Am I having delusions of grandeur?

Pro

3906

Libertyville, IL

Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?

cusetri - 2009-06-02 1:26 PM

jszat - 2009-06-02 2:02 PM

cusetri - 2009-06-02 12:52 PM

Daremo - 2009-06-02 1:44 PM I do not prescribe to the "race at a training pace" thing. If you are paying the money to toe the line, you race to the best of your ability that day. If you are going into it and training through it as a "C" race, that is fine. You just won't perform as well as you would rested. But to me if you do not leave everything out on the course, you just wasted your money and could have accomplished the same thing at home for free.

X2.

Even if you sign up with the intent of taking it easy, you can kiss that plan bye-bye (if you are a competitive person), by the time you get to the starting line.

Strangely, there are competitive people out there who can put training sessions or races of lessor importance in the proper context. If you are one of them, are willing to put in long hours and risk the possibility of injury, go for it. I would say its probably a bit of a stretch to ramp up that quick but if you kept your volume build reasonable and tried to build endurance with little if any speed focus you could pull it off. This will require discipline though so you need to be honest with yourself on if you can look at the big term picture.

I dont think so, and if so, they I dont think they understand what "b" and "c" races are and I dont think they are very competitive.

they only thing, IMO, that should prevent your maximum potential in a B or C race is not being as rested as you would coming into an A race. if you go into a race and dont give your all that day, well, its not a race, and you should have stayed home.

honestly, i think its a misconception in the endurance world that a B or C race is run at a training intensity. this is false, under the true definitition of a B or C race. the only difference is the training schedule leading up to said race.

Some folks determine they have bigger fish to fry during the season and race/train accordingly. Why should somebody stay home from a supported long training day if it fits into those bigger goals if they want to pay the price? And what happens if they are dogging it and they come in before you? This place is full of 'very competitive' people who race themselves into shortened seasons due to injury or idiotic workload in training that they arent prepared for. I would contend that there are very competitive people that do races as long training days with other goals in mind, maybe a bigger picture. I could care less what the race is called on a grading scale, I just know there is probably cold water when I want it and some other peeps to be out there with enjoying the sport. Sometimes I am even enjoying the sport to AG placings too. Maybe I should be more competitive all the time?

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Cycling Guru

15134

Fulton, MD

Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?

I know people that can ride 100 miles on Friday, run 20 on Saturday and come back on Sunday and run low 17's in a 5k while completely wiped out. They just have the ability to do that. But they also are not sandbagging and sitting back in the 5k, they are putting forth the full effort within their ability at that moment. It gives you a snapshot of where your fitness is and you can make adjustments accordingly.

Big picture is all fine and dandy. I go back to "scheduled races to enhance your training." One should NOT schedule a sprint or olympic race so that they can go 80% to test their IM pacing and nutrition. That is just stupid and a waste of money. They could have done that at home for free and since they aren't "competing" in it - even though they may place well because of their ability (see example in first paragraph) - they would be throwing away money.

I for a fact am not in any place where I can throw away money by making a race a pure training day not at full effort. Maybe those with disposable income can do that, but it still makes little sense to me.

A supported bike ride or a team/club run?? Neither of those things are races. There are no "winners" or AG rankings. Perfect place to work on whatever pacing you want with friends/teammates around.

Edited by Daremo 2009-06-02 2:01 PM

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Pro

3906

Libertyville, IL

Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?

Daremo - 2009-06-02 2:01 PM I know people that can ride 100 miles on Friday, run 20 on Saturday and come back on Sunday and run low 17's in a 5k while completely wiped out. They just have the ability to do that. But they also are not sandbagging and sitting back in the 5k, they are putting forth the full effort within their ability at that moment. It gives you a snapshot of where your fitness is and you can make adjustments accordingly.

Big picture is all fine and dandy. I go back to "scheduled races to enhance your training." One should NOT schedule a sprint or olympic race so that they can go 80% to test their IM pacing and nutrition. That is just stupid and a waste of money. They could have done that at home for free and since they aren't "competing" in it - even though they may place well because of their ability (see example in first paragraph) - they would be throwing away money.

I for a fact am not in any place where I can throw away money by making a race a pure training day not at full effort. Maybe those with disposable income can do that, but it still makes little sense to me.

A supported bike ride or a team/club run?? Neither of those things are races. There are no "winners" or AG rankings. Perfect place to work on whatever pacing you want with friends/teammates around.

I agree with some of this and I think to be clear I speak more in the context of long course stuff. I think perspective is part of the issue here. For me, I am fine with doing longer events at less than race pace when conditioning for other longer events i.e. a HIM where I might tweak what I do when from an intensity level due to recovery cost. From where I am personally, a sprint or oly isnt going to bang me up too much where I would ever hold back on something like that or even bother showing up. That I get. Since we are talking the longer stuff though, and the first time at the distances, I think its possible with a conservative plan. But seems the OP isnt concerned about it anymore and is going with something more reasonable. Ha! And since my wife is now racing, yeah, the choice to do races as luxury training days has been easier to make.

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Master

1927

Guilford, CT

Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?

Thanks all. These are some good perspectives. I appreciate the volume of responses.

The honest assessment is that I don't have the running base to get to where I need to be for a marathon while also focusing on the volume I need to be doing on the swim and bike. I need to drop some weight before putting the run mileage on my legs. I'm coming off of shin splints a couple months ago and being to aggressive can bring them back or worse.

I may do the Oly as an A race (or find some other Oly that seems fun in New England in late summer and do it), the sprint for fun because it's in the town I grew up in (and I already paid the $60), scratch the half IM altogether this year, then really determine in the next few weeks if the marathon in Newport is in the cards or if I should just do the half and be my wife's pacer (I hear the hills aren't too fun in the second half).

Soooo, who's going to Orlando May 18, 2009? I think a family vacation at Disney may be in order

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Master

1853

syracuse

Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?

jszat - 2009-06-02 2:48 PM

cusetri - 2009-06-02 1:26 PM

jszat - 2009-06-02 2:02 PM

cusetri - 2009-06-02 12:52 PM

Daremo - 2009-06-02 1:44 PM I do not prescribe to the "race at a training pace" thing. If you are paying the money to toe the line, you race to the best of your ability that day. If you are going into it and training through it as a "C" race, that is fine. You just won't perform as well as you would rested. But to me if you do not leave everything out on the course, you just wasted your money and could have accomplished the same thing at home for free.

X2.

Even if you sign up with the intent of taking it easy, you can kiss that plan bye-bye (if you are a competitive person), by the time you get to the starting line.

Strangely, there are competitive people out there who can put training sessions or races of lessor importance in the proper context. If you are one of them, are willing to put in long hours and risk the possibility of injury, go for it. I would say its probably a bit of a stretch to ramp up that quick but if you kept your volume build reasonable and tried to build endurance with little if any speed focus you could pull it off. This will require discipline though so you need to be honest with yourself on if you can look at the big term picture.

I dont think so, and if so, they I dont think they understand what "b" and "c" races are and I dont think they are very competitive.

they only thing, IMO, that should prevent your maximum potential in a B or C race is not being as rested as you would coming into an A race. if you go into a race and dont give your all that day, well, its not a race, and you should have stayed home.

honestly, i think its a misconception in the endurance world that a B or C race is run at a training intensity. this is false, under the true definitition of a B or C race. the only difference is the training schedule leading up to said race.

Some folks determine they have bigger fish to fry during the season and race/train accordingly. Why should somebody stay home from a supported long training day if it fits into those bigger goals if they want to pay the price? And what happens if they are dogging it and they come in before you? This place is full of 'very competitive' people who race themselves into shortened seasons due to injury or idiotic workload in training that they arent prepared for. I would contend that there are very competitive people that do races as long training days with other goals in mind, maybe a bigger picture. I could care less what the race is called on a grading scale, I just know there is probably cold water when I want it and some other peeps to be out there with enjoying the sport. Sometimes I am even enjoying the sport to AG placings too. Maybe I should be more competitive all the time?

i've never once crossed a finish line with more in the tank and thought to msyelf, "well played. good job, Mike!" what progess you've made. what a great "training day!" "this is exactly how you should not feel on your real race day."

the day I have those thoughts is the day I quit.

and I could give a hoot if someone beats me on a dogged effort. Besides my time, I only care about 1st 2nd and 3rd, and I can assure you those people did not put forth a dogged effort.

Edited by cusetri 2009-06-02 2:28 PM

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Pro

3906

Libertyville, IL

Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?

cusetri - 2009-06-02 2:25 PM

jszat - 2009-06-02 2:48 PM

cusetri - 2009-06-02 1:26 PM

jszat - 2009-06-02 2:02 PM

cusetri - 2009-06-02 12:52 PM

Daremo - 2009-06-02 1:44 PM I do not prescribe to the "race at a training pace" thing. If you are paying the money to toe the line, you race to the best of your ability that day. If you are going into it and training through it as a "C" race, that is fine. You just won't perform as well as you would rested. But to me if you do not leave everything out on the course, you just wasted your money and could have accomplished the same thing at home for free.

X2.

Even if you sign up with the intent of taking it easy, you can kiss that plan bye-bye (if you are a competitive person), by the time you get to the starting line.

Strangely, there are competitive people out there who can put training sessions or races of lessor importance in the proper context. If you are one of them, are willing to put in long hours and risk the possibility of injury, go for it. I would say its probably a bit of a stretch to ramp up that quick but if you kept your volume build reasonable and tried to build endurance with little if any speed focus you could pull it off. This will require discipline though so you need to be honest with yourself on if you can look at the big term picture.

I dont think so, and if so, they I dont think they understand what "b" and "c" races are and I dont think they are very competitive.

they only thing, IMO, that should prevent your maximum potential in a B or C race is not being as rested as you would coming into an A race. if you go into a race and dont give your all that day, well, its not a race, and you should have stayed home.

honestly, i think its a misconception in the endurance world that a B or C race is run at a training intensity. this is false, under the true definitition of a B or C race. the only difference is the training schedule leading up to said race.

Some folks determine they have bigger fish to fry during the season and race/train accordingly. Why should somebody stay home from a supported long training day if it fits into those bigger goals if they want to pay the price? And what happens if they are dogging it and they come in before you? This place is full of 'very competitive' people who race themselves into shortened seasons due to injury or idiotic workload in training that they arent prepared for. I would contend that there are very competitive people that do races as long training days with other goals in mind, maybe a bigger picture. I could care less what the race is called on a grading scale, I just know there is probably cold water when I want it and some other peeps to be out there with enjoying the sport. Sometimes I am even enjoying the sport to AG placings too. Maybe I should be more competitive all the time?

i've never once crossed a finish line with more in the tank and thought to msyelf, "well played. good job, Mike!" what progess you've made. what a great "training day!" "this is exactly how you should not feel on your real race day."

the day I have those thoughts is the day I quit.

and I could give a hoot if someone beats me on a dogged effort. Besides my time, I only care about 1st 2nd and 3rd, and I can assure you those people did not put forth a dogged effort.

Have you ever had to race a HIM and get back to IM training in a day or two? Its a bit different than crapping out sprints and olys. As a person progresses, they get turn it up a notch in this scenario depending on how recovery goes. In the case of the OP the suggestion was that recovery probably wouldnt be that quick so restraint would be necessary to pull it off. The opinions and philosophy on racing are nice and all, but my guess is that the OP was looking possible ways to accomplish the schedule.

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Champion

7595

Columbia, South Carolina

Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?

cusetri - 2009-06-02 1:52 PM

Daremo - 2009-06-02 1:44 PM I do not prescribe to the "race at a training pace" thing. If you are paying the money to toe the line, you race to the best of your ability that day. If you are going into it and training through it as a "C" race, that is fine. You just won't perform as well as you would rested. But to me if you do not leave everything out on the course, you just wasted your money and could have accomplished the same thing at home for free.

X2.

Even if you sign up with the intent of taking it easy, you can kiss that plan bye-bye (if you are a competitive person), by the time you get to the starting line.

X3, except maybe it will take a little bit longer to kick in. I did a half mary last fall prior to my mary, with the intention of not racing it hard. That plan lasted about 5 miles, then I couldn't resist any longer. My splits were ridiculous -- 8+ minute miles for the first 5, then around 6:45 miles for the remainder....

Anyway, never again. I've gone into every race since then with the intention of going all out. Sometimes I train through, and sometimes I get the pacing wrong and don't end up going all out, but it's always my intention.

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Extreme Veteran

361

Dallas, TX (Valley Ranch area)

Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?

Daremo - 2009-06-02 12:44 PM

I do not prescribe to the "race at a training pace" thing. If you are paying the money to toe the line, you race to the best of your ability that day. If you are going into it and training through it as a "C" race, that is fine. You just won't perform as well as you would rested. But to me if you do not leave everything out on the course, you just wasted your money and could have accomplished the same thing at home for free.

I agree here ... if you are okay with one of the last two races being a "C" event, go for it. But do not expect to be in top form for both.

New Haven, CT

Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?

Daremo - 2009-06-02 1:44 PM I do not prescribe to the "race at a training pace" thing. If you are paying the money to toe the line, you race to the best of your ability that day. If you are going into it and training through it as a "C" race, that is fine. You just won't perform as well as you would rested. But to me if you do not leave everything out on the course, you just wasted your money and could have accomplished the same thing at home for free.

x2. Also, shorter races are not necessarily eaiser. Redlining for a sprint may be harder than pacing for an IM for some. Yeah the sprint is over faster but it hurts lots for the hour or so of the race.

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Champion

19812

MA

Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?

Since you want to do the Mary or 1/2 Mary with your wife, I'd ditch Nutmeg man...is that one up in NE CT? If so it is very very tough course and the bike is brutal. Read some race reports. Fastest bike split in HIM was 2:44 and MOP bike was ~3:34.

I know the women that won it first year and last year won IMLP and she told me it was the hardest HIM bike she's ever done.

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Master

1651

Breckenridge, CO

Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?

jszat - 2009-06-02 12:48 PM
Some folks determine they have bigger fish to fry during the season and race/train accordingly. ... I would contend that there are very competitive people that do races as long training days with other goals in mind, maybe a bigger picture.

Who are these folks? I've certainly known competive folks that will do a race slow with a friend or something for an experience. I've also known some people who are so competitive that they are basically afraid to really race so they just claim to go 80% instead and conveniently call it a training day. But I don't know anyone truly "competitive" who shows up for a race with the plan of just doing it as an easy/moderate training day. I'm not saying these folks don't exist but I've never met one.

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Pro

3906

Libertyville, IL

Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?

breckview - 2009-06-02 10:55 PM

jszat - 2009-06-02 12:48 PM Some folks determine they have bigger fish to fry during the season and race/train accordingly. ... I would contend that there are very competitive people that do races as long training days with other goals in mind, maybe a bigger picture.

Who are these folks? I've certainly known competive folks that will do a race slow with a friend or something for an experience. I've also known some people who are so competitive that they are basically afraid to really race so they just claim to go 80% instead and conveniently call it a training day. But I don't know anyone truly "competitive" who shows up for a race with the plan of just doing it as an easy/moderate training day. I'm not saying these folks don't exist but I've never met one.

Well, me for one. I know some folks that did Boston this year just to run the race and didnt hammer it. I even heard Dean Karnazes didnt redline a bunch of the marathons he did in his 50/50 campaign either.... I will admit personally my HIM before my IM was a long training day and sure, I was afraid to race that one. Why? I didnt want to screw up my training schedule or get injured for the bigger race. My approach is a bit conservative at times but it also has worked for me. So yeah, there are all types. I think my race history shows when I do an event and choose to race, I am a competitor. Call me a type A- I guess.

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Elite

5316

Alturas, California

Subject: RE: Am I having delusions of grandeur?

The OP's longest run in the past month is 8 miles, second longest is 6.xx and a typical run is 3.xx ish. Just saying building to a full mary while doing all those races will take someone who recovers a heck of a lot faster than I do. But if you add 3 months after the HIM to the Full Mary, that should work out nicely.

I think we all just want the OP to be healthy, enjoy the sport and be able to stick with it for the long haul. This has nothing to do with htfu.

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Am I having delusions of grandeur? (Page 2)

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