General Discussion Triathlon Talk » What am I doing wrong - swimming Rss Feed  
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2005-03-24 12:10 AM

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Subject: What am I doing wrong - swimming
OK, I am a slow swimmer, but I was making a decent progress after a few swimming lessons. I did straight 1,000yd at 2:04/100yd pace several weeks ago. Now it seems that I am not going anywhere and feel so unbalanced. Tonight 1000yd was at 2:10/100yd pace. I do drills (taught by the coach) and interval (i.e. 5x100 at 2:10). But I am not making any progress. Any suggestions/recommendations? Should I take another lesson?

Thanks,


2005-03-24 12:48 AM
in reply to: #133496

Elite
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Subject: RE: What am I doing wrong - swimming
how often do you swim?
2005-03-24 8:06 AM
in reply to: #133496

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Subject: RE: What am I doing wrong - swimming
I would suggest you take another lesson or two, particularly if you are feeling like you did before your last lessons. When I do adult lessons, I often will do a couple weeks of lessons, then give the athlete a few weeks to incorporate the changes. Pretty often, when I see them again, they have slipped back into their old habits. Swimming skills take practice and improvement will come if you are practicing the correct skill set, just takes a little time and patience.
2005-03-24 9:45 AM
in reply to: #133496

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Subject: RE: What am I doing wrong - swimming
First of all, I think you are doing well if you are swimming 20 minute 1000s. Keep up the great work!

Now, a straight 1000 yard swim is a long, hard swim. From one day to the next your finishing time for a 1000 yard swim will vary considerably, depending on a whole host of different factors too numerous to enumerate here. Don't get too caught up in the differences from one day to the next. Instead, you should look for a general trend in a downward direction.

Also, I don't think this is a very accurate way to measure your progress in developing speed. If you want a way to measure your speed progress in swimming, you might use regular time trials as your benchmark. Pick a distance that approximates the race(s) for which you are training. For example, if you are doing sprint triathlons, a 500 yd time trial would be a good choice for a time trial distance. Schedule a timed swim at this distance on a regular interval (maybe every month) and treat it like a race situation. In the day(s) leading up to the time trial do a little 'mini-taper' so that you are feeling good on time trial day. On time trial day, go to the pool, do a light warm-up set to loosen up and get your heart rate up. Take a few minutes rest, then swim the distance under the clock. Comparing your time trial results over a period of time will eliminate some of the variablitiy that you are seeing in your 1000 yd workout times.

In between time trials continue to do drills, focusing on your technique, and take classes (or get experienced swimmers or coaches to analyze your stroke). In swimming speed will come first by improving technique. You might even consider less distance in your workouts with a greater focus on technique and drillwork.

I love the following quote from Rich Strauss at cruciblefitness.com:

"Triathlon Swimming....

1. Requires that the athlete develop skills and technique first, then acquire swimming fitness.

2. Requires an extensive period of laser-like focus applied to improving technique, at the expense of training volume.

3. This is counter-intuitive to bike and run, hard pill to swallow."

--excerpt from article at http://www.cruciblefitness.com/etips/Swim_Clinic_Talking_Notes.htm
2005-03-24 9:49 AM
in reply to: #133530

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Subject: RE: What am I doing wrong - swimming
Hermom - 2005-03-24 5:06 AM

Pretty often, when I see them again, they have slipped back into their old habits.


Right on, I never go more than 2 weeks between lessons, my gains don't always consolidate. One lesson straightens me out so I can practice again with fresh form memory....once I have learned something and I do slip back I can usually recapture it quickly....swimming does require intense frequent repetition though, taking a week off or so is not a good idea, at least not for me...
2005-03-24 9:58 AM
in reply to: #133496

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Champion
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Subject: RE: What am I doing wrong - swimming
Patience ... just keep concentrating on your swimming technique and eventually you will see improvement, in small increments mind you but improvement nonetheless.  And by the way, your swim times are pretty darned good as they are! 


2005-03-24 12:28 PM
in reply to: #133496

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Subject: RE: What am I doing wrong - swimming
I am right with you. Why is it my times vary so much in the pool. Last week I swam 3x500y (9:20, 9:14, 9:11). Great! Finally progress. It is normally (9:45ish).

Today I got in the pool and swam about 9:45ish again. What's up?

I try not to think about it to much. I get in the pool and do the routine and get out and hope for the best on race day.

I was so proud of my 9:11 500y that I shared it with one of my cross country runners who also swims. She said she swam 500y at the District swim meet in 6:07. I also found out that her 14 yr old sister just swam a 5:19 500m. SMOKING!

It is easy to get frustrated, but my thoughts are just keep doing it and break throughs will happen.

Good luck,

Randy
2005-03-24 12:37 PM
in reply to: #133687

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Subject: RE: What am I doing wrong - swimming
I am not worried about swim times, just want to get througth it without exhausting myself, and be somewhere in the pack. Your total elapsed time is less affected by swim times compared to running and riding which make up the bulk. If swim times ever do end up materially affecting my overall time, I will be very happy. It's a bit like paying a lot of taxes, you first need to make a lot of money, good problem to have.
2005-03-24 1:13 PM
in reply to: #133496

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Subject: RE: What am I doing wrong - swimming

So what do you guys think is a good drill to increase speed.  I just did a 2k swim in my recent triathlon but my time was slow.  Now that I know I can do the distance, I'll start focusing on speed/time/form, etc.. 

What drill you recommend to increase speed?

2005-03-24 2:05 PM
in reply to: #133496

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Subject: RE: What am I doing wrong - swimming
If I had your kind of slow swimming speed, I'd be happy! I swam a mile this morning in 48:10...That's almost 3:00 per 100. Talk about cold molasses in the wintertime!

My consolation is that I can do that pace forever and 3 days.

2005-03-24 2:26 PM
in reply to: #133496

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Subject: RE: What am I doing wrong - swimming
You got some good replies on this - some are ok and some are not so good. The key things to swimming better are: technique and frequency in the beginning. BUT, I still think you should throw in some faster sets of 25s and 50s to give you a feel of 'power' in the water.

I think doing long TTs are good, b/c as you progress you will see that you are able to 'hold' your stroke together longer - at first it might be 500 yards and the next time it might be 700 yards etc.

I hope this helps you. Remember technique and frequency!



2005-03-24 2:28 PM
in reply to: #133744

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Subject: RE: What am I doing wrong - swimming
Work on your pull. You are dropping your elbow and aren't getting a catch in your swim stroke. I can tell you that b/c 98% of all triathletes do it. Even the faster guys. I swam 58:xx at IMNZ and I still drop one elbow - so work on swimming with the fist drill. Swim 4 strokes closed 4 fist, 4 strokes open fist. Do sets of 4-12 x 50 yards and then swim 4-12 x 50 normal, and see if it makes a difference. I bet it does.

2005-03-24 4:02 PM
in reply to: #133496

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Subject: RE: What am I doing wrong - swimming
Thank you all so very much for your replies. I swim 2-3times a week. I couldn't run for a while because an injury and I was focusing on my swimming (3-4/wk) that is when I made good progress. I am pretty sure my bad habits are back - so I will go back to my swimming coach!

I do a time trial just to see where I am, but it is 100yd, instead of 500yd or longer (I am training for Olympic distance, 1500m). My fastest is 1:43 several weeks ago. My most recent one, 1:49. I was so discouraged. Well, enough of whining. Again, thanks!!

See Mom Run
2005-03-24 4:08 PM
in reply to: #133809

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Subject: RE: What am I doing wrong - swimming
Congrats! A 100 in 1:43 is great but it doesn't tell a lot about your fitness for 1500. That is a big difference. I would advise doing longer TTs - that way on race day you have done a few 1500 TTs and know what it's like to swim that hard for that long.

You wouldn't run a 10k without running the distance a few times right? Same principle.

Good Luck.
2005-03-24 4:10 PM
in reply to: #133763

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Subject: RE: What am I doing wrong - swimming
mikericci - 2005-03-24 1:28 PM

Work on your pull. You are dropping your elbow and aren't getting a catch in your swim stroke. I can tell you that b/c 98% of all triathletes do it. Even the faster guys. I swam 58:xx at IMNZ and I still drop one elbow - so work on swimming with the fist drill. Swim 4 strokes closed 4 fist, 4 strokes open fist. Do sets of 4-12 x 50 yards and then swim 4-12 x 50 normal, and see if it makes a difference. I bet it does.



What does it mean when one drops one's elbow? You mean pick it up too soon?
2005-03-24 4:13 PM
in reply to: #133690

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Subject: RE: What am I doing wrong - swimming
us50090 - 2005-03-24 12:37 PM

I am not worried about swim times, just want to get througth it without exhausting myself, and be somewhere in the pack. Your total elapsed time is less affected by swim times compared to running and riding which make up the bulk. If swim times ever do end up materially affecting my overall time, I will be very happy. It's a bit like paying a lot of taxes, you first need to make a lot of money, good problem to have.


I see what you are saying. The thing is, right now I am recovering very slowly from my hip injury (running) and I can't do as much as running/biking, especially speedwork. So naturally my focus is on my swimming time. I know improving one minute in the total swim time is so much more difficult than getting that much from running/biking.


2005-03-24 4:21 PM
in reply to: #133813

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Subject: RE: What am I doing wrong - swimming
As you enter the water with your hand, wrist, and forearm all in a 90 degree angle, picture yourself reaching over a 50 gallon barrel rolled up against a wall. Now reach OVER that barrel and pull it back toward you, using your forearm - keeping your elbow as high as you can. This is your 'catch' - most of us drop the elbow, and try to 'pull' water back with our hand - and the elbow actually leads the way. Look at the size of your hand and then look at the size of your hand and forearm - see which one has more surface area? Obviously your hand and forearm, and therefore that is what you want to leverage in the water and pull yourself through the water. Sounds simple, but it's pretty tough for some of us.

Make Sense?
2005-03-24 4:25 PM
in reply to: #133690

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Subject: RE: What am I doing wrong - swimming
" am not worried about swim times, just want to get througth it without exhausting myself, and be somewhere in the pack. Your total elapsed time is less affected by swim times compared to running and riding which make up the bulk. If swim times ever do end up materially affecting my overall time, I will be very happy. It's a bit like paying a lot of taxes, you first need to make a lot of money, good problem to have."


Somewhat true statement and it depends on what your race goals are. If you want to be at the front of your AG, you need to swim at the front, no question about it.

If you want to improve your bike and run performance, then spend more time in the water. If you get out of the water in the same time as you did last year, but are much fresher, then that energy can now go into your bike and run - so I think swim times do materially affect your overall times, no question. Become a fit swimmer, and see how much easier those last few miles of the run become, or see how much quicker you can run them.



Edited by mikericci 2005-03-24 4:28 PM
2005-03-24 10:36 PM
in reply to: #133496

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Subject: RE: What am I doing wrong - swimming
I'm still relatively new at swimming - but I've been swimming consistently since the Fall. i went through a similar phase a month or two ago. Seemed like I was making decent progress, then all of a sudden I was so uncoordinated in the water. Everything was a struggle. So, I re-read my Total Immersion book and next time at the pool, all I did was their drills. No worries about time, or how far or anything, just drills. And you know what, since then, not only have overcome my uncoordination, but I've been swimming better - my strokes per length have decreased from 19-20 down to 15-17. Something really clicked.

So maybe it's just a "plateau" or a sign to take a little break from it.
2005-03-24 10:52 PM
in reply to: #133969

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Subject: RE: What am I doing wrong - swimming
Have your TT times improved?
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