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2009-06-17 3:05 PM
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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...
cusetri - 2009-06-17 12:58 PM since when is 6:XX's elite....for any distance up to and including marathon? 

for tri's a HIM, 6:30+ is attenable by the average human. 

Is "elite" a different class than "pro?" 

even so, I see people who race or can race under Elite status, and there going 5:45-:55 for olympics.  Stand along 5 ks, i've seen sub 5:00/mile common amoung college athletes

in your logs today you mention you are 229, how tall are you?

My bet is you get to 180-190 you'll be doing 7's easily (as long as your not 6-7.)

under 180, say hello to 6's....of course, run a lot and dont get hurt while losing weight.  your comparing your times against people who weight 70 lbs less than you. 

IMO, genetics are not even in discussion until we're talking sub 5:30/min in a stand alond 5 k and sub 6:00 in a tri sprint/olympic. 



Well I'm glad to say I'm NOT 6'7".







I'm 6'8"


2009-06-17 3:07 PM
in reply to: #2224975

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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...
Aikidoman - 2009-06-17 12:51 PM
the bear - 2009-06-17 12:43 PM I'm wondering what's to be gained by comparing yourself to elite athletes? IMHO there's a significant genetic component at work as well, and no amount of training is going to get you me down to speeds comparable to the elite runners.



What is to be gained?  How about just some insite on how it 'feels' to an elite runner to run at that pace...  Maybe get a glimps on how someone else see something.

I don't have to be out to gain something except for some understanding with every question I ask or ponder about.


I was nowhere near an "elite" runner, but here are my times for comparison and thought.

In HS (early/mid 80's) I was a low 18, high 17 min 5k runner. In college (mid/late 80's) I ran the 5 mile (NAIA) in ~ 30:xx on average. My best PR ever was a 4 mile race, 20:59. I was 5'10ish, and around 150 lbs.

When I started running again last year, 10 minute miles were painful. I ran my first ever 1/2 mary in Jan on little more than hopes and dreams, and suffered to a 2:30 finish. Next year I'm hoping for 1:40 or below.

Now, after 3 months of fairly solid running, my training pace is between 7-8 minutes a mile, at 172 lbs. 7 minutes a mile feels pushing a bit, 8 minutes is easy. I think with a few more solid months, I can get the weight down to 165, and the times down by another minute/mile.

Now, that being said, I took a look at your logs, and the answer to your running question is right there. You are running about 12.5 miles per week, and 99% of that in Z1/Z2. Your swimming WAY WAY outstrips the running, as does your biking. Right now (Ignore last month and before, I wasn't logging at all, and May I had a taper week for a race plus an interim between plans week.) I'm at ~ 57 miles running already this month.

If someone asked you how to get faster at swimming, you'd have an answer right there - More swimming to build base, more swimming at threshold, more interval sets. No big mystery, it's pretty much the same thing for running. You need to get your running up to 25-30 miles a week (Minimum, more for peak weeks if you're going for HIM) for a consistent couple months, then start throwing in strides, interval sets, higher intensity stuff.

You KNOW you can swim. You're probably like me in that you can maintain a fairly FOP level swim on way less volume than your doing. I'd drop some of the swimming volume and trade it in for running. Yeah, it's gonna hurt. It's gonna suck. But it will make you a faster runner. And a faster biker.

Drop me a PM if you have any questions.

John
2009-06-17 3:08 PM
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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...
kimta - 2009-06-17 3:02 PM

Not sure how to phrase this but...how does someone know that they are running as fast as they can?  How do you know when you have reached your limit?



This is where many people find heart rate training to come in handy. Have your AT (anaerobic threshold) tested by a trained professional and learn your zones. This will tell you if your cardio system is really working as hard as you think it is.
2009-06-17 3:14 PM
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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...
kimta - 2009-06-17 1:02 PM

Not sure how to phrase this but...how does someone know that they are running as fast as they can?  How do you know when you have reached your limit?



Most people far underestimate what they are capable of. There is no real way to tell if you have the potential to be a 16 min 5ker or not (Or a sub 2 Olympic, sub whatever event you want in here). And, what may be a limit for you now, may not be a limit in 2 years with consistent training.

John
2009-06-17 3:15 PM
in reply to: #2225026

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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...
Thanks everyone for the tips...  Helpful.

BUT, I will add that I KNOW my running has been off recently.  It was a strength in the past (at least against other clydesdales) while biking was a weakness.  So I focused on the two wheeled workouts and even threw in extra during the week.

Now that my biking is up to par, back to running.  I actually find it quite interesting and challanging to strike the perfect balance of the three disciplines to maintain or grow in all three and not lose in any of them.

I was also following a sprint/oly plan that only had me running 12-15 miles a week.  My HIM plan starts up next week and that will have more longer runs for sure.  I was completely aware of the missing running miles the last several months to focus on the bike.
2009-06-17 3:26 PM
in reply to: #2224896

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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...
I fell that I am really slow too.  I blame it on my tiny little legs. 

During a running clinic, I was told that your feet should not stay on the ground for very long (keep them moving).  I agree, its all about developing endurance and practicing.


2009-06-17 3:27 PM
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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...
Certainly many factors are in play here, but I find that the running economy observed by using better running mechanics can be a huge factor (i.e. midfoot/forfoot striking, chin forward, slight lean, eyes on the horizon, arms in straight lines, breathing, etc).  Initially you will feel more tired and find it uncomfortable, but after while it becomes second nature and you'll be much more economical as a runner...it really helped me drop time per mile.
2009-06-17 3:30 PM
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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...
bmcgee - 2009-06-17 4:27 PM ...it really helped me drop time per mile.


It was definitely changing your running mechanics.  The fact that you were simply running more certainly had nothing to do with it .......

Money mouthWink
2009-06-17 3:31 PM
in reply to: #2224896

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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...
Run, run lots, run easy sometimes, run hard other times, but mainly just run lots. Anything else is just beating around the bush.

2009-06-17 3:36 PM
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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...

I ran with the "fast group" for my long run last weekend. It took all I had to keep up with them. After it was over, I reallized we were 30s faster (per mile) than I usually do that distance (10 miles).  Push yourself by strapping onto faster runners and keeping up at all costs. You'll be surprised what you're capable of.

2009-06-17 3:39 PM
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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...
Daremo - 2009-06-17 3:30 PM
bmcgee - 2009-06-17 4:27 PM ...it really helped me drop time per mile.


It was definitely changing your running mechanics.  The fact that you were simply running more certainly had nothing to do with it .......

Money mouthWink


The weird thing is that I have actually been running less (only about 2-3 times per week - not including bricking).  But my runs have goals and meaning.  1: interval run, 2: aerobic run, 3: time trial or aerobic run. 



2009-06-17 3:40 PM
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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...
How many bricks though? Bricks count as runs!
2009-06-17 3:49 PM
in reply to: #2225137

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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...
smilford - 2009-06-17 3:40 PM How many bricks though? Bricks count as runs!


1 of 20 minutes or so (rarely 2).  I know that running more can produce faster times because it can increase you aerobic capacity (provided your following your running plan), but I just found that when I made those changes to my mechanics it seamed boost overall economy and make me much more comfortable at those faster speeds.
2009-06-17 3:56 PM
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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...
its been said, run lots...

i thought this ST article was pretty good

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Training/Running/How_to_Kill_Your_10k_PR_258.html
2009-06-17 4:08 PM
in reply to: #2225178

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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...
JMINPNW - 2009-06-17 1:56 PM its been said, run lots...

i thought this ST article was pretty good

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Training/Running/How_to_Kill_Your_10k_PR_258.html


I know!  I said it myself in the OP....


thanks for the link.
2009-06-17 6:09 PM
in reply to: #2224896

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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...
Buncha random thoughts...some already posted by others...



Run lots.

Build an endurance base.  Patiently.  Gradually.  Then worry about workouts that recruit more speed-specific adaptations.

Yes, if you are tall/big, you are less likely to be as fast in long-distance running as someone small...there was a study on statistically optimal builds for runners, cyclists, and swimmers that got some play here not that long ago.  And there are genetic differences in fast-twitch and slow-twitch muscle fiber mix with only some modest room to vary the mix through training.

At age 49, I run about 6-flat for an open mile race on the track and do half-mile interval sessions up to 3 miles or so in the low 3's (i.e., sub-6:20 pace)...they hurt, but I do them.  I can run at a 9:00/mile pace for...well, long enough that I realistically hope to head out on my first IM run at not too far off that pace.  ::knock wood::

At age 44, I was 70 lbs heavier and running one mile in 10 minutes about killed me.

Changing footstrike--intentionally or incidentally--had nothing to do with improvement for me...the one time I tried it, I got injured.  There's no one way to run...no matter how many shoe manufacturers and running how-to book authors might want to suggest otherwise.  (There are some things that can get in your way--like overstriding or excessive arm swing across the body--but form is much less critical than with swimming.)

Greater focus on relaxation...which, IMO, will tend to improve economy...had a lot to do with it.  And that, in turn, allowed for ever increasing mileage without injury.  (Didn't have a single overuse injury until I started cross training on the bike and swim, actually.)

But, obviously, getting a whole lot lighter made a difference.  Not going to sugarcoat that.

Running a 5K (about 6:23 pace for me) doesn't feel like a "sprint"...it feels like I'm hyperfocused on almost gliding along, avoiding everything that diverts even an ounce of energy away from turning over my legs.  The painful part of the effort is internal during the race, like your breath is scrambling to keep up with your effort; whereas, doing 220 intervals in HS track (anaerobic sets), you really felt the muscle fatigue and burn set in.



Edited by tcovert 2009-06-17 6:23 PM


2009-06-17 9:59 PM
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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...

A few more thoughts for the pile:

To get faster, you have to train faster. Do fast intervals. You have to teach your body to run fast. When I started, I did all my training at basically the same pace, cause that was all I had. Now, I can mix it up a bit. Dropped 2 min off my avg. mile in a half marathon.

Also, get light or at least lean. I am heavy-I am sure that knocking 20 lbs of fat off would give me at least a minute per mile.

Leg speed-I can't remember where I read it, but they have done studies of leg turnover for "elite" athletes-college and pro's. Their stride length isn't longer, but the turnover is higher. Just like biking, cadence is important.

I have to say, I like the treadmill to "learn" about running faster. I do some of my interval work on treadmills and it has helped my "know" the pace I want to set when I run outside. Also, I can hit the emergency stop!


2009-06-17 10:16 PM
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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...
bmcgee - 2009-06-17 3:27 PM Certainly many factors are in play here, but I find that the running economy observed by using better running mechanics can be a huge factor (i.e. midfoot/forfoot striking, chin forward, slight lean, eyes on the horizon, arms in straight lines, breathing, etc).  Initially you will feel more tired and find it uncomfortable, but after while it becomes second nature and you'll be much more economical as a runner...it really helped me drop time per mile.


did you get your running economy measured on a Lab before and after mentioned changes? If not you are just making assumptions that most likely has little to do with running economy and just a result of months/years of training. That is, even if you are running less now you have miles under your legs that make running a tad easier each time.

It is been tested how elite runner's economy drop after changing their natural mechanics and even after months of training it rarely reaches their previous level and once they stop forcing a particular running style and just run in their natural way their running economy quickly returns. In addition studies have shown runners with better economy are those who have run more over time, that is an older runner who has runs for years and year in general will exhibit better economy than someone just starting regardless of speed. There is no one 'better' running style to run; just the optimal gait that suits your natural style...
2009-06-18 7:10 AM
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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...
Aikidoman - 2009-06-17 2:32 PM I don't know what I'm asking or what I'm expecting to hear back with this post...


BUT, I have a hard time grasping how to run fast - physically.  8 minute miles feels like a solid 10k pace.  If I do intervals at 7:00/mile it feels like I'm running like I stole something....

Then I see elite athletes running in the 6's...  That, to me, almost feels like a sprint.  I can't figure out even how to do that for more than a mile.

Is it leg strength?  Lungs and heart?  Practice?


Recently, my run has been hurting me in races when it used to be a strength.  I have to determine if it's really a weak run, or if I'm doing too much on the bike and then crippling my run splits.

Good news is, running seems easier to get better at.  Run more = run better.


As you said above you basically need to run more, you can also lose some weight and since I don't know what kind of training you do I'll guess you follow a traditional approach in which many of your miles are at easy/pace.

You bascially have been running for 2 years and just considering volume (leaving intensity out of the equation) your avg pace has dropped from 10:13s min/mile on 2007 to 9:35s min/mile so you are improving. of course your avg weekly mileage seems low considering on 2007 you avg was 11 mpw, 2008 16 mpw and this year you are around 14 mpw. Of course those are net numbers not considering when you haven't had a run focus, off-season, etc. still based on genetics, fitness level, schedule, and others prob a good goal to shoot for is 20-25 mpw (again only thinking of volume).

Adding intensity to the equation is key; if you want to run faster you have to do some training and faster pace. I don't buy into the base training approach just because physiologically speaking makes no sense UNLESS (big caveat) you have the time and genes to run 50+ mpw. Yes most runs are easy/steady but others have to include marathon pace (a lot of gains to be made at this pace) and others faster (Threshold, some VO2) specially if your schedule limits your ability to run more x week. Of course you have to be smart, patient and take care of the details to avoid doing too much too soon.

Based on your others posts, and as I said above it seems you also need to lose weight. You size shouldn't be a limiter since some elite athletes are quite tall, however weight is a things that does holds you back if speed is what you are after.

In terms of bike/run training as you know triathlon training is tough cuz we have to balance all 3 sports and once we focus more on one the others can plateau that's why knowing how to maintain the other two or what key sessions you can do even when training less in order to keep on improving. Also unless you have solid benchmarks for your fitness it is difficult to determine if your running speed is suffering in races because other things get into the equation; the fact you have focus on biking my have you ride harder of what you should affecting your run. I like to test each sport individually every 5-6 weeks during training and 3-4 weeks before a race to give me my most current fitness level and based on that I know what sort of performance I should expect on race day *if* execution is correct (pacing/nutrition). If my run is off by x% I know I crew up my execution.

The good news is that if you indeed focused on biking and are stronger than before your run WILL benefit; just do the proper training, execute correct and you'll see results.

Finally and to answer your Q, I am not elite athlete by any stretch but in addition to my training, I was blessed with chicken legs ( ) and good genes. When I am running 30+ mpw and in good running shape my easy pace is around 6:55s to 7 min/mile and yes it is a pace it feels easy as in RPE 2-3 on scale 1-10. In fact last year I paced my best friend to a BQ and 7:15s was easy for most part for me. When running @ 6min/mile I feels a moderate effort, when I get to 5:30s I feel I am working hard and 5s really begins to hurt.
2009-06-18 7:36 AM
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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...

I forgot to add:

1. Leg strenght - strenght is NOT a limiter, no matter how much pounds of weight you can maximal lift, that is not a limiter for endurance sports, what matters is power which is work rate; that is how much work and how fast you can do over certain time/distance. It always takes us the same amount of work (usually measured in kilojoules) to do certain activity 9if our weight remains constant). For instance, if your run 1 mile it will in general take you the same amount of kJ (at the same weight) whether you walk it or run it all out. The difference in pace is what we refer as work rate, in cycling we use power and in running swimming we use pace as a way to quantify that work. Your ability to sustain a higher work rate (power/pace) for x distance is not a function of strenght because strenght is limited as it relies primarily on fast twitch muscles and anaerobic energy system (think 100mts sprinters). Power/pace OTOH relies for most part on slowtwitch and aerobic energy system (think marathoners). If strenght was the limiter then power lifters or sprinters would be the best distance runners and that is not the case. What we seek to achieve in endurance sports with training is to increase our ability of our muscles to do a higher work rate for long periods of time.

Elite runners are not strong when compared to how many pounds they can sqaut vs a power lifter or a sprinter but I can bet you that pound per pound the elite runner has more power than a power lifter. That is, they have the ability to generate a lot of power (let's say run 4:30 min/mile) and sustain that power over 10K, 13.1, 26.2 miles or whatever distance. The power lifter has more maximal strenght which is good for short periods of time...

2. Lungs and heart - the ability of our bodies to distribute oxygen to the working muscles it is a limiter, but that's for everyone (VO2 max). The good news is that this is training to a certain degree but good genes play a big factor; that doesn't mean you won't be able to improve a lot but for some they will improve with less work while others will require a lot of work. Not everyone will turn into elite runners (genes set a limit in our performance) but everyone can become much better (for them) with proper training.

3. Mechanics - this is a debated topic in particular since you have all this "techniques" all over the place suggesting one way or another as THE proper way of running. Yet you analyze the gait of many elite runners and many are rather successful with seemingly unorthodox gaits or "technique". Also as I mentioned above, while running economy is still something not fully studied some of the testing regarding it shows how economy in most cases diminish once the natural mechanics of a person are changed. With further training with the new mechanics eventually economy can improve to normal leves but once the athlete stops focing certain "technique' and runs naturally which is his/her optimal way economy reverts to usual levels. That is not to say there are certain aspects one can work to polish one's natural gait but forcing x or y technique just because a book/coach says so to me doesn't make any sense.

Good luck Aikido!

2009-06-18 7:55 AM
in reply to: #2224896

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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...
As easy as it looks, the elites don't run fast all the time. A good running program has speedwork but also has easy runs for recovery and longer slower runs to build endurance. Make sure you are giving yourself enough rest between workouts and refueling properly.

That said, I have been running for years and have never come close to the 6's! I think some if it is natural talent but hard work goes a long way too. I may not run in the 6s but I have gone from the 10s to the 7s (7s being my fastest 2 mile race pace) over the last 5 years or so. 


2009-06-18 8:16 AM
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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...
Aikidoman - i feel you man.

i see guys like Rick and Jorge and look at their logs and I see a 7-10 mile runs @ 7 mile pace and it makes me sad. 

i run 7 miles last night at a 8:30 / mile and my HR ave was 165 bpm.  it was hot and I was comming off being sick so i can justify harder workout but still it felt really hard.  my best 5k is 22 min right now and I really want to hit 20 min flat this year.  that is 6:45 pace but my 22 min feels like a hard hard pace already. 

i was 195 lbs now i am at 180 lbs 6'1, so that is relatively decent weight i have some muscle but love to be at 175 lbs.  regardless.  taking advice from other threads i have tried running at a constant 150 bpm to make sure i get my endurance build up but that is a 9-10 min mile and i feel slow slow slow.




Edited by trix 2009-06-18 8:21 AM
2009-06-18 8:47 AM
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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...
Aikido - Don't limit yourself because of height and weight. I am 6'7" 240lbs.  I took 8-9  years off of the sport due to several injuries and surgeries.  After training for 4 months I was able to hit 6:40 a mile for 12 mile bike + 5K training brick, and I am hoping that by racing season next year I can be back to a 19:00 5K.  ( I pretty sure I will never be back to sub 18:00 again)  I wasn't able to run near that fast when I started running again, even for short distances (200 yds), but my speed came back to me alot faster than I thought it would.  I like to incorporate lots of stride work into my training.  I feel like these helped me relearn my 'efficient mechanics' quickly.  They may have helped regain some of the innervation I have lost due to age (I'm 40) too.  Not sure.  I also try to do some form drills frequently.  Oh, and I love, love speed work.  I'd do 1/4 mi repeats and 1 mi repeats everyday if I could, but I know I can't and shouldn't.  But speed days are my favorite training days by far.

So is it:

A)  Strides, form drills, speed work
B)  Genetics
C)  Years (15+) experience running to learn running economy
D)  Other or none of the above

I don't know.  I know that I am not 'elite' by any means.  Just letting you know us big guys can run sub 7:00 / mile. 


Edited by ray6foot7 2009-06-18 8:56 AM
2009-06-18 8:48 AM
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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...

The most common misperception in running amongst amateur athletes is that "to run fast, you have to train mostly fast."

So, so wrong.

You should strive to maximimize volume, but keep the vast majority of your miles (80+%) at an easy aerobic pace, <155HR on average.

Yes, you do need one fast and hard workout per week of intervals or speedwork, and yes, you do need to suffer as hard as you can on that day, but that's it.

The total mileage component is SEVERELY underestimated by triathletes wanting to get better at running. As a pure runner, you are nowhere close to your potential if you are under 50 miles per week, and even under 70 miles per week. Of course, most triathletes will never approach 70 miles per week of running, but you need to understand that for most age groupers who can run a 10k at near 6min/mile, they are usually throwing down this type of mileage to begin with.

Unless you have great genetics (some do), volume trumps almost all in runnning. Even for 5k distances. 

I dropped my standalone 5k (and every distance including marathon) time from an already solid 22 minutes to a relatively competitive 18min over a 2 year period. The ONLY thing that worked was the volume - I was running 80 miles+ per week at peak, most of which was run at 9 min/mile pace. In contrast, the entire DECADE before that, I tried to run 25-35 mpw at close to 7min/mile, and only improved minimally after the first 6 months-8 months of serious training. 

It's ironic - running really should be the "easiest" of the 3 sports to improve - all you have to do is log the miles. There's no technique, no tricks, and no "magic training program." For real. You don't need special diet, shoes, clothes, or a bike. You can do it anywhere. You don't even need to train at high intensity - I ran at an easier pace than I've ever trained, ever, while running 80 mpw+. (It's not easy though - the volume will beat on your legs even at slow paces.) This is not unique to me either, this is the cornerstone of training methods used by all competitive distances runners from the mile to the ultramarathon.

2009-06-18 9:06 AM
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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...

agarose2000 - 2009-06-18 8:48 AM

The most common misperception in running amongst amateur athletes is that "to run fast, you have to train mostly fast."

So, so wrong.

You should strive to maximimize volume, but keep the vast majority of your miles (80+%) at an easy aerobic pace, <155HR on average.

Yes, you do need one fast and hard workout per week of intervals or speedwork, and yes, you do need to suffer as hard as you can on that day, but that's it.

The total mileage component is SEVERELY underestimated by triathletes wanting to get better at running. As a pure runner, you are nowhere close to your potential if you are under 50 miles per week, and even under 70 miles per week. Of course, most triathletes will never approach 70 miles per week of running, but you need to understand that for most age groupers who can run a 10k at near 6min/mile, they are usually throwing down this type of mileage to begin with.

Unless you have great genetics (some do), volume trumps almost all in runnning. Even for 5k distances. 

I dropped my standalone 5k (and every distance including marathon) time from an already solid 22 minutes to a relatively competitive 18min over a 2 year period. The ONLY thing that worked was the volume - I was running 80 miles+ per week at peak, most of which was run at 9 min/mile pace. In contrast, the entire DECADE before that, I tried to run 25-35 mpw at close to 7min/mile, and only improved minimally after the first 6 months-8 months of serious training. 

It's ironic - running really should be the "easiest" of the 3 sports to improve - all you have to do is log the miles. There's no technique, no tricks, and no "magic training program." For real. You don't need special diet, shoes, clothes, or a bike. You can do it anywhere. You don't even need to train at high intensity - I ran at an easier pace than I've ever trained, ever, while running 80 mpw+. (It's not easy though - the volume will beat on your legs even at slow paces.) This is not unique to me either, this is the cornerstone of training methods used by all competitive distances runners from the mile to the ultramarathon.

True dat!

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