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2009-06-18 1:52 PM
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Subject: RE: The State of Triathlon Training - Special note to the Novice
cusetri - 2009-06-18 2:41 PM
But it does change the intent of the OP posts which is, Newbies complicate things.   



I don't think that's his point.  "Newbies" SHOULD ask questions to learn.  The problem is so much conflicting advice causes them to think everything is complicated when it is not.  You could have learned 99% of all you needed by following this:

Run more, gradually.  Run mostly easy.  Be patient.  Eventually, run a bit harder.  Time & consistency outweigh any fancy workouts or periodization plans. 

Now, you could read a book about why this is so.  And you could study for the rest of your life about the most effective ways to get the body to respond to stimulus.  But the "newbie" has plenty of time to delve into all of that if they want.  And plenty of people around here are interested enough to share their thoughts on it if asked.  Of course, that may quickly have them thinking things are complicated again. 


2009-06-18 1:54 PM
in reply to: #2227245

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Subject: RE: The State of Triathlon Training - Special note to the Novice
i think your times are fine.  excellent

I think on jumped on you for maybe some wrong reasons.

you made good points.

I think your main point was newbies over complicate things and should just S/B/R.

my point is if newbies didnt over complicate things, they wouldnt learn, and wouldnt make it past the first year.

sorry if I offended anyone in the process.

Edited by cusetri 2009-06-18 1:56 PM
2009-06-18 1:54 PM
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Subject: RE: The State of Triathlon Training - Special note to the Novice
tkd.teacher - 2009-06-18 12:38 PM
I base my perceptions on a lifetime in athletics, a college degree in kinesiology/coaching, many years of teaching/coaching/competing, and compare what I know with what you say. If what you say conflicts with my knowledge or experience, I research it. If I'm wrong, I adjust my knowledge accordingly (Did that yesterday because of the creatine thread, I had erroneous times for the length of some of the energy cycles). My perception of you is based on how much of what you say is either wrong or forces me to think and adjust my thinking, or agrees with my knowledge/experience.

This is a little bit of a hot button topic with me (can you tell?

I don't have the time to ascertain all that you mention above when determining what advice I should consider from a FORUM POST. If I were to be actually making an important decision such as choosing a coach, I'd certainly consider the same types of things you mention.

Are you intentionally ignoring my original post when I said and am now repeating for the third time, "I know that one's ability isn't always the best measure of their ability to advise but it's at least something that has some validity."


and to watch people dismiss training advice from someone just because "they aren't fast" is imbecilic at best.

"imbecilic"? I've been called a lot of names in the past but that's a new one... Plenty of solid advice exists from fast people in racing (or successful people in business). If I choose to limit my consideration to those people that's my decision and it doesn't make me "imbecilic". Trust me, I'm far from it.
2009-06-18 1:54 PM
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Subject: RE: The State of Triathlon Training - Special note to the Novice

jesse_d - 2009-06-18 2:48 PM
On a serious note I really don't think my times are that great. My biggest fault is that I am a horrible OWS - so that really affects the rest of my race. I am working on it.

Dude...to a lot of us - esp. those who AREN'T Tri Talk regulars, you ARE fast! I can only hope for the day that I might be able to run a 3:09:XX marathon!

2009-06-18 1:58 PM
in reply to: #2227224

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Subject: RE: The State of Triathlon Training - Special note to the Novice
cusetri - 2009-06-18 11:41 AM I feel bad and I dont think I am clear on my point.

when I first started running 3 years ago, all I did was run.  that was it.  Literally.  took the advice you commonly hear from runners.  Run.  Lots.

put on my $39.99 Dick's Sporting Good Specials and ran.

around the block.  done.  2 times tomorrow. done.

run hard.  run harder.  harder is gooder.  shine splints, run through the pain.

do some sprints.  you'll get faster.  just run.  run lots. 



after 5-6 months of that, I thought, there's gotta be an easier way.

the research began.  got a training plan.  went to Fleet Feet instead of Dicks.  joined BT.  asked questions.  got advice.

did so so so much more than just run.  lots.


so when I say training is not simple, I mean from the standpoint of what is required for an absolute newbie to understand it is simple.  It took me around 1.5 years, AFTER I starting getting serious.  It doesnt change the fact that training is simple.  But it does change the intent of the OP posts which is, Newbies complicate things.   

so, yes, Breck, I can say, with 100% confidence, if all I did 3 years ago, was run.  lots.  I would not be where I am today.

I would still be 260 lbs, and I'd be walking around thinking, "runners have great genes....I tried running and got hurt after 6 months."

so when someone says, newbies over complicate it, I think GOOD.  complicate it.  Seek out information.  Learn intervals arent necessary.  Because if a newbie just steps out their door and runs, they aint gonna make it.





Ok, I see where you are coming from now.

I'd attribute the original shin splints to the $39 shoes and ramping up too quickly. :p

I think the difference is in perception. By all means, n00bs should seek out all the information about a sport they can, knowledge in ANYthing is power. The smarter an athlete you are, the better an athlete you are. That doesn't necessarily mean that they have to go out and start DOING everything they've read about, which is what a lot of n00bs do.

And you're right, if you just suddenly step out the door and start running, without "complicating" it by the learning process, then yeah, yer gonna get hurt. I did that in MMA, I figured after 15 years in martial arts, I could do this, right? Yeah, I'm John, nice to meet you, can you hand me my a$$ again? Embarassed

John
2009-06-18 1:58 PM
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Subject: RE: The State of Triathlon Training - Special note to the Novice
JohnnyKay - 2009-06-18 1:52 PM
cusetri - 2009-06-18 2:41 PM
But it does change the intent of the OP posts which is, Newbies complicate things.   



I don't think that's his point.  "Newbies" SHOULD ask questions to learn.  The problem is so much conflicting advice causes them to think everything is complicated when it is not.  You could have learned 99% of all you needed by following this:

Run more, gradually.  Run mostly easy.  Be patient.  Eventually, run a bit harder.  Time & consistency outweigh any fancy workouts or periodization plans. 

Now, you could read a book about why this is so.  And you could study for the rest of your life about the most effective ways to get the body to respond to stimulus.  But the "newbie" has plenty of time to delve into all of that if they want.  And plenty of people around here are interested enough to share their thoughts on it if asked.  Of course, that may quickly have them thinking things are complicated again. 
Bingo! And my comments were about the state of training in general. I believe there is this "one size fits all" attitude by so many coaches and advice givers and that is not to the benefit of people starting out. There is plenty of good advice on this board and others. But, there is plenty of bad advice too. I'm not sure how the novice deciphers it all to tell you the truth. I guess they do what I did and just make a lot of mistakes and hopefully it works itself out.


2009-06-18 2:02 PM
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2009-06-18 2:03 PM
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Subject: RE: The State of Triathlon Training - Special note to the Novice
breckview - 2009-06-18 11:54 AM I don't have the time to ascertain all that you mention above when determining what advice I should consider from a FORUM POST. If I were to be actually making an important decision such as choosing a coach, I'd certainly consider the same types of things you mention. Are you intentionally ignoring my original post when I said and am now repeating for the third time, "I know that one's ability isn't always the best measure of their ability to advise but it's at least something that has some validity."


Nope, not ignoring it, missed it when I was reading. Sorry!

"imbecilic"? I've been called a lot of names in the past but that's a new one... Plenty of solid advice exists from fast people in racing (or successful people in business). If I choose to limit my consideration to those people that's my decision and it doesn't make me "imbecilic". Trust me, I'm far from it.


Yeah, I know you are far from it. I've read enough of your posts to know that. That was more an emphasis thing.

John
2009-06-18 2:18 PM
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Subject: RE: The State of Triathlon Training - Special note to the Novice
So, should I be doing more bricks?

Sorry, couldn't resist.  Good post to begin with.  If anything, the discourse that followed shows that even though there is a common triathlon theme here everyone's relationship with training and racing is deeply personal (separate thread perhaps on why).
2009-06-18 2:22 PM
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Subject: RE: The State of Triathlon Training - Special note to the Novice
Daremo - 2009-06-18 2:30 PM

Hypothetical, but shows my thoughts on it ........

I'd rather listen to the 250 lb. guy who coaches a 15:00 high school 5ker over anything that the 5ker has to say.

Even more so, I'd rather listen to the coach who took a relative newb to his/her first HIM finish injury free and happy than an athlete who had a lot of experience racing and puts up 4:XX numbers in the same HIM.

Performance does NOT equal coaching ability.  It does give a little bit more credence to things a coach might put out there if they preface it with "This is what has worked for me and others I have coached, so let's try it out and see how it goes."

Personally my long race "batting average" is not that great.  But I bet I know a lot more about limitations and training needs as a result of those races compared to someone who has never experienced a bad distance race.  And I can prepare my athletes accordingly based on sound training philosophies AND my experiences.

Ask anyone who has worked with me (yes, there are only a small handful so far), my plans are very simple and down to earth.  There is no need to overcomplicate it when you are working with athletes with a younger "training age" compared to the more experienced athletes.  Endurance sports take years and years to develop.  7 - 10 years to peak for most.  It IS very simple.  Train smart, stay healthy, you will get faster even if all you ever do is recovery efforts every time.



I agree 1000%.  Performance does not equal coaching ability.  Information does.

I either want to see that you weigh 250 lbs and coach 16 y/os to 15 min 5 ks, or I want to see that you are accomplished in the sport.

All coaches that have a good rep do it.  go to a web site, they either have their athletes listed, their results listed or both. 



2009-06-18 2:30 PM
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Subject: RE: The State of Triathlon Training - Special note to the Novice
jesse_d - 2009-06-18 1:48 PM

I posted to Bryan privately after he posted because I really wanted him to know that this thread isn't about me. I'll make my post to him public.

(Not exact but pretty close as I edited a few sentences before I sent it to him.)

"The thread on State of Triathlon Training isn’t about me so I don’t want to put too much energy into justify myself in this particular case given its relevance to the post.

I’m pretty candid about my strengths and weaknesses! (all modesty aside they are pretty great).

Marathon – Disney January 2009 3:09. I’m faster than that now.

Bike – I usually do a 50+ steady state ride every other Friday – you are welcome to join me – Melbourne, Fl. I usually do this ride after a short swim or run (6 miles).

Swim – I do 10 X 100 (30 sec rest) intervals every Tuesday in the pool. My OWS is horrible compared to my pool swimming. I am getting better every race but my technique just isn’t translating well in the OW yet. I am seeking coaching on this aspect of my training. I don’t keep logs online.

I have an excel sheet with my training for the last year. I’ll be happy to send it to you if you would like – just to gander at. I don’t know what the correct term for poor nutrition given the conditions but that is what happened in my first HIM. After analyzing everything I believe it was a lack of salt. My back was in serious pain by mile 40 and I had to sit up and lay down quite a bit. This gradually worked itself to my stomach. I basically walked the run portion which took me close to 3 hours. Just a lack of experience. I’m hoping to correct those issues moving forward. "

Again, I didn't give any real advice so not sure how this becomes about my times. But, if anyone is in my local area and want to come train with me and then they can post back what my training times are I'll be happy to oblige.

On a serious note I really don't think my times are that great. My biggest fault is that I am a horrible OWS - so that really affects the rest of my race. I am working on it.


Yes, and I appreciated the opportunity to clarify what I said. I mentioned to Jesse that his post was well said and worthy of a good discussion, but I think he would have been better served not trying to validate his opinion with results. I think we all could have recognized that his view point was an interesting one and we wouldn't have run off the rails so much. I do think it is fair game to question someone's experience to opine about training issue's but he wasn't speaking in absoluts and his comments were wll tempered.


2009-06-18 2:30 PM
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Subject: RE: The State of Triathlon Training - Special note to the Novice
With my whole couple of months on here.... Don't a lot of newbies ask questions not so they can get new information (hopefully, they already did a thread search), but so they can get some affirmation that they are on the right track and to be encouraged to persevere through the ups and downs?
2009-06-18 2:35 PM
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Subject: RE: The State of Triathlon Training - Special note to the Novice
eabeam - 2009-06-18 3:30 PM With my whole couple of months on here.... Don't a lot of newbies ask questions not so they can get new information (hopefully, they already did a thread search), but so they can get some affirmation that they are on the right track and to be encouraged to persevere through the ups and downs?


Absolutely!  Patience is an easy word to say, but often a challenging concept to put into practice.  Especially for a group of generally overachieving, overanalytical, "get it done yesterday" individuals like many triathletes. 
2009-06-18 2:40 PM
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Subject: RE: The State of Triathlon Training - Special note to the Novice
bryancd - 2009-06-18 2:30 PM
jesse_d - 2009-06-18 1:48 PM I posted to Bryan privately after he posted because I really wanted him to know that this thread isn't about me. I'll make my post to him public.

(Not exact but pretty close as I edited a few sentences before I sent it to him.)

"The thread on State of Triathlon Training isn’t about me so I don’t want to put too much energy into justify myself in this particular case given its relevance to the post.

I’m pretty candid about my strengths and weaknesses! (all modesty aside they are pretty great).

Marathon – Disney January 2009 3:09. I’m faster than that now.

Bike – I usually do a 50+ steady state ride every other Friday – you are welcome to join me – Melbourne, Fl. I usually do this ride after a short swim or run (6 miles).

Swim – I do 10 X 100 (30 sec rest) intervals every Tuesday in the pool. My OWS is horrible compared to my pool swimming. I am getting better every race but my technique just isn’t translating well in the OW yet. I am seeking coaching on this aspect of my training. I don’t keep logs online.

I have an excel sheet with my training for the last year. I’ll be happy to send it to you if you would like – just to gander at. I don’t know what the correct term for poor nutrition given the conditions but that is what happened in my first HIM. After analyzing everything I believe it was a lack of salt. My back was in serious pain by mile 40 and I had to sit up and lay down quite a bit. This gradually worked itself to my stomach. I basically walked the run portion which took me close to 3 hours. Just a lack of experience. I’m hoping to correct those issues moving forward. "

Again, I didn't give any real advice so not sure how this becomes about my times. But, if anyone is in my local area and want to come train with me and then they can post back what my training times are I'll be happy to oblige.

On a serious note I really don't think my times are that great. My biggest fault is that I am a horrible OWS - so that really affects the rest of my race. I am working on it.
Yes, and I appreciated the opportunity to clarify what I said. I mentioned to Jesse that his post was well said and worthy of a good discussion, but I think he would have been better served not trying to validate his opinion with results. I think we all could have recognized that his view point was an interesting one and we wouldn't have run off the rails so much. I do think it is fair game to question someone's experience to opine about training issue's but he wasn't speaking in absoluts and his comments were wll tempered.


Sure - I agree that there was some sense of validation there with times as a way to counter-balance the fact that I was pretty self-deprecating from the start (min exp, not coaching sort of thing). 

And yes, those really are my training times!  And yes I am great!  Laughing  

I'll wait 6 months and repost (with no times) this again after everyone forgets and maybe we can get a more lively discussion on what the best option for the novice is - besides paying $49.95 for a stock training plan off the Internet on day 1.  Wink



Edited by jesse_d 2009-06-18 2:41 PM
2009-06-18 2:41 PM
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Subject: RE: The State of Triathlon Training - Special note to the Novice
tcovert - 2009-06-18 10:20 AM

And X2 to the earlier comment to the OP that he is, in fact, plenty fast for an amateur.  (The false modesty might keep people from reading your post...it almost did for me:  When people who are clearly capable of an AG podium finish--or better--describe themselves as "not fast", it makes me wonder about the validity of their other perceptions.  In this case, though, I thought most everything was valid.  Good post.)


Regarding the whole "false modesty" thing... as I've climbed in the amatuer ranks I've noticed that this attitude is extremely common among FOP athletes, myself included.  Its not that we don't realize that we're "fast" when compared to the general population.  Its more of a combination of not wanting to look like an arrogant a-hole and our own internal sense that no performance is ever quite "good enough".  You're only as fast as your next race.

2009-06-18 3:02 PM
in reply to: #2226417

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Subject: RE: The State of Triathlon Training - Special note to the Novice
Nah, stick around now Jesse and enjoy the fun!
I used to post a lot of beginner advice and had a bad habit of not qualifying it better and speaking too much in absoluts. I have since learend to temper what I say much bettre. I think you have already done a better job than I ever did back then, so keep contributing!


2009-06-18 3:04 PM
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Subject: RE: The State of Triathlon Training - Special note to the Novice
cusetri - 2009-06-18 1:22 PM
Performance does not equal coaching ability.  Information does.


At the risk of opening a whole 'nother can of worms...

One of the things I do for a living is prove/disprove published financial theories, algorithms, etc. I limit what I consider to theories that *can* be proven with ~100% confidence because those keep me as busy as I desire. Relatively little information gets past that filter. Of those that do pass that filter, I've found in the last 20 years of doing this that less than half of the published theories are successful by the author's own definitions. They are filled with math errors, bad assumptions, outright fraud, etc. Many of these are subjects that almost everyone in business just takes for granted as true, but no one has ever bothered to actually "check the math".

Long story short, just because someone writes "information" in a book/magazine/class/forum/whatever, does not make it true. My experience has made me a skeptic about most everything that's published.
2009-06-18 3:09 PM
in reply to: #2227458

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Subject: RE: The State of Triathlon Training - Special note to the Novice
breckview - 2009-06-18 4:04 PM
cusetri - 2009-06-18 1:22 PM Performance does not equal coaching ability.  Information does.
At the risk of opening a whole 'nother can of worms... One of the things I do for a living is prove/disprove published financial theories, algorithms, etc. I limit what I consider to theories that *can* be proven with ~100% confidence because those keep me as busy as I desire. Relatively little information gets past that filter. Of those that do pass that filter, I've found in the last 20 years of doing this that less than half of the published theories are successful by the author's own definitions. They are filled with math errors, bad assumptions, outright fraud, etc. Many of these are subjects that almost everyone in business just takes for granted as true, but no one has ever bothered to actually "check the math". Long story short, just because someone writes "information" in a book/magazine/class/forum/whatever, does not make it true. My experience has made me a skeptic about most everything that's published.


I agree 100%.

I was just saying I want to see something (which I think you did as well), and if I want, the stuff i'm after is mush easier to verify than what you descibe.

its doesnt take long for me to find coach XYZ finished 10th OA at IMLP or that Coach Hefty Pants at the Hershy High has 2 kids that go sub 15 in the 5k.....
2009-06-18 3:21 PM
in reply to: #2227099

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Subject: RE: The State of Triathlon Training - Special note to the Novice
cusetri - 2009-06-18 2:05 PM
JohnnyKay - 2009-06-18 1:58 PM
cusetri - 2009-06-18 1:45 PM I think what Breckview is saying that in a world of unknowns, you need something to backup what you are saying.

I don't know who Bryan is.  but if I look at his logs/RRs, I'm gonna follow his advice.

If gordo makes a post, I'm not gonna check his logs, I know who he is.


There are other, better ways to decide how heavily to discount advice being provided is my point.  Bryan was fast when he first arrived at BT.  I'm more likely to consider some of what he has to offer today than I was then.  And it has nothing to do with his results.

The OP's post has plenty of validity regardless of how good a triathlete he is or isn't.


Oh, and training IS simple.  In fact, so is racing.  But perhaps I'm not fast enough to be listened to.  Undecided


so your saying year 1 you kept things as smiple as you do know?  didnt realize training was an instinct some are born with. 

breathing is simple. 

training becomes simples after months or years of realizing you dont have to make it so complicated--this takes time for 99% of the population.

and your times are plenty fast for me to listen to your advice.  If you knew how much I looked at your logs, you'd gt a restraining order on me....Smile

point is, I dont know you, so you have to be able to back up what you are saying. 

and you dont even have to be "fast"  If you went from 2:00/100 to 1:40/100 in 6 months, i'm gonna listen to how you improved.  but if I cannt see this is a detailed log or something (not some spew in a post), its gonna be tough for me to follow what you are saying.


I went from 2:00/100 (during a 500), to 1:40, in about that time by swimming lots.  I guess I'm one of those where swimming lots of sets has worked out, but I wouldn't say it would work for anyone.  BTW, listening to breckview about the bilateral breathing allowed me to go hard enough to drop 1' off of my working set 500 time.   
2009-06-18 3:24 PM
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2009-06-18 3:28 PM
in reply to: #2227458

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Subject: RE: The State of Triathlon Training - Special note to the Novice
breckview - 2009-06-18 1:04 PM
cusetri - 2009-06-18 1:22 PM Performance does not equal coaching ability.  Information does.
At the risk of opening a whole 'nother can of worms... One of the things I do for a living is prove/disprove published financial theories, algorithms, etc. I limit what I consider to theories that *can* be proven with ~100% confidence because those keep me as busy as I desire. Relatively little information gets past that filter. Of those that do pass that filter, I've found in the last 20 years of doing this that less than half of the published theories are successful by the author's own definitions. They are filled with math errors, bad assumptions, outright fraud, etc. Many of these are subjects that almost everyone in business just takes for granted as true, but no one has ever bothered to actually "check the math". Long story short, just because someone writes "information" in a book/magazine/class/forum/whatever, does not make it true. My experience has made me a skeptic about most everything that's published.


Now see, this is where I am less cynical than you, I believe everyone after I have personally verified it myself


2009-06-18 3:35 PM
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Subject: RE: The State of Triathlon Training - Special note to the Novice
I'll just say in my six years in the sport I think I've learned the most from people just slightly better or more experienced than me.

Those are the folks who seem to be able to relate the most to where I'm at in terms of fitness and ability and are able to express their tips in the most meaningful ways.


2009-06-19 7:53 AM
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Subject: RE: The State of Triathlon Training - Special note to the Novice
bryancd - 2009-06-18 4:02 PM I used to post a lot of beginner advice and had a bad habit of not qualifying it better and speaking too much in absoluts. I have since learend to temper what I say much bettre.


But you still haven't learned how to spell ........... Money mouth
2009-06-19 8:53 AM
in reply to: #2226417

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Subject: RE: The State of Triathlon Training - Special note to the Novice
jesse_d - 2009-06-18 9:32 AM

Every now and then I get the itch to post something that is a little long winded and that I know some people won’t like.  So, I ask myself why even bother.  Inevitably the answer to that question, I believe, is that any insights I have will hopefully help some. 

When I first started researching training I poured over everything I could find to learn about the best way to do this or that.  In the end what you realize is that there are no clear cut answers.  Even if you go to a coach you aren’t like to get the “right answer.” 

Let me preface what I’m about to say about training by stating that I’m not a coach and have never been professionally coached.  I’ve been doing triathlons for less than 18 months.  I’m not super fast and haven’t raced in a full IM.  I just completed my first HIM and bonked from poor nutrition.

Currently I am about a 3:00 marathoner.

Currently, on average, I can pace a 56 mile ride at 23 mph

Currently, I swim my 100’s @ 1:23 ish.

So, not fast and not super slow.  I have made a lot of progress in my first year.  And, overall, I am pretty happy with where I am all things considered.  I’m learning all the time and hopefully I will continue to improve.  Onward and upward!

One of the most discussed topics on the boards, magazines and other articles I have read focuses on “how to train to get faster.”  Really, isn’t that the broad question that just about everyone from beginner to expert asks at one time or another – if not every day!

The questions to this topic come in many forms –

1)      How do I get faster?

2)      How much should I train?

3)      How many intervals should I do?

4)      Should I do periodization?

5)      Should I do more intervals?

6)      What % of XYZ should I run, bike and swim at?

7)      Volume vs. Intensity

8)      I am having problems with ABC.

9)      Etc, etc, etc.

My recent realization, and hopefully the realization of many coaches, is that there isn’t one answer that should be given to any of these questions.  The answers should be as varied and diverse as the athlete in question.  So, it really baffles me that people/coaches often answer these questions without knowing much about the person.  Or give blanket answers as if it applies to every one alike.

A classic example of this is the “should I do intervals to get faster” question?  And the answer that most people state is “yes, you should do xyz intervals for xyz length of time.  And you’ll notice yourself getting faster.”

Then there is the classic running debate, “Volume vs. Intensity.”  Where one half of the panel says do LSD at 70 miles per week.  And the other half says “you can get the same results doing 45 miles per week with more intensity.”

I AM HERE TO STATE THAT I BELIEVE IT IS ALL HOGWASH!

I am not saying that the above statements are wrong.  What I am saying is that you can’t give everyone the same advice.  You can’t download an 8, 12 or 20 week long program and expect it is good for you.  You shouldn’t go to a coach that doesn’t do a complete interview and assessment of you.  In hindsight, I believe that the “one plan fits all” approach and mentality is where we are at in this sport and it is ridiculous!

You have to look at every individual differently.  Someone just starting out in running that is severely overweight shouldn’t be on the same 8 week training program as someone that used to be a college track runner 10 years ago and is only 10 pounds overweight.  They are going to progress differently. 

I can tell you some VERY general things that I have learned from my own training.

1)      *Most* people don’t need to worry about interval training for the first 3 – 6 months of starting to train.  The initialization period should be used to get your muscles used to the different sports.  Your body is going through a lot of changes.  You’ll drop a lot of weight.  You’ll learn a lot by doing research.  Take this time to just get comfortable with everything.  Put on the miles slowly.  Work on technique.

2)      Then I think there is another appx 6 months where *most* people can start to increase their mileage.  And this is also the period where people can introduce moderate interval training.

3)      Then I think there is a 3rd period where those that become more serious will gain benefit with harder intervals, more miles, and adding some rest.

4)      Lastly, and this is the point where I am at now, comes the time for periodization.  I’m getting to the point where in order to see the gains that I want I have to workout really hard on some days.  The only way to work out really hard on those days is to take adequate rest on other days and start periodization. 

Shoot, it took me almost 18 months to come to this realization.  I was busy trying to come up with the perfect schedule or the perfect number of times to do this or that run or bike.  Well, the true answer is that your body is fluid.  Your progress is fluid.  And your training should be fluid.  It will change.  You must adapt.  Maybe you’ll hit period 4 up above faster than the norm.   Maybe you already have a great base and only need 3 months in period 1.  The thing is no one stop shop solution is going to tell you that. 
So, the point is if you’re a novice take advice with a grain of salt.  In hindsight, you’ll find that you were probably over-thinking just about every aspect of training.  And in time you’ll realize that training probably isn’t as complex as everyone wants to make it out to be.   And for the advice givers please stop and ask yourself if the advice you are giving is valid to everyone before posting it.  If not, just resist the inexorable urge to push submit on the bottom-middle of your screen. 
Thanks for listening.   
Shoot, it took me almost 18 months to come to this realization.  I was busy trying to come up with the perfect schedule or the perfect number of times to do this or that run or bike.  Well, the true answer is that your body is fluid.  Your progress is fluid.  And your training should be fluid.  It will change.  You must adapt.  Maybe you’ll hit period 4 up above faster than the norm.   Maybe you already have a great base and only need 3 months in period 1.  The thing is no one stop shop solution is going to tell you that. 

So, the point is if you’re a novice take advice with a grain of salt.  In hindsight, you’ll find that you were probably over-thinking just about every aspect of training.  And in time you’ll realize that training probably isn’t as complex as everyone wants to make it out to be.   And for the advice givers please stop and ask yourself if the advice you are giving is valid to everyone before posting it.  If not, just resist the inexorable urge to push submit on the bottom-middle of your screen. 

Thanks for listening.   

 



I agree with some points of your pots but not all. In general I do agree training shouldn't be complicated in the sense people just need to do the work, they need to be consistent and they need to be patient. Fitness gains will happen over time with work and consistency nothing much more to it.

However certain generalizations you made are just that; I agree it is quite common to find bad advice on public forums but you also get the same on magazines, websites, and even in popular books that just because thei include the work "bible" in it people assume what it is presented in it must be accurate. However in most every forum there are very experienced both: athletes and coaches who more often than not provide sound and great advice for beginners. The problem is that in most instances those of us evidence based coaches have to go against the millions myths, snake oil and anecdotal experiences that plague this and many sports.

In terms of your recent realization; yes indeed there is no one size fits all and anyone who calims that is just trying to sell you something. That been said there is no reason why some of the basic training concepts suchs a load, periodization, specificty can apply to all athletes, the difference will be when, how much, at what degree, etc. The main issue is not with some of the principles but with those applying the principles and their lack of knowledge and undertanding about such concepts.

We often hear athletes/coaches talking about lactate threshold, periodization, tapering, etc and sadly when you dig in deeper  they have little to no idea as to what these terms really mean or why they can be important for their training. When coaches do this it is not suprising athletes in particular beginners grow confused as their is a sea of misinformation out there. I know because I was taught some of this myths or taught some of this concepts incorrectly and incomplete at the USAT certification clinic; imagine is if the sport governing body used to (it seems the current certification is much better) teach their 1st line of defense (level 1 coaches) these kind of things, well then it is easy to understand why some of this misinformation spread around so fast. Of course that is no excuse for coaches for not keep on educating themselves and be accountable for the advice they provide though.

Finally some of the points you criticized are valid, still you suggest correctly the one size fits all approach should be avoided yet you go onto provide certain suggestions which fall into this category

As I coach I see different kind of athletes; those who want a full time coach, those who want some help (general plans/oline support) and those who want to do things on their own yet seek advice on public forums. In terms of responsbility in all honesty I don't own anything to anyone but those athletes who chose me for my coaching services; for them I am available as much as possible. Still just a few days ago I posted just 5 years I came to this site as a beginner and by spending time here I learned a bit more about the sport. Yes I got bad advice but also I got great one.

 For that reason I choose to stick around and help when possible to those who seek advice here. Sometimes the advice is via general plans, sometimes is general advice, sometimes is specific advice if I know the athlete more closely. In the end I can only provide some general advice and the OP has to to the leg work to find ways to apply that advice to their training. I tend to site sources on my post, suggest articles/books, etc. Giving advice on a public forums is not a bad thing, but as the OP you have to understand not all advice will be sound or adequate for your needs and as the adviser you have to understand the audience will usually be a lot bigger than those posting on the thread as a lot of people lurk. For that reason I've got into arguments in which I dispute or debate opinions or anecdotal experienced presented as evidence...

Edited by JorgeM 2009-06-19 9:22 AM
2009-06-19 9:11 AM
in reply to: #2227091

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Subject: RE: The State of Triathlon Training - Special note to the Novice
breckview - 2009-06-18 1:03 PM
tkd.teacher - 2009-06-18 11:26 AM So, if I was giving running advice, and all you saw was my 1/2 mary PR (A woeful 2:3x:xx), you'd immediately discount it? Hrm. Good to know.

John

No offense but yes I would. In terms of running advice, why should I listen to someone who I don't know and has proved nothing to me as opposed to my buddy Dick Dime who went from the couch to 1:25 in the recent Kansas 70.3 1/2 mary leg?


I think that is a poor metric to follow. There are great athletes in spite of their training and some others because of their training. That simple means that because some has the natural talent to excel in a given sport that doesn't grant them the experience, knowledge and expertise to understand as to why they are so good and or what it takes to help someone else to reach their goals.

If I had the chose to have a sit down to pick their brain and learn as much as I can from the triathlons I would rather sit with Brett Sutton someone who has never done an IM instead of sitting with Mark Allen, which is a great athlete but clearly lacks the knowledge when it comes to coaching no matter what masses want to believe.

I would rather sit down with Jack Daniels and learn from his coaching insights than any of the many great runners he has coached. I would rather ask JohnnyKay for tri advice than from many of of the fast athletes here on BT that are fast and have no idea why. 

Unfortunately many athletes in triathlon have the same line of reasoning and assume fast athletes = good coaches. They assume because they are fast they understand how to help others, physiology, concepts, etc and in most cases that's far from the truth. You see this athletes doing crazy training because that's what works for the "coach" as a fast athlete but have no idea if it is the adequate approach for his/her athlete. This 'coaches' are popping up all over the place and it is easy to indenty, in ther websites they'll tout their own results, those of their athletes not so much

For me I don't care if a person is a world champion or a coach potato, that doesn't tell me how much they know about endurance training or not, the content and substance of what they have to say does. I don't want to know how good of an athlete you are, I want to know how many athletes you have succesfully guided/adviced to achieve their athletic goals...
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