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2009-03-12 3:10 PM

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Elite
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Subject: How often do you train at race pace?

I know there is currently another thread asking about tempo runs, but I'm curious how often (if ever) people will train at their estimated race pace for that distance.  i.e.  Will you go out and train at a 5:00min/km pace for 10km if you believe your will race will be a 50min 10K?

I'm beginning to understand running slower than anticipated race pace, but in addition are there merits to train at a race intensity level - for the same duration of the race - rather than just at intervals or "slightly slower" than race pace.



2009-03-12 3:14 PM
in reply to: #2014107

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Not a Coach
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Subject: RE: How often do you train at race pace?
Yes, there are benefits to training at race pace.  But if you are doing it for "the same duration of the race", then you are racing.  
2009-03-12 3:14 PM
in reply to: #2014107

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Master
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Subject: RE: How often do you train at race pace?
It depends on the length of the race. Very seldom do I train at race pace for the race distance. I do have a lot of speedwork in my normal training, but they are short in duration normally. My coach likes to mix things up a bit. For example, during a 20 mile long run training for a marathon, she will have me do my intervals (normally 3 X 1 mile hard, one mile ez or 2 X 3 mile hard with one mile ez between) in the middle or second half of the run....
2009-03-12 3:15 PM
in reply to: #2014107

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Cycling Guru
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Subject: RE: How often do you train at race pace?

Rarely ever.

Before my 1/2 marathon at the beginning of the month I did one track workout (intervals slightly above 5k pace) and a few tempo runs which were at my 1/2 pace.

For a 10k or 5k I will almost never train at pace.  And not many people would call my splits slow .........

2009-03-12 3:17 PM
in reply to: #2014107

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Resident Curmudgeon
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Subject: RE: How often do you train at race pace?

Depends on the length of the race. My last one was a duathlon with 2-mile runs on each in that I ran <7:10. I don't know if I ever trained at that pace or faster. so in that case, never.

I'm training for a marathon, next Monday's long run calls for 15 miles with 12 at race pace (9minutes for me) . Tomorrow I'm slated for 11 miles with six at tempo pace (8:30). So in this case, quite a bit.

2009-03-12 3:20 PM
in reply to: #2014107

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2009-03-12 3:26 PM
in reply to: #2014107

Master
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Subject: RE: How often do you train at race pace?
Outside of intervals, never.
2009-03-12 3:28 PM
in reply to: #2014107

Elite
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Subject: RE: How often do you train at race pace?
But if you only train at race pace in intervals - how does your body adapt to allow you to go the full distance at that intensity?
2009-03-12 3:36 PM
in reply to: #2014183

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Subject: RE: How often do you train at race pace?
GoFaster - 2009-03-12 2:28 PM

But if you only train at race pace in intervals - how does your body adapt to allow you to go the full distance at that intensity?

My guess, specific adaptations. Doing some shorter work at race pace is good to learn race pace. Going the distance, or the time, is also good for durability, at least for less than marathon distances, but it doesn't have to be at race pace.
2009-03-12 3:47 PM
in reply to: #2014107

Champion
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Subject: RE: How often do you train at race pace?

My focus is on sprint and OD racing and here is the rough breakdown of what I have been doing since November (following Daniels):

E pace - about 50%
M pace - about 40%
T pace - about 10%

With the exception of the past two weeks (recovery focus following a training camp) I've been running 50-65km/week.  The only time I've been at race pace has been for two 5km TT's (team requirement) and a Leger-Boucher test during the camp (about 14km total since November).

As the season approaches I will do short intervals faster than race pace (200-400m) and slightly longer intervals a little faster than race pace (400-1200m); this will comprise no more than 5-7% of my weekly running volume.

Shane

2009-03-12 3:54 PM
in reply to: #2014183

Cycling Guru
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Subject: RE: How often do you train at race pace?

GoFaster - 2009-03-12 4:28 PM But if you only train at race pace in intervals - how does your body adapt to allow you to go the full distance at that intensity?

Your body does not "need to adapt" to harder paces.  Your mind does though.  and that can be handled through rare occassional work at faster pace ... or by simply racing more.

Going fast for anything a 1/2 marathon or less is mostly mental.  If you understand the sort of pace you "should" be able to hold based on indicators through training and previous races then you are physically capable to hit that assuming you've trained appropriate distances.  (I.E. - you are not going to be able to run a fast 1/2 if you have not trained longer than 4 or 5 miles at a time even if you have the pace down in those runs).



2009-03-12 3:57 PM
in reply to: #2014107

Runner
Subject: RE: How often do you train at race pace?

I wonder if part of this is the idea of "anticipated race pace".

Selecting a goal race pace can be a tricky thing.

2009-03-12 4:03 PM
in reply to: #2014270

Expert
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Subject: RE: How often do you train at race pace?
Daremo - 2009-03-12 4:54 PM

GoFaster - 2009-03-12 4:28 PM But if you only train at race pace in intervals - how does your body adapt to allow you to go the full distance at that intensity?

Your body does not "need to adapt" to harder paces.  Your mind does though.  and that can be handled through rare occassional work at faster pace ... or by simply racing more.

Going fast for anything a 1/2 marathon or less is mostly mental.  If you understand the sort of pace you "should" be able to hold based on indicators through training and previous races then you are physically capable to hit that assuming you've trained appropriate distances.  (I.E. - you are not going to be able to run a fast 1/2 if you have not trained longer than 4 or 5 miles at a time even if you have the pace down in those runs).

 

I wish I could find the journal article, but the olympic track (bike) team did the bulk of their training at low intensity, close to 90%, and those guys are basically sprinters.  I think rowers do the same sort of thing, along with speed skaters, maybe not 90%, but a majority of the time is at the low/moderate pace. 

2009-03-12 5:19 PM
in reply to: #2014284

Master
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Subject: RE: How often do you train at race pace?
Scout7 - 2009-03-12 1:57 PM

I wonder if part of this is the idea of "anticipated race pace".

Selecting a goal race pace can be a tricky thing.

 

x 2, and to tie into what Daremo was saying about it being mental - that is totally true.  i see a lot of people saying how they can run xx pace for xx miles, and they want to race farther at a similar pace.  i think this puts you into a mental block that you cannot go faster, when you actually can.  . maybe it is just my race approach of go hard, survive, and die at the end. . 

for my last race (1/2 marathon), i had done some training runs around 6:45 min/mile but only 3-5 miles. . come race day, i held 6:34 avg. did i have a plan for pacing? no.  Would i have done better if i would have?  who knows, maybe, maybe not

i think going out there and only knowing my splits when i hit mile markers (5k turn, 10k turn etc), helped me to go out and do my best, not worry about staying on pace. . 



Edited by ultrahip_00 2009-03-12 5:21 PM
2009-03-12 5:28 PM
in reply to: #2014440

Elite
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Subject: RE: How often do you train at race pace?
ultrahip_00 - 2009-03-12 6:19 PM
Scout7 - 2009-03-12 1:57 PM

I wonder if part of this is the idea of "anticipated race pace".

Selecting a goal race pace can be a tricky thing.

 

x 2, and to tie into what Daremo was saying about it being mental - that is totally true.  i see a lot of people saying how they can run xx pace for xx miles, and they want to race farther at a similar pace.  i think this puts you into a mental block that you cannot go faster, when you actually can.  . maybe it is just my race approach of go hard, survive, and die at the end. . 

for my last race (1/2 marathon), i had done some training runs around 6:45 min/mile but only 3-5 miles. . come race day, i held 6:34 avg. did i have a plan for pacing? no.  Would i have done better if i would have?  who knows, maybe, maybe not

i think going out there and only knowing my splits when i hit mile markers (5k turn, 10k turn etc), helped me to go out and do my best, not worry about staying on pace. . 

I guess this is one of my other questions - how fast can you really go?  I don't get very many opportunities to race, so I wonder a bit if I'm short changing myself on just how fast I can go (or if I actually go too fast when training).

2009-03-12 6:24 PM
in reply to: #2014107

Expert
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Subject: RE: How often do you train at race pace?
I never train at race pace. The only time I run at race pace is during a race. However, I race very often - about 40 running races last year. I'm fortunate to live in an area that has many inexpensive - sometimes free - races all year. I doubt I could push myself as hard in a training run as I do in a race and I use all this racing as my form of speedwork. Racing often also helps develop the mental stamina needed to keep pushing when you want to quit.


2009-03-12 7:11 PM
in reply to: #2014183

Champion
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Subject: RE: How often do you train at race pace?
GoFaster - 2009-03-12 3:28 PM

But if you only train at race pace in intervals - how does your body adapt to allow you to go the full distance at that intensity?


I will train race pace during tempo efforts as well which can last up to 20-30min. That's going to be Olympic or long course pacing, but more than a 5min interval.


..and I'll just go ahead and call Rick's splits slow.

Edited by bryancd 2009-03-12 7:12 PM
2009-03-12 7:32 PM
in reply to: #2014107

Cycling Guru
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Subject: RE: How often do you train at race pace?

I wouldn't expect anything less from you!

Cool

2009-03-12 7:50 PM
in reply to: #2014107

Fishers, IN
Subject: RE: How often do you train at race pace?
I do not think many are race ready year round.  You, at least I, can't handle it mentally as much as physically-that is a key to peaking.  Early on, just good mileage.  As time progresses you get more race specific.  Generally you do not want the first time you experience race pace during the goal race.  Hence, I think the best thing to do is get a fair number of minutes above and below race pace and the vast majority at ~ 1min/mi or so slower.  As I get close to goal race, I will usually try to run a shorter race that is a significant percentage (maybe 60-70%) or in the case of a whole marathon I will hit a 15K or half marathon and of course exceed goal race pace.  Most of that is with the objective of pushing your lactate threshold up to being closer to your VO2max.  As has been pointed out, it is as much for developing mental toughness as anything else. 

Edited by rc63413 2009-03-12 7:52 PM
2009-03-12 9:30 PM
in reply to: #2014183

Master
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Subject: RE: How often do you train at race pace?

GoFaster - 2009-03-12 2:28 PM But if you only train at race pace in intervals - how does your body adapt to allow you to go the full distance at that intensity?

 Are you asking what physical adaptations your body goes through to allow you to run a specific distance at a certain speed?  For example someone has a goal of running a 5K in say 20:00 (6:27 mile pace) yet can only currently do one mile at that pace. Your body does go through physical changes to allow you to run faster, farther or both. Intervals are just one form of training used to get you to your goal and serve a specific function in a training program. I only ask this cause I only see examples of what people do and not a specific answer to your question.

2009-03-13 1:20 AM
in reply to: #2014107

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Subject: RE: How often do you train at race pace?

I am using the FIRST training program for a 25k in May and all of my tempo runs 3-6 miles are at below race pace.  My race pace is 8:16 and my long TEMPO pace is 8:14.  My long runs are at 8:36 to 8:46 for up to 15 miles.  For what it's worth. 



2009-03-13 8:09 AM
in reply to: #2014949

Elite
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Subject: RE: How often do you train at race pace?
gerald12 - 2009-03-12 10:30 PM

GoFaster - 2009-03-12 2:28 PM But if you only train at race pace in intervals - how does your body adapt to allow you to go the full distance at that intensity?

 Are you asking what physical adaptations your body goes through to allow you to run a specific distance at a certain speed?  For example someone has a goal of running a 5K in say 20:00 (6:27 mile pace) yet can only currently do one mile at that pace. Your body does go through physical changes to allow you to run faster, farther or both. Intervals are just one form of training used to get you to your goal and serve a specific function in a training program. I only ask this cause I only see examples of what people do and not a specific answer to your question.

I think that is part of my question - will running intervals and long slow runs, allow your body to adapt so that you become faster.  If I can currently run a 4:20 pace for a 5K but want to be able to run a 4:00 pace, how specifically do I need to train to accomplish that?

2009-03-13 8:33 AM
in reply to: #2014107

Cycling Guru
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Subject: RE: How often do you train at race pace?
Run lots, run often, run varried terrain.  It is really that simple!
2009-03-13 8:34 AM
in reply to: #2014107

Coach
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Subject: RE: How often do you train at race pace?
GoFaster - 2009-03-12 3:10 PM

I know there is currently another thread asking about tempo runs, but I'm curious how often (if ever) people will train at their estimated race pace for that distance.  i.e.  Will you go out and train at a 5:00min/km pace for 10km if you believe your will race will be a 50min 10K?

I'm beginning to understand running slower than anticipated race pace, but in addition are there merits to train at a race intensity level - for the same duration of the race - rather than just at intervals or "slightly slower" than race pace.

 For my athletes I have them do so like 1-2x week during the specific phase (8-6 weeks prior their A race) to produce the specific adaptations they'll need on race day. For all 3 sports I'll break down their sessions so they do either intervals at race pace or straight efforts. However for running I limit the duration of those to 50-60% of the goal distance and only do long race pace sessions once or twice during the cycle. those are more like race rehearsal to test pacing and nutrition (i.e. 15 mi @ race pace for a marathon). Samples of race pace sessions during the specific phase for a 70.3 race:

  • swim - 4x500 or 2k OWS at race pace
  • bike - for a 2:30 hr ride, do 45-60 min at race pace
  • run - do 8x1 mile or run 6 Mi at race pace
  • rehearsal - swim 1k all @ race pace + ride 2 hrs (1 hr @ race pace) + run 5 Mi all at race pace.

It is very important to set up goals and training levels based on your current fitness levels; that is you test where you are today and off of that you set up goals to improve. as your fitness increases you test again and adjust levels and goals accordingly. But, you do not set up goals of what you think or want to do and train off of that; chances are you don't have the fitness and it wil be a sure way to get yourself injured. Specific to your question, *IF* you believe you can run a 10K on 50 min, test 1st to see if given your fitness your have the potential to do so and do the training. Check this blog I wrote abour running race pace, it might help.

2009-03-13 11:56 AM
in reply to: #2014107

Extreme Veteran
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Subject: RE: How often do you train at race pace?
Only when my coach makes me - which is not very often.  Whew.
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