally get with the arm fully extended? It seems like there must be something that needs fixed in my transition from extension to EVF if I'm faster with less effort and a higher cadence with the short cut.

I guess the crossroads questions is whether to take the "free" speed now and work on incorporating the extension going forward or keep pursuing the text book form and avoid potentially picking up a bad habit that will cost speed in the long run?

2009-01-31 11:01 PM
in reply to: #1931800

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Subject: RE: Stroke change that sped me up 15-20 sec per 100
There really shouldn't be a glide in your stroke (too much energy wasted starting and stopping).  NL's tip is a very good one and one that can be built upon---when swimming freestyle/crawl you should "roll" your shoulders---that is to say that your body shouldn't just be flat in the water-the arm that is recovering (in the air) should have a high elbow and shoulder and your arm that is pulling should have a "low" shoulder---imagine that your body is on an axis (drive a metal rod through the center of you body from head to groin.....) and that you rotate on that axis...for a "slower" paced swim you will have more body roll while when sprinting you have less body roll.  You don't want to over do the body roll either!!  There are a couple of advantages to this while swimming---the roll helps to get a high elbow on the recovery arm without the shoulder damage/pain mentioned above while at the same time giving you a better reach once your hand has entered the water.  NL's approach angles seem about right---you want to put your hand in the water out in front of you but at a good angle so that you can "roll" the rest of your arm through the same "hole" in the water that your fingertips went in and then as you roll your body so that the opposite arm gets the high elbow/shoulder you are fully extending (gliding...) the pulling arm so that you can still get a good full/powerful stroke...................now that I'm sure that's clear as mud have fun with itLaughing
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