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2009-03-17 10:07 PM

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Subject: pacing hilly courses
how do you pace power wise a very hilly course (the one coming to mind is the american TTT)

something that is up and down the whole way.

thanks!


2009-03-18 6:28 AM
in reply to: #2024515

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Subject: RE: pacing hilly courses
David, that is a hard question.  The best thing is to try to race or do a very hard run on a similar course.  Practice on hills as much as possible.  If it is a 5k, you just give it your all.-just try not to burn up the legs too much on the uphills.  If it is a 15K or so, I would keep an eye on my heart rate (by feel or HRM) and try not to spike it up too high on the uphills and would fly the down hills. 
2009-03-18 10:18 AM
in reply to: #2024515

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Subject: RE: pacing hilly courses

Very roughly:

Flats & slight incline/decline = +/- goal watts
Long hills = goal watts + 5-10%
Short hills (say 30"-60" = goal watts + 10-15%

Minimize bursts at FT or higher to a bare minimum.

Basically, recognize you will (and should) go harder up the hills but keep it under control as a relatively "steadier" ride is usually better.

 

Edit:  Also, remember regarding your question from yesterday, your goal watts on a hillier course will likely be lower than a flat one since you will be out there longer.  So remember to adjust that as well.



Edited by JohnnyKay 2009-03-18 10:33 AM
2009-03-18 10:30 AM
in reply to: #2024515

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Subject: RE: pacing hilly courses

My first HIM was on a totally hilly ride, I was great for the first 40 miles..... well I thought I was.  Probably dialing it back 5 to 10 percent effort would have made the next 16 miles go better.  Live and learn. 

2009-03-18 2:05 PM
in reply to: #2025245

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Subject: RE: pacing hilly courses
JohnnyKay - 2009-03-18 11:18 AM

Very roughly:

Flats & slight incline/decline = +/- goal watts
Long hills = goal watts + 5-10%
Short hills (say 30"-60") = goal watts + 10-15%

Minimize bursts at FT or higher to a bare minimum.

Basically, recognize you will (and should) go harder up the hills but keep it under control as a relatively "steadier" ride is usually better.

 

Edit:  Also, remember regarding your question from yesterday, your goal watts on a hillier course will likely be lower than a flat one since you will be out there longer.  So remember to adjust that as well.




thats what i was thinking, at or just over FTP on the nasty stuff, the rest (for the race in question), down around tempo, and let the downhills take care of themselves.

2009-03-19 7:48 AM
in reply to: #2024515

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Subject: RE: pacing hilly courses

FTP = how fast you can go, CTL = how long you can go fast

I have a very low CTL, as a result I try to stay under FTP as much as possible, even on the hills. If I put in the volume some of you guys did, I'd try to follow something similar to what JK laid out. I use how I feel at the end of my regular long ride as a guideline. Starting out, I always feel like I've gotten a 25 watt boost to my FTP since the last ride... by mile 40 I've been brought down to earth. If you can find similar terrain, just do a lower L3 ride (average), see how you feel. 



2009-03-19 10:48 AM
in reply to: #2027229

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Subject: RE: pacing hilly courses
lrobb - 2009-03-19 8:48 AM

FTP = how fast you can go, CTL = how long you can go fast

I have a very low CTL, as a result I try to stay under FTP as much as possible, even on the hills. If I put in the volume some of you guys did, I'd try to follow something similar to what JK laid out. I use how I feel at the end of my regular long ride as a guideline. Starting out, I always feel like I've gotten a 25 watt boost to my FTP since the last ride... by mile 40 I've been brought down to earth. If you can find similar terrain, just do a lower L3 ride (average), see how you feel. 

I'm not sure what you are saying. 

FTP = steady state power you can hold without fatiguing for about 1 hour
CTL = chronic (long term) training load

So, I think you're saying that you don't train much (low CTL) and, therefore try to stay under FTP as much as possible.  I'm not sure that the former has much to do with the latter (other than you will have a lower FTP if you don't train much).  In a HIM, I stay under FTP as much as possible no matter what my CTL happens to be.  Am I missing something?

2009-03-19 1:14 PM
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Subject: RE: pacing hilly courses

great question

So I am wondering this also. I rode yesterday and I always here try to keep your watts as steady as possible but I am not sure how to do this on a hilly course.

For example, my FTP is 264. On the hills I am over 300 watts going 11mph but then on the downhills that lead into flats I am going 110-130 watts at 30+ mph on the downhill and 25 mph in the flats that follow.

 

2009-03-19 1:36 PM
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Subject: RE: pacing hilly courses
JohnnyKay - 2009-03-19 10:48 AM 

 Am I missing something?

That's a saying from Rick Murphy or Dr. Coggan on the wattage list. CTL is basically your fitness in the "fitness+freshness=form" part of PMC formula.

Same principle behind using the running time prediction calculators (McMillan/Daniels)... Just because you've ran a fast 5k, that doesn't mean you'll meet your predicted marathon time if you're not putting in the miles. 

What percentage of FTP you can hold, is determined by how fit you are.  Have a lot of miles in your legs? You should probably be pushing an IF of ~.87... Low volume trainer? Probably down around an IF of ~.82.

 

 

 

 

 

2009-03-19 2:10 PM
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Subject: RE: pacing hilly courses

I'm not sure what you are saying.

 

Sorry, apparently netiher did I!
 
 A lot of people advocate going to FTP and slightly above on climbs. That what I was referring to when I said I tried to stay well under FTP, and I erroneously thought that was what you were referring to. 
 
2009-03-19 3:13 PM
in reply to: #2028343

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Subject: RE: pacing hilly courses
OK, I got it now too. 


2009-03-19 3:17 PM
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Subject: RE: pacing hilly courses
Shermbelle - 2009-03-19 2:14 PM

great question

So I am wondering this also. I rode yesterday and I always here try to keep your watts as steady as possible but I am not sure how to do this on a hilly course.

For example, my FTP is 264. On the hills I am over 300 watts going 11mph but then on the downhills that lead into flats I am going 110-130 watts at 30+ mph on the downhill and 25 mph in the flats that follow.

 

At least for a long course race, if those hills are very long you will likely end up in trouble.  Go up slower--get more gears, if necessary.  On the downhills, there's no reason to try chasing watts once you get to maybe the low-mid 30s as it won't gain you much speed.

2009-03-19 3:30 PM
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Subject: RE: pacing hilly courses
My one and only HIM was a hilly bike course and I cramped on the run. So don't ask me. It didn't feel hard on the bike, so it's tricky.
2009-03-19 7:36 PM
in reply to: #2028535

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Subject: RE: pacing hilly courses
the very reason i ask!
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