Cross Fit, the new fast?!?!? (Page 5)

IMAZ results are a bit messed up 2010 athlete tracker has 2009, 2009 has 2008 etc.. but you are correct.. evan was a DNS
http://liveupdate.ironmanlive.com/ppv/newsearch.php?rid=265&y=2010&race=/events/ironman/arizona/&athlete=McGerald

Looks like he has Lyme's

From TriMax website

I personally have started doing Crossfit. I see it that gaining overall fitness and strength is good for me. How it effects me as a triathlete I'm not sure but don't see how it will hurt.

Mcgerald Struck Down With Lyme’s Disease

November 16, 2009

After a strong summer of multiple PRs and new found fitness brought on by Evan’s aggressive use of CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance, Evan McGerald’s road to Ironman Arizona was cut short upon learning of his contraction of Lyme’s disease.  Evan had been bitten by a tick in the mid summer but only recently learned via a blood test that he had been infected.  We wish Evan all the best for a quick recovery and new goals for 2010.

Happy New Year, all.

At the risk of drawing more ire from posting information about CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance protocols, I thought I'd share some more personal experiences with some clients of mine who will be racing in various Ironmans and 70.3 races in 2010.  The blogs listed below feature athletes who will be training virtually exclusively on CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance and will be competing in the following races.

Ironman Japan
Ironman Coeur d'Alene
Ironman Lake Placid
REV3 Half Iron
Patriotman half iron
Timberman 70.3
Busselton half iron (Australia)

I encourage anyone interested in this protocol to review these blogs and see how they perform.  I think you'll enjoy their insights as well as potentially see that there are other ways to skin the half iron and full Ironman cat!

http://00stake.blogspot.com/
http://trimamma23.blogspot.com/
http://marcypicano.blogspot.com/
http://alegassa.blogspot.com/
http://cwunderle.blogspot.com/
http://janetrijourney.blogspot.com/

Max

No, the guy is just out in left field.

Couldn't help myself....Here are the results from 9 people who did nothing but CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance in training for Ironman Lake Placid.

mwunderle

 

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Previous

For years I have been saying exactly what you suggested above. There is no method to the madness of crossfit. There are very few people (niche) that have the ability to utilize this concept the way it should be used.
In my opinion, if used properly it should only be supplemented (infrequently) into a regular routine (if at all). I have a friend that is a surgeon (very well known in my area), who is very fit, and said to me that he loves Crossfit. I asked him why and he said because it is making him rich. He said that he has cut open more knees because of Crossfit over the past year.
The biggest problem is, is that they put these workout of the days on line without knowing anyones goals or ability. To me that is just chaotic and stupid.
What I do applaud crossfit for is the attention it has brought to fitness, but that's about it.

Nice control group to validate your results.

Oh wait, there isn't one.

Ah yes, again the attacks on CrossFit based on the injury angle, but we love to ignore the fact that 80% of runners get hurt every year executing periodized, volumetric distance protocols.

I think one would find thousands of other doctors who have gotten rich prescribing orthotics, motion controlled shoes, IT band restrictors and the like for distance runners who get hurt every year.

Gonna be a long day....I am not advocating CrossFit as a be all, end all protocol, just another option for athletes looking to achieve their dreams without having to put in endless hours.

Max
www.gotrimax.com

Can you share the age of your athletes by result? How many Kona slots or podiums did your guys have?

Sure...here are the ages, no podiums, no Kona slots, but considering your background in the sport something tells me you already knew that...

Athlete                                      Age
Jay Swift                                   43
Brittanny Rutter                        34
Dave Carbone                           51
Sue Grigely                                43
Christina Wunderle                   40
Ariel Legassa                             38
Colleen Healy                            39
Melanie Melocowsky                  43
Martin Henry                              45
Erica Diner                                 45

Well yes, but the reason to ask was because when I 1st started this thread over a year ago, one of the premises of crossfit endurance was how this "new" approach was going to revolutionize endurance training and "teach" how all the training we've been doing is wrong. At least that's what the founder preached and the reason I've criticized it.

Right now you posted the results of your athletes as a way to somehow justify the validity of Crossfit and IMO it just shows how people who don't do much specific endurance training can manage to survive and Ironman. I can only assume that cuz you also posted it on Slowtwitch though I might be mistaken. Anyway, I guess I could share the results of some of our athletes but that won't justify anything either (though we got 5 podiums and 2 Kona slots )  but then again I am not making any extraordinary claims as crossfit supporters.

I said it again and I'll repeat myself yet again. CF has some interesting and useful principles and some any knowledgeable coach can apply to his/her athletes training. It doesn't have to be in the same way or form since anaerobic training can take many forms and strength training is only a very small part of it and not specific. But, from go to using it as a complement to address small aspects of endurance training to help an athlete evolve into a more complete one to claim it is the the best way at training and the latest revolutionary approach, well, that's the reason you continue t get so much resistance around.

Anyway, congrats to your athletes on completing their races.

congrats to your athletes.. But when you explain the issue's two of your athletes had on the course,  then in the next paragraph say that all of the athletes nailed their nutrition it makes me skeptical.  Then again I consider hydration and nutrition as the same thing. 

Would you consider (or do you currently)  having your athletes doing a few longer workouts in order to test thier hydration/nutrition plans? Something like a 4hr race pace bike and a 60 min run? 

It seems that the goal of cross fit endurance is to complete the race with as little as possible time training time on the bike/run/swim.  at least that is how I'm reading it when you compare the time training with CF Endurance to the Avg IMLP persons training time.    Would having a couple longish type workouts to test the nutrition conflict with their CF training to much?

CrossFit Endurance has existed for just over 2 years and I am convinced it is only a matter of time before there are examples of its use in the top echelon of the sport.  Having said this, it is pure speculation and not the point of these posts.

The fact about Kona or podium finishes is that less than 2% of the triathlon community will EVER achieve such goals.  Conversely, 98% of the community believes the only way to become an Ironman or to simply improve is to do more miles.  The purpose of my posts is to simply show another way.  There are thousands upon thousands of athletes across the world who believe running a marathon or a half Ironman or a full Ironman are accomplishments that are impossible without huge commitments of time.  The examples of my athletes are simply opportunities to show this alternative path, nothing more.

As for the nutrition issues, one athlete (Melocowsky) has a medical condition that has caused so much frustration.  We (and her doctors) don't believe we'll be able to address it under any circumstances--however, she wants to continue to test alternatives.  As for Rutter, she made a rookie mistake in not taking on enough water and ended up in the med tent.  The other 8 athletes, however, were spot on in their nutrition, hydration and electrolyte protocols.

Max

Wow...I guess we're going cross forums here.  I'll copy and paste my response to your posting there where I show you that for at least one athlete (Jay Swift) he has gone over 1 hour faster employing CrossFit protocols vs. traditional triathlon training...

Ah, here it comes...

Just for the record, Jay Swift HAD been spending upwards of 20-25 hrs per week executing traditional triathlon protocols for 4 years before finding CrossFit last January. At last year's IMLP, he went 11:15, down from 11:45 in 2008. On Sunday, he went 10:49, another 25 minute drop from 2009. Additionally, Brittany Rutter had been using traditional triathlon training protocols since 2003 when she went 11:33 at IMLP. Since then, she has done 4-5 other Ironmans, never close to this result--until Sunday when she went 11:46 and PR'd her run.

So, for these 2 athletes, CrossFit did exactly the opposite of what you're suggesting.

Max
www.gotrimax.com

Edited by eliwashere 2010-07-28 9:33 AM

2 miles swimming, 30 miles biking and 5 miles running..

Is that per week?  Per workout, what?  I did read the CFE protocol, and I honestly don't see how this is what it calls for on a weekly basis, which is what was listed to compare. 

That looks like 3 hours worth of training time, not the ~10 or so advertised.

See I don't think I necessarily disagree with you on this one, though I want to believe us as coaches have the responsibility to teach those athlete understand it is not a matter of volume or intensity but a matter of adequate training load management and find a the right balance between their goals, needs and time constraints. IMO you could be making a disservice to athletes by not teaching them understand this. One should NOT focus on either side of the spectrum. You criticize and even make fun of those who want to spend a lot of time training and go on to claim that you want to offer an alternative for those who don't want to invest (or 'waste') a lot of time training away from their families.

But you are going to the the extreme on the other side of the spectrum and if that's what you believe in and you think is the best way to cater your coaching for your athletes that's your choice. I just think is a bit hypocritical to muck those who train a lot because they can/want and then get defensive when someone question your approach in particular when the founder of that approach you follow claims the rest of the endurance world has it wrong and you have it right.

I already spent time illustrating why the evidence provided by CFE is nothing but misleading to justify your/their approach. As I said, it is not or shouldn't be a either or situation. Load had to be managed via intensity and volume and for those following this common sense approach will most likely will optimize their training within their needs/constraints while at the same time diminishing the chances of injury. No magic bullets or promising unrealistic goals; simply offering good old fashion hard work within each athlete limits and goals. Athletes can do specific IM without committing to what seem unreasonable training hours (for them) and still do the necessary work to adapt their body for the demands of the distance. That has nothing to do with CFE by the way but simple understanding of basic physiology and training concepts. 

BTW, IMO the getting injured arguments is a fair critic for CFE. I personally know a few cases of athletes following the CFE approach (though I don't know the detail of thir training) who managed to complete their race yet later have battled chronic injuries. It might or might not have anything to do with CFE but the fact athletes train lesser time and then go onto exposing their bodies for 12+ hrs of training, something their bodies are simply not adapted for, it is not crazy to believe their lack of specific preparation lead they to get injured.

And yes, the same happens for those doing a lot of training, but that just supports my point. Is not about how much or what kind of training ones does that leads to injuries, in my experience and based on the available evidence it is more a function of doing too much of anything (volume, intensity or both) beyond the athletes personal limits. The fact that CFE suggests doing non-IM specific training IMO can lead to a greater chance of that happening though.

Anyway, 2 years ago the founder of CFE promised this method would revolutionize the world including at the top of the sport. I'll continue to wait for that evidence beyond the results of a few outliers. In the mean time, it is my job is to help my athletes accomplishing their athletic goals matching their expectations with reality while at the same time allowing to take care of life priorities and avoid injuries. For that reason, I will continue to follow a common sense approach and base it on the actual current scientific evidence and match that with my own coaching experience and that of the knowledgeable/experienced coaches I interact with. If tomorrow CFE proves to be a better option while at the same time keeping athletes for getting hurt, hey I'll be all for it, but until that day comes, I'll keep asking questioning its premises and promises.

It is hard to make a blank statement like that and suggest Mr. Swift automatically improved this year because of CFE when it might very well could be he did in spite of it. LP times were faster across the board this year so right there it be a reason for his faster time. In addition, over time our bodies continue to adapt to endurance training as long as we keep inducing certain adaptations hence that plus the switch in training load could account for another portion in the PR.

Moreover, Mr. Swift could also be a wiser more experienced athlete who in addition to learning proper pacing and nutrition over the past 2 years, also learned about the importance of details such as equipment and he could easily have cut his time short by a better aero position, bike, aero helmet, wheels, tires, etc. So that has to also be considered. Finally, unless you have documented training details such as power files, GPS files, etc. it is hard to credit all of Mr. Swift improvements to one single variable. In fact, playing the skeptic side a bit more, one could even argue that since Mr. Swift changed to CFE training early this year from traditional* training, his rate of improvement dropped from 5.3% to 3.9% Though I am only half kidding as I am just illustrating a point that it is hard to say why he went faster or not.

Though I will give you this, *if* Mr. Swift indeed was training 20-25hrs x week (how many weeks or was this his eak week?) which seems high for the avg age grouper, it does sem he wasn't doing the adequate training to optimize his performance, though I would need much more details to be able to say for certain.

* I don't really know what you mean by traditional training. I think CFE supporters might have an incorrect understanding of what adequate training for any endurance event is though it is not their fault. There is a lot of misinformation and training myths out there as to what optimal training is, though the answer is not black or white but as "it depends" based on the athletes needs, goals, time constraints, fitness, genes, age, weight, etc.

Not a coach, not an IM finisher (yet), just a guy who like's the sport, lifestyle, and really wants to finish an IM. Just curious, as to why one wuld choose Cross Fit over traditinal training., I mean, IM is in fact a triathlon, and if you want to do an IM shouldn't you at least like the 3 disciplines that make up the sport. I enjoy S/B/R, and lots of it. Just seems weird to me to want to compete in an endurance event without ever actually training with endurance.

As Andrew said, there is SBR, just not as much.

But your point is well taken.  I LOVE my long rides on the weekend.  I do plenty of hard intervals, etc., during the week.  I would never (if I could avoid it) give up my long bike or long run for a weight session, or whatever.

I went back and read the interview, and frankly the hubris is pretty breathtaking.  The answer to "How would you train Macca?" is absolutely absurd.  If this guy had in fact coached some Kona winners, then his answer would be interesting.  But (and I think that Jorge's point about Kona slots, etc. is relevant here, if not relevant to those who just want to finish the race) as things stand, the guy just comes across as an ignorant blowhard.

I can see the headline now

Chrissie Wellington, CAUGHT doing crossfit