General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Cross Fit, the new fast?!?!? Rss Feed  
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2009-04-09 9:45 AM

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Coach
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Subject: Cross Fit, the new fast?!?!?

This AM I read this "interview"  and realized I have to forget everything I've learned so far about sport physiology/endurance training and become a certified cross fit trainer to have a clue as to what I am talking about and have the knowledge to be able to help guys like Macca win Kona! It seems I'll need to forget about concepts such as specificity and periodization and incorporate lots of anaerobic efforts including lots of weight training! uummmm anyone know where I can sign up to become a cross fit trainer?

About the interview; the guy has a point with the diet and "slow distance regime" but I think he gets confused making those points. When designing a training plan the load doesn't have to be and either or approach; IOW you don’t have to exclusively focus on volume or intensity but a mix and it has to be based on the athlete's needs, strengths, goals, schedule, etc. You also can address different adaptations during the none-specific phase and then progress towards the specific training required for the athlete’s main event.

He also seems misinformed; there are studies in which it is been demostrated at what training intensities (pace/power) certain adaptations are maximized i.e. slow twitch fibers are maximally trained at an intensity of ~83% of VO2max (Dudley 1982, Lenao 2003), hence we use training levels. Also there are studies in which an increase in volume and training at 60%> of VO2max can produce and improve certain training adaptations (increase LT, VO2, etc); the caveat is that you need to more of it (Harms and Hickson 1983, Lucia 2000). Also there are studies suggesting some anaerobic training can improve performance (Essen 1978, Billat 1999, Seiler 2001) this type of training has to be specific and as with everything it won’t be applicable to everyone and it certainly doesn't mean that pumping iron will benefit your sport specific performance.

Anyway, IMO it is easy to talk big but IMO the best way to support your ideas as a coach is via your athletes results. Also, it is easy to claim you can help average untrained individuals because their lack of specific training will allow them to improve with ANY training (even by parking the car at the far end of the all and walk more) but it gets more challenging once you deal with more trained athletes whose gains will be much less and will require that much more work.

Notice - this is not a jab at crossfit but a critique of the premise the guy in the interview suggests. For what I’ve read about cross fit they have a good concept for an specific niche in the market and even some of its concepts could be used by some endurance athletes as a way to compliment (not replace) some training, however I’ll have to remain skeptic with the ambitious statement this guy is making until there is actual both scientific and anecdotal evidence for it or have Macca win Kona again under his plan



2009-04-09 9:50 AM
in reply to: #2073577

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Cycling Guru
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Subject: RE: Cross Fit, the new fast?!?!?
Careful, there are a lot of avid cross-fitters on BT that seem to perceive it is the greatest thing since sliced bread.  Don't step on anyone's toes .....

Sealed
2009-04-09 10:00 AM
in reply to: #2073577

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Cross Fit, the new fast?!?!?
  Hopefully I can keep TTMA from reading this.  I feel another argument coming on.  Thanks Jorge! 
2009-04-09 10:05 AM
in reply to: #2073577

Veteran
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Subject: RE: Cross Fit, the new fast?!?!?
I can't knock the guy, he's very accomplished, but the way he is suggesting some things, you'd think he either has been or has trained several elite level triathletes... 11:xx is very respectable for an ironman, but the winners are much faster, no?
2009-04-09 10:14 AM
in reply to: #2073577

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Expert
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Subject: RE: Cross Fit, the new fast?!?!?
I don't know that he's misinformed. I think he's trying to make a brand for himself and offering a type of training that is much different while throwing in some statements for shock value. I think he's way out in left field, but there will be the folks who really like lifting weights and don't especially like putting in the miles, so they will gravitate to him. Would Macca approach a 3:45 marathoner for running advice? unlikely. It looks more like a boot camp type of training program, and some people prefer that.
2009-04-09 10:25 AM
in reply to: #2073577

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New Haven, CT
Subject: RE: Cross Fit, the new fast?!?!?
Jorge, I would add "classics" such as Lydiard and Maffetone to your list of studies.  Also, if strength training an aneorbic work were a substitute for LSD work, etc. I'd be a a lot faster.  I spent much of the first 25 years of life in aneorbics sports and weight training (football, basketball, rugby).  IMO, it seems that this is more of a crossfit marketing brochure than anything else.  I am not saying anything negative about crossfit either (I incorporate many exercises into my routines). 



2009-04-09 10:52 AM
in reply to: #2073682

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Cross Fit, the new fast?!?!?

tjfry - 2009-04-09 10:14 AMWould Macca approach a 3:45 marathoner for running advice? unlikely.

His time below was posted on Slowtwitch.com:

MacKenzie, Brian 12/17/40 29/M25-29 00:57:59 05:31:55 04:57:34 11:33:47 

So try a 4:57 marathoner....

 

Overall I think that Crossfit is a great system for overall fitness.  The workouts are short and intense.  They've also marketed the brand well and the crossfit "cult" seems to be fiercely loyal.  An 11:33 IM isn't even close to being fast enough for me to start listening to his advice on endurance training.  And he's criticizing Macca?!?!?

However, if your goal is to get faster in triathlon, then it seems like specificity goes a long way. 

2009-04-09 11:03 AM
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Subject: RE: Cross Fit, the new fast?!?!?
AndrewMT - 2009-04-09 10:52 AM

tjfry - 2009-04-09 10:14 AMWould Macca approach a 3:45 marathoner for running advice? unlikely.

His time below was posted on Slowtwitch.com:

MacKenzie, Brian 12/17/40 29/M25-29 00:57:59 05:31:55 04:57:34 11:33:47 

So try a 4:57 marathoner....

 

Overall I think that Crossfit is a great system for overall fitness.  The workouts are short and intense.  They've also marketed the brand well and the crossfit "cult" seems to be fiercely loyal.  An 11:33 IM isn't even close to being fast enough for me to start listening to his advice on endurance training.  And he's criticizing Macca?!?!?

However, if your goal is to get faster in triathlon, then it seems like specificity goes a long way. 



Sorry, I meant pure marathon time, not IM marathon. I pulled him up on athlinks.
2009-04-09 11:08 AM
in reply to: #2073577

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Cross Fit, the new fast?!?!?
I am not defending CrossFit, but folks should be very clear; it is not just "pumping iron" as some have suggested. Yes, they do a lot of strength training but it is not your traditional approach to lifting either. Body builders and "weight lifters" also have issues with CrossFit. Again, I am not defending it, just don't want those who are not as informed to get the wrong idea.
2009-04-09 11:31 AM
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Elite
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Subject: RE: Cross Fit, the new fast?!?!?
Yeah, he makes a couple of decent points, but he completely lost me when he said it would take him 2 or 3 years to get Macca to the point where he could even train him.
2009-04-09 11:40 AM
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Cycling Guru
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Subject: RE: Cross Fit, the new fast?!?!?
Ugh, I actually clicked on the link and read it ........

I think I'm gonna puke.

Yell


2009-04-09 11:44 AM
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Master
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Subject: RE: Cross Fit, the new fast?!?!?

Anybody criticizing an IM world champion loses all credibility in my book. He sounds like an arm chair quarterback. When he goes to Kona and competes with Macca in his world and puts up a better or comparable time then maybe I'll listen to his advice. 11:30:xx is a decent time and I'd be happy with it but it in no way gives you the "expertise" to advise an IM world champion.

2009-04-09 11:50 AM
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Cycling Guru
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Subject: RE: Cross Fit, the new fast?!?!?
I'd start to take a little notice if someone who actually followed his "strict regimen" ever was actually in contention for a longer race (for more than the first 400 meters).  You know, there is a reason that elite marathoners can run 2:06-ish.  And it has nothing to do with training "stronger" or "faster" ........
2009-04-09 11:52 AM
in reply to: #2073796

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Cross Fit, the new fast?!?!?
tjfry - 2009-04-09 11:03 AM
AndrewMT - 2009-04-09 10:52 AM

tjfry - 2009-04-09 10:14 AMWould Macca approach a 3:45 marathoner for running advice? unlikely.

His time below was posted on Slowtwitch.com:

MacKenzie, Brian 12/17/40 29/M25-29 00:57:59 05:31:55 04:57:34 11:33:47 

So try a 4:57 marathoner....

 

Overall I think that Crossfit is a great system for overall fitness.  The workouts are short and intense.  They've also marketed the brand well and the crossfit "cult" seems to be fiercely loyal.  An 11:33 IM isn't even close to being fast enough for me to start listening to his advice on endurance training.  And he's criticizing Macca?!?!?

However, if your goal is to get faster in triathlon, then it seems like specificity goes a long way. 



Sorry, I meant pure marathon time, not IM marathon. I pulled him up on athlinks.

Either way, not exactly a good basis to show how effective his training is.  I also don't want to imply that a person needs to be fast in order to be knowledgeable or be able to coach. 

However, I would expect a coach to know how to execute a plan during a race.  Running a 4:57 marathon in an Ironman tells me that this guy doesn't understand some basic principles like pacing, nutrition or hydration.  Somehow he blew up on the run.  That's a big red flag for a guy claiming to be able to reshape Macca's training to make him faster.

As I said before, I think his training methods are probably very effective for everyday fitness and the regular age grouper can probably gain a lot following his plan.  However, his arrogance/ignorance on triathlon is a real turn off.

2009-04-09 12:01 PM
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Cycling Guru
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Subject: RE: Cross Fit, the new fast?!?!?
But but but .. he's a Level 3 Crossfit and Level 3 POSE Running coach!!  He's just gotta know what he's talking about with those credentials!
2009-04-09 12:10 PM
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Pro
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Subject: RE: Cross Fit, the new fast?!?!?
I thought Rex Kwon Do a bunch as I read that, though I can totally see how Macca is weak because he doesnt want to get away from what is obviously working and switch tactics.


2009-04-09 12:11 PM
in reply to: #2073936

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Coach
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Subject: RE: Cross Fit, the new fast?!?!?
AndrewMT - 2009-04-09 11:52 AM

Either way, not exactly a good basis to show how effective his training is.  I also don't want to imply that a person needs to be fast in order to be knowledgeable or be able to coach. 

That's a great  point Andrew; his personal results doesn't validate or disprove his claims as to why he believes CFE is a superior approach versus what accomplished coaches have done (regardless of their personal ability) by leading their athletes to succesful performances.

That's why I mentione on my OP: "
it is easy to talk big but IMO the best way to support your ideas as a coach is via your athletes results. Also, it is easy to claim you can help average untrained individuals because their lack of specific training will allow them to improve with ANY training (even by parking the car at the far end of the all and walk more) but it gets more challenging once you deal with more trained athletes whose gains will be much less and will require that much more work"

There is this crazy mentality among triathletes that a fast coach = good coach and that is far from the truth (i.e. Bret Sutton), and that's why I didn't even bring his PRs into the discussion. His results don't tell us how much or little understanding and experience he has about endurance coaching; some of his comments on the "interview" however does make me question the validity of his premise and effectives of CFE. I am all for finding better ways to make athletes faster as long as they are legal and have solid evidence to support its sucess.
2009-04-09 3:54 PM
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Expert
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Subject: RE: Cross Fit, the new fast?!?!?
It doesn't always equate, but if you can't reference any athletes you've coached to a high level (Like Carmichael, Maffetone, Allen, Sutton, Lydiard), then you better have some way to prove that your way of training is effective. Proof is in the pudding and he has no pudding.

He needs to drop a resume in on his site.
2009-04-09 4:15 PM
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Elite
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Subject: RE: Cross Fit, the new fast?!?!?
Problem with this guy is that he is very much holding himself up as an example of the method's success. A 5:00 run split for an IM isn't exactly the best way to go about that.
2009-04-09 4:31 PM
in reply to: #2073962

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Subject: RE: Cross Fit, the new fast?!?!?
Daremo - 2009-04-09 12:01 PM But but but .. he's a Level 3 Crossfit and Level 3 POSE Running coach!!  He's just gotta know what he's talking about with those credentials!


well that's all you really need for marketing,,  some cool sounding creditials, a couple bold statements to get some attention,, then a few testimonials  ..  pretty proven method...  to sell something that is.

edited to add... However is he saying that you can't train s/b/r at all ??    he just made it sound to me that he wants you doing high intensity stuff.  is that not basically the same as trying to increase you FTP?? or doing intervals or doing zone 3 training??    I"m wondering if there is just a difference in terms he is using

Edited by Gaarryy 2009-04-09 4:37 PM
2009-04-09 4:41 PM
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Elite
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Subject: RE: Cross Fit, the new fast?!?!?

Gaarryy - 2009-04-09 4:31 PM
Daremo - 2009-04-09 12:01 PM But but but .. he's a Level 3 Crossfit and Level 3 POSE Running coach!!  He's just gotta know what he's talking about with those credentials!


well that's all you really need for marketing,,  some cool sounding creditials, a couple bold statements to get some attention,, then a few testimonials  ..  pretty proven method...  to sell something that is.

edited to add... However is he saying that you can't train s/b/r at all ??    he just made it sound to me that he wants you doing high intensity stuff.  is that not basically the same as trying to increase you FTP?? or doing intervals or doing zone 3 training??    I"m wondering if there is just a difference in terms he is using

I'm pretty sure Macca does high intensity work and works on increasing his FTP.  This guy makes it sound like he has something completely different.  It sounds like he's suggesting high intensity and strength work (squats, cleans, etc) without any high volume training.  

I thought training was all about total workload, which is a combination of both intensity and volume, not just one or the other.



2009-04-09 4:43 PM
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Pro
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Subject: RE: Cross Fit, the new fast?!?!?

That "interview" is comic genius!

"What’s even more shocking is that Brian has only been in this endurance game for about 6 years!"

"Brian, thanks for your time and your shockingly fresh and innovative perspective."

2009-04-09 4:49 PM
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Sneaky Slow
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Subject: RE: Cross Fit, the new fast?!?!?
Did anyone other than me notice that the interviewer is a BTer?

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/view-profile.asp?action=view&uid=103386

Would love to know his thoughts as he reads this thread... and he never posts much, but logged in today, I noticed.


Edited by newleaf 2009-04-09 4:50 PM
2009-04-09 4:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Cross Fit, the new fast?!?!?
You know why you just don't get it, Jorge? Not enough tattoos. The tattoos add credibility. If you added a few tattoos, maybe we'd listen to you.


2009-04-09 6:03 PM
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Subject: RE: Cross Fit, the new fast?!?!?
AndrewMT - 2009-04-09 4:41 PM

Gaarryy - 2009-04-09 4:31 PM
Daremo - 2009-04-09 12:01 PM But but but .. he's a Level 3 Crossfit and Level 3 POSE Running coach!!  He's just gotta know what he's talking about with those credentials!


well that's all you really need for marketing,,  some cool sounding creditials, a couple bold statements to get some attention,, then a few testimonials  ..  pretty proven method...  to sell something that is.

edited to add... However is he saying that you can't train s/b/r at all ??    he just made it sound to me that he wants you doing high intensity stuff.  is that not basically the same as trying to increase you FTP?? or doing intervals or doing zone 3 training??    I"m wondering if there is just a difference in terms he is using

I'm pretty sure Macca does high intensity work and works on increasing his FTP.  This guy makes it sound like he has something completely different.  It sounds like he's suggesting high intensity and strength work (squats, cleans, etc) without any high volume training.  

I thought training was all about total workload, which is a combination of both intensity and volume, not just one or the other.


 I agree with ya.. but in the article when he mentioned that he can tell when someone does more time then he planned for them since they can't recover enough for the next workout made me wonder if he isn't doing some sort of conventional training along with the cross fit... 

Deep Heavy Squats is the new black
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