General Discussion Triathlon Talk » shoes: trainers vs racers is there a difference? Rss Feed  
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2009-06-24 8:10 AM

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Subject: shoes: trainers vs racers is there a difference?
i know there is alot of debates on shoes, but my question is a little different, I basically want to find out if companies like newton or zoot who make a specific trainer and specific racer really makes a difference?  any thoughts?

from what i have heard most shoes should last 300-500 miles max, even if they still look decent its time to change them.  to avoid risk of injury.  some links below with examples. 

Trainers:
http://www.newtonrunning.com/newton-products/the-shoes/mens-shoes/men-trainers

Racers:
http://www.newtonrunning.com/newton-products/the-shoes/mens-shoes/men-racers

 Zoot does the same:
http://www.zootsports.com/race/

 ultra race and ultra tt (trainers)



Edited by trix 2009-06-24 8:11 AM


2009-06-24 8:13 AM
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Subject: RE: shoes: trainers vs racers is there a difference?
Yes, big difference in my opinion.

A "training" shoe will have more cushion and support built in and those will last in general about 300-ish miles (give or take depending on the type of runner you are, terrain you run on and your weight).

A "racing" shoe offers less cushioning and a little bit more flexibility in the material.  They can put a lot of strain on people not used to running in them.  And they also typically only last about 100 - 150 miles.
2009-06-24 8:22 AM
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Subject: RE: shoes: trainers vs racers is there a difference?
Daremo - 2009-06-24 8:13 AM Yes, big difference in my opinion.

A "training" shoe will have more cushion and support built in and those will last in general about 300-ish miles (give or take depending on the type of runner you are, terrain you run on and your weight).

A "racing" shoe offers less cushioning and a little bit more flexibility in the material.  They can put a lot of strain on people not used to running in them.  And they also typically only last about 100 - 150 miles.


rick,

would you ever use a shoes that you train with in a race?

say there wasn't the distinction between racers and trainers?
2009-06-24 8:25 AM
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Subject: RE: shoes: trainers vs racers is there a difference?
There is certainly nothing wrong with using the same shoe for everything.  It does make things easier for upkeep and remembering how many miles are on a shoe!  Some people (usually lighter/faster runners) will even use racing flats for running most of the time.

I personally have 3 sets of light weight shoes (two Zoot, one Saucony) that I use for racing.  And just one pair of regular shoes for training and typically another new pair in a box for when those get worn out.  During marathon training, I'll go through a set of shoes every two months.
2009-06-24 8:27 AM
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Subject: RE: shoes: trainers vs racers is there a difference?
I have always wondered about this as well. Obviously there are reasons that racing flats exist, but I have been afraid to get any... I am afraid of stress fractures, shin splints, etc. I always thought they were more for serious track athletes or elites. Is there any reason for the average MOP triathlete to buy racing flats?

Edited by cpfint 2009-06-24 8:28 AM
2009-06-24 8:31 AM
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Subject: RE: shoes: trainers vs racers is there a difference?
Trainers = clunky, but keep me from getting injured

Flats = greatness, but I can't do all my training in them because I get injured.

I've got asics Warp speed and old Racers that I use for triathlon racing sprint through half no problem. Then I have the Adidas adios, which I can't use for triathlon, but it's great shoe for 10ks-half marathons. I'd wear it on a full too, but I don't plan on doing a full any time soon.


2009-06-24 9:40 AM
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Subject: RE: shoes: trainers vs racers is there a difference?
I am a weak runner & I'm slow, so take this fwiw.  I train exclusively on flats.   I started having far less aches & pains when i switched to a shoe that is far less shoe.  I use Brooks T6s and I love them.  Longest run in them was yesterday and it was 3 hours.  I'm looking into trying the Brooks Ghost, but i've been thrilled w/ the T6 flat. 
2009-06-24 11:38 AM
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Subject: RE: shoes: trainers vs racers is there a difference?
There is a whole separate argument/thought on the fact that modern shoe designs actually CAUSE more running based injuries than they prevent.  In that they have been designed for the overstriding crowd and mess up what should be a very natural body movement.

The whole "barefoot" crowd and such are believers in that.
2009-06-24 11:56 AM
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Subject: RE: shoes: trainers vs racers is there a difference?

I have several pairs of shoes; four are lightweight and I have another two pairs of trainers (until I retire them).

Two pairs of the lightweight shoes I use for racing only (Adidas Evo spikeless x-country flat and Adizero RC's) depending on the course conditions.  My other lightweight shoes (Adizero Breeze and Bostons) I rotate through as my everyday training shoe along with my regular trainers.  Once I retire these trainers, I am going to replace them with more lightweight shoes as I've found that I greatly prefer to run in a minimalist shoe.

Having said that, I would not recommend someone train full time in a lightweight shoe until they have gotten used to them; if all you've ever run in is a regular trainer, it will be a big difference to go to a lightweight shoe.

For an idea in the differences, my RC's are about 185g, Boston's about 270g and my regular trainers are about 350g.

Shane

2009-06-24 12:42 PM
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Subject: RE: shoes: trainers vs racers is there a difference?
there is definitely a difference, and as others have already stated, you probably wont use racers frequently, but you COULD as long as they dont cause you any problems. personally, i weigh about 210 and i train in the brooks adrenaline because they work well with my mild overpronation. i always assumed that i wasn't a candidate for racers because of my weight. one day i was talked into trying the brooks racer st 4's which provide a minimal amount of stability when compared to most racers. i was skeptical, but they have proved to be a great fit for me, i have had no problems with them whatsoever. compared to my cement block like adrenalines, the racers are feather light. so yes, there is a difference, and i would personally suggest trying them.
2009-06-24 1:51 PM
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Subject: RE: shoes: trainers vs racers is there a difference?

Racing in a lighter shoe definitely makes a difference.  I used x-country racing flats/spikes in high school (probably more simplistic than the Zoot/Newton shoes you pointed out).  Training with heavy Sauconys all week long, then switching to the flats/spikes for race day made my legs a lot less tired during the race b/c there was a lot less weight for my feet to pick up stride after stride for 3.1 miles. 

However, at the time, I was pretty fast.  I wasn't winning the race, but I was placing for my team at 20 & high change to 22 & low change mins. 

Today, I don't think my 26 min 5k needs a racing flat...and a flat alone certainly isn't going to take me back to my high school times.  There are other things that will make a much bigger difference to take on first...like significant speed training...hills (lots of hills!)...mileage higher than my current 15/wk...the 10 lbs I carry now that I didn't at 16, etc. 

So, I think it is worth your while if you are really fast and close to placing...or if you are able to handle and prefer less of a shoe for regular everyday training.  For Joe-schmoe (or Jess-schmoe), I don't think special racing flats in addition to regular trainers are going to do much. 



Edited by jessm 2009-06-24 1:52 PM


2009-06-24 2:08 PM
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Subject: RE: shoes: trainers vs racers is there a difference?
I don't really care whether they do much for me or not. I just like running in them.  I'm slowly introducing them to my normal training, in hopes that I'll eventually be able to ditch the trainers altogether.

But they do do something.  As far as I can tell, they give me a few seconds per mile.  I have yet to do a race in them, however, because I've found that unlike my trainers, they tear my feet up when I run in them sockless.
2009-06-24 2:33 PM
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Subject: RE: shoes: trainers vs racers is there a difference?
I have started making the shift towards lighter/less padding. I used to run exclusively in new balance 990 series. You know, the giant grey super padded thingies. I did ok running and did my first marathon in them. I wasnt very fast. I have made the gradual switch this year to saucony fast twitch and tangent. The shoes are much lighter and I havent noticed any difference in injury/feeling. I have noticed a difference in my stride as I can do a shorter stride with quick turnover much easier. I have also noticed my running times dropping as well. I used to sprain my ankles quite a bit and I think it was partially because I was running on such "high" padding shoes. When I did twist my ankle the extra distance between ankle and ground created more force and hurt me more. I did tweak my ankle in them running trails a few weeks back but it did not entail the purple yellow green ankle I was used to.
2009-06-24 2:42 PM
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Subject: RE: shoes: trainers vs racers is there a difference?
I too have read the research that Daremo refers to and in my own experience, my running issues/problems have almost disappeared as I have progressed to less and less support shoes. The last half marathon I trained and raced for was done 100% in Nike free.
2009-06-24 4:11 PM
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Subject: RE: shoes: trainers vs racers is there a difference?
This minimalist movement is very interesting. Is there anything to suggest that less shoe may not be as good for a heavier person? Or, is it all relative?

I'm a "neutral" runner and I've always used a cushioned shoe (Asics Nimbus). I also use green superfeet. I would like to try something lighter but I'm hesitant. I currently weigh 225.

Edited by jeffy_101 2009-06-24 4:12 PM
2009-06-24 6:19 PM
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Subject: RE: shoes: trainers vs racers is there a difference?
Kinda curious about this myself.  I've always run in a stability shoe (currently wearing Brooks Adrenaline GTS9)...simply because I've been told that it's what I need because I have plantar fasciitis in my left foot.  Yet, I keep hearing how "less shoe is better" even for those that suffer with foot problems like PF.  Add into the equation, that I'm not small...I'm 5'6", 150 or so lbs with a muscular/stocky build.  I would love to try a less stable shoe, just to see how it would affect me...but I'm terrified of having a really bad PF flare-up...especially since it's been under control for a good while now.  

Is there anyone here, with PF or other foot pain/problems...that has switched from a stability shoe to a minimalist type of shoe, with success???   

Linda


2009-06-24 8:55 PM
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Subject: RE: shoes: trainers vs racers is there a difference?
Linda-
Yes, I had PF extremely bad last summer(walking was really, really painful. It took many months to overcome) The PF started in my left foot and I was 'told' at the LRS to wear a stability/motion control shoe. All seemed well, until I got an even nastier flare up in my right foot while wearing this type of shoe.

Anywho-I decided to choose for myself this past winter and went over to Mizuno Wave Rider(neutral, lightweight) then added in Mizuno Creation for a little extra cush for long runs(over 12).

I went with my gut feeling-I am sure plenty of people would say this is reckless. I also felt that the motion control shoes controlled me. I felt the shoe was forcing me to run to its build, not to how my body naturally moved. I started using the light shoe for short runs and gradually built up distance in them. I also added a ton of calf stretching to help prevent the PF. I have had zero PF problems.

FWIW-I am on the really light side at 114 pounds and 5'3
2009-06-24 9:41 PM
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Subject: RE: shoes: trainers vs racers is there a difference?
This is me, avoiding work...

I did some research on this a while back, and since I do research for a living, I have a habit of saving anything that looks potentially relevant.  Here's some of what I found, if anybody's interested.  (As I said above, I'm switching slowly to flats, not because of injury concerns, but because I just like them.  Still, the research and discussion is interesting, at least to me.)  This is just a sample that I've grabbed from my list -- there are loads of other things out there.  Maybe someone will find this useful, at least for wasting a little time!

Some popular press stuff:

"Barefoot Running:  The Truth Behind the Hype" (Caleb Wegner)

"Should You Toss Your Running Shoes...?" (Katherine Hobson)

"Will Running Barefoot Cure What Ails Us?" (Adam Weiner)

"Should You Be Running Barefoot?" (Amby Barefoot)

Academic Studies

(There are hundreds of articles.  Here are just a few; the academic discussion goes back a long way, and specifically the thought that less cushioning may be better predates the current hype by decades -- see for example the first article.)

Robbins, Steven E. and Adel M. Hanna (1987), "Running-related injury prevention through barefoot adaptations",  Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise 19:148-156.
Tests a specific hypothesis about why foot injuries are less common in populations that do not wear shoes.  Interesting because the study purports to show that one can in fact gain the hypothesized physiological 'adaptation' (involving the flexibility of the medial longitudinal arch) simply by wearing shoes less frequently.

A.Stacoff (2000), "Tibiocalcaneal kinematics of barefoot versus shod running", Journal of Biomechanics 33:1387-1395.
Argues that one aspect of the purported biomechanical differences induced by barefoot (versus shod) running is due to poor measurement procedure, and that upon correct measurement, there is no appreciable difference.  This is a rare skeptical voice -- most articles on this topic suggest a difference in form of some sort or another between shod and barefoot running.  Of course, the fact that most of these studies focus on a very specific aspect of form means that there is room for both views, wrt different aspects of form.

Stacoff, Alex, Xaver Kalin, and Edgar Stussi (1991), "The effects of shoes on the torsion and rearfoot motion in running", Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise 23:482-490.
Supports and extends earlier research purported to show that barefoot running minimizes pronation.
Bishop, Mark, et al. (2006) "Athletic Footwear, Leg Stiffness, and Running Kinematics", Journal of Athletic Training 41:387–392.
Study suggests that shoes encouraged landing with a more dorsiflexed and stiffer ankle, as well as a more flexed knee.  The explanation is very interesting -- they suggest that the body naturally regulates the amount of stiffness in the entire system, and if there is some cushioning at one end (the shoe), then the body makes other things more stiff to 'compensate'.
C E Richards, P J Magin and R Callister (2009), "Is your prescription of distance running shoes evidence-based?", British Journal of Sports Medicine 43:159-162.
Argues that prescriptions for standard running shoes do not meet the standards of evidence-based medicine.  (Note for BTers:  evidence-based medicine is very controversial, despite the name.  Lots of very reasonable things that doctors do might not meet this standard.)

Some web sites devoted to bare-footedness:

http://barefootrunner.org/
http://runningbarefoot.org/
http://barefootted.com/

A book that is apparently causing some of the current hype:

Born to Run (by  Christopher McDougall)

And of course shoe companies are beginning to clamor over how to make money off of this hype (though in fairness to Nike, their Free shoes caused some of the hype). 

For example:

Nike Free Shoes (honestly I don't see how they differ from flats, but maybe I'm wrong)

Vibram Five Finger footwear
2009-06-25 12:04 AM
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Subject: RE: shoes: trainers vs racers is there a difference?
I look for an excuse to wear my flats. They just feel so niiice


as for the barefoot running clan.... I think that it's not a catch all technique. There are people with natural running gaits that don't really need much shoe, and there are others that aren't built to be runners at all (like not everyone is built like a NFL linebacker). So to generically say "You don't need a shoe with padding or support" without knowing the person's biomechanics is down right dangerous. It boils down to this question: "Are you having problems?" If you aren't, don't worry about it. If you are, they won't go away by themselves. It's time to talk to someone who knows what they are talking about and try something different until you figure it out. You may need less shoe...you may need custom orthotics. Those are pretty drastic differences in direction to figure out through trial and error.
2009-07-15 7:27 PM
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Subject: RE: shoes: trainers vs racers is there a difference?
so... can I make holes in my training zoots to make them like the racers?

I figured being 205 lbs i should go with the more durable longer lasting Zoots. I would like some holes in them to get rid of the water / sweat
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