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2009-07-08 9:52 AM

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Subject: Fellow Cyclists - Help a brother out here.

So I have been having an ongoing debate with a coworker about cycling, cyclists, road sharing and the dangers thereof.

He is of the opinion that cyclists do not belong on the road.  That we should ride on sidewalks and stay away from cars.  I explained to him that if we did that we would be a danger to others, and that if we stay on the road that we are at least accepting the danger for ourselves rather than endangering others.  And that responsible cyclists do follow the rules of the road.

His largest complaint is that cyclists do not follow the same rules as cars and motorcycles.  That rolling thru lights and stop signs cause accidnents and traffic hazzards.  He has also (rightly) expressed the opinion that he does not want to be the person that accidentally kills someone because that person could not be inconvienced by unclipping and stopping to obey the rules of traffic.

Fast forward to this morning....

This morning as we were both driving down the street leading to our workplace, I happened to pull in behind him.  At a 4 way stop intersection a few blocks away, we came to a stop.  When from our right, comes a guy on his mountain bike... who slows down a bit makes sure that no one is actually driving IN the intersection at the moment then stands on the pedals and goes thru the stopsign. Now i have to hear it all morning.

So my request to my fellow cyclists is this.  Please follow the laws of the roadways.   If unclipping is such the PITA that you cant be bothered to do it, then ride with no clips and use old fashioned pedals.  And for Pete's sake, the stop sign isnt a suggestion, it is the LAW.



2009-07-08 9:56 AM
in reply to: #2269898

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Subject: RE: Fellow Cyclists - Help a brother out here.
Plenty of drivers don't follow the rules. Ask him if they should be up on the sidewalk.
2009-07-08 10:00 AM
in reply to: #2269906

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Subject: RE: Fellow Cyclists - Help a brother out here.
run4yrlif - 2009-07-08 9:56 AM Plenty of drivers don't follow the rules. Ask him if they should be up on the sidewalk.


X2. On the way in you didn't see a single motorist act illegally or discourteously?

There are morons everywhere, utilizing every mode of transportation and recreation.

Show your dumba$$ coworker the driving laws in your states, which probably say that a cyclist is afforded all rights and responsibilities of a motorist.
2009-07-08 10:01 AM
in reply to: #2269898

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Subject: RE: Fellow Cyclists - Help a brother out here.
morgenrr - 2009-07-08 9:52 AM

When from our right, comes a guy on his mountain bike... who slows down a bit makes sure that no one is actually driving IN the intersection at the moment then stands on the pedals and goes thru the stopsign. Now i have to hear it all morning.



You are not responsible for every cyclist on the road, only yourself. Tell your co-worker to quit stereotyping cyclists and putting YOU in the same group as the ones who don't follow the law. There are bad apples in every group.

 
2009-07-08 10:02 AM
in reply to: #2269898

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Subject: RE: Fellow Cyclists - Help a brother out here.
If I obeyed traffic laws while riding through downtown Chicago, I'd definitely be the only one. That said, outside of downtown Chicago I try to obey traffic laws as much as possible. But when I'm here, I'm a loner, a rebel.
2009-07-08 10:03 AM
in reply to: #2269898

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Subject: RE: Fellow Cyclists - Help a brother out here.

Ask him if he wants to be on the side walk when you are on your bike, on the side walk, doing a 20k TT at about 25-30 mph?



2009-07-08 10:03 AM
in reply to: #2269898

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Subject: RE: Fellow Cyclists - Help a brother out here.
Ignore the curmudgeons above - you are right that athletes can and should be attentive to the law of the land.  And that the choices of the few do impact the opinions of the many on the whole.
2009-07-08 10:27 AM
in reply to: #2269929

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Subject: RE: Fellow Cyclists - Help a brother out here.

crowny2 - 2009-07-08 10:03 AM

Ask him if he wants to be on the side walk when you are on your bike, on the side walk, doing a 20k TT at about 25-30 mph?

I have, that has been part of the ongoing debate.  That at 250+lbs my cycling at 20-25 mph on a sidewalk is far more dangerous to the walkers/joggers than a car is to me IF proper rules are followed.

 

run4yrlif - 2009-07-08 9:56 AM Plenty of drivers don't follow the rules. Ask him if they should be up on the sidewalk.

I have.  Note the ongoing debate reference but cars dont fit on sidewalks so this point is irrelevent anyway.

the bear - 2009-07-08 10:00 AM
X2. On the way in you didn't see a single motorist act illegally or discourteously?

More to the point, did I see anyone (in a car) run completly thru a light or stopsign without right of way, endangering themselves by throwing their body and mode of transportaion into the middle of an intersection.  Nope.  45+ mile commute  15+ intersections.. Cyclist 1  Cars 0

 

edited to clear up quoting errors.   and to add That is just meant as a reminder to please follow the rules of the road.  Just because car drivers don't doesnt mean that we dont have to.



Edited by morgenrr 2009-07-08 10:30 AM
2009-07-08 10:30 AM
in reply to: #2269898

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Subject: RE: Fellow Cyclists - Help a brother out here.

I'm not even really allowed on the bike lanes around here...  What's the deal with a bike lane with a 15 km/h speed limit!?!  Bikes with adult riders belong on the road.  I'm not going to insist that my 4yo ride his little bike on the road.  There has to be some accomodation for young cyclists that have always been on the sidewalks and playgrounds.

If bad cyclists are a problem and we can't police ourselves, then the police need to crack down on the offenders.  No helmets, no lights, weaving all over the road, running lights and stop signs, riding in the crosswalk (a personal pet peeve).  And what's with the helmet hanging from your handlebars?!?  Now that I'm writing this, I think I need to spend some time promoting the local safe rider training programs before I'm required to take a licensing exam to ride my bike.

2009-07-08 10:36 AM
in reply to: #2269931

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Subject: RE: Fellow Cyclists - Help a brother out here.
Revbigdog - 2009-07-08 11:03 AM Ignore the curmudgeons above - you are right that athletes can and should be attentive to the law of the land.  And that the choices of the few do impact the opinions of the many on the whole.


Agreed.  Although your coworker shouldn't be lumping all cyclist in together, it does make it more difficult when there are some who disobey traffic laws while cycling.

There are motorist out there who break traffic laws that put others, including cyclist, in danger but unfortunately, in our society drivers believe they have a right to be on the roads, when in fact it’s just a privilege.  The idea that the roads are theirs by right magnifies cycling law-breakage.  Not saying it’s the correct line of thinking, but in my opinion, it’s the line of thinking we’re dealing with.

 

We can’t control the actions of other cyclists, but a little rule-following advocacy every now and then, like the OP, is never a bad thing, in my opinion. 




Edited by davealt 2009-07-08 10:37 AM
2009-07-08 10:37 AM
in reply to: #2269898

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Subject: RE: Fellow Cyclists - Help a brother out here.
I think a lot of it comes from cycling confidence. I amm very happy to cycle right down the middle of a lane in a road rather than the side if i know its not a nice road, and i dont want people charging past me leaving a foot of space.
If you act like your in a car, and respect other people, generally you can't go wrong.
And for petes sake, make sure your visible (especially at night)


2009-07-08 10:53 AM
in reply to: #2269898

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Subject: RE: Fellow Cyclists - Help a brother out here.

I would definately point out a few things to your co-worker.

1. stereotyping is stupid. I saw a car hit a girl the other day in a cross walk (that is another story though) So I think no one should be allowed to drive cars because one driver did something stupid that injured someone else who was legally crossing the street. Why blame you (or me for that matter) for what other cyclists do. We are individuals and as such have the ability to make individual choices. Some might say cyclists can get away with it because they police will not ticket well around here I know several cyclists who have gotten tickets for running stop signs and/or speeding on the roads.

2. Make sure you both understand the exact rules of the road for bikes and motor vehicles where you live. I cannot tell you how many times I have been yelled at by motorists and telling me what I was doing was illegal when it was in fact, perfectly legal according to washington/king county/seattle city laws. (for instance riding up the curb lane at a stop light in seattle providing there is enough room to do so is perfectly legal - between lanes though is not. Also I am not required to use a bike lane or bike path just because it is there, esepcially if I feel it is not safe due to things like the Door Zone, debris, potholes, etc...)

3. Instead of discussing it continuosly with you, if he thinks it truly is wrong for cyclists to ride on the road, irregardless of obeying traffic laws, suggest he contact his local representatives or start a citizens initiative to get the law changed, otherwise he needs to stop complaining about it and learn to adapt and live within the legal framework that already exists.

Peope like that really bother me and this is in general a huge issue around Seattle. I will say that I know the laws around here fairly well though probably not 100% and that I obey them to the best of my ability, stopping at stop signs, traffic lights, waiting for pedestrians, riding slowly on the sidewalk if I need to go the wrong way up a one way street to get to my destination etc... Most people it seems just want something to complain about but don't want to do anything themselves to fix it.

2009-07-08 12:36 PM
in reply to: #2269898

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Subject: RE: Fellow Cyclists - Help a brother out here.

Like others have said, make sure your friend (and you, although you likely already are) are well versed in the traffic laws in your state as they pertain to cyclists.  In my state, a stop sign for vehicles is only a yield sign for cyclists.  And cyclists are perfectly legal to proceed through red lights as long as they've stopped first and no vehicles are coming.  Causes a lot of consternation among drivers who think we're doing something illegal. 

That being said, keeping yourself safe and being courteous are always the best bet. 

2009-07-08 12:55 PM
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Subject: RE: Fellow Cyclists - Help a brother out here.
And honestly, you should ask your buddy to take up bike commuting for a week and report back.  It is a perfectly legal and wonderful way to get around but I don't believe that cyclists should behave exactly as cars.  We're the engine and if no traffic is coming why fully stop and lose all that momentum?  There's no impediment to traffic and I can get to my destination a little sooner.  If he took up a bike he might be able to see your argument against the sidewalk and understand some of the 'shortcuts' that riders use.

As for the 4 way stop - i would probably act in the same way since most cars won't even realize the bike is there waiting his/her turn to proceed through the intersection and many more are too impatient to wait for a bike to get started from a complete stop.  Many many many people here have noted how they have to bike as though they are invisible because motorists simply don't see them.

Honestly, this issue is not going to go away - how many of you have noted a big surge in the numbers of people you see on bikes? I've noticed and lots of regular joes are out there - not just crazy bike couriers. Your buddy is going to have to get over it.  
2009-07-08 1:46 PM
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Subject: RE: Fellow Cyclists - Help a brother out here.
Cyclists should follow the laws. Bad ones give us all a bad name, same with drivers. In some places, e.g., downtown D.C. it is illegal to ride your bike on the sidewalk!

Finally, I think that drivers find it easy to vent about cyclists because it is more personal. What I mean is they can see the bicyclist while they can't always see the driver of another car. People have road-rage while driving that they would never have outside their car. When faced with a biker they feel very dominant and treat bikers like crap! It is easy to focus their venom at bike riders. They should ride some miles in our shoes.

Doug
2009-07-08 2:13 PM
in reply to: #2269898

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Subject: RE: Fellow Cyclists - Help a brother out here.
I recently had a ride where I was almost clipped 3 times in one block where I had full right of way.  The stretch of road I was on was by the local high school, so I would expect drivers to be a little more alert.  I was going straight (north) on a stretch that had stop signs on the roads coming in (i.e. the east/west raods).  First an older woman coming south makes a left turn almost into me, stopping only at the last second.  Then two other drivers start to roll through their stop signs almost hitting me.  I whistled at the second one (maybe I should get a bell or air horn?) since his window was down, and although he had turned his head in my direction, he clearly did not see me. 

So, three drivers in a one block stretch - should cars not be allowed to drive within so many blocks of the school?  Or should drivers and cyclists try to more aware of the rules and one another?


2009-07-08 2:58 PM
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Subject: RE: Fellow Cyclists - Help a brother out here.

juniperjen - 2009-07-08 12:55 PM And honestly, you should ask your buddy to take up bike commuting for a week and report back.  It is a perfectly legal and wonderful way to get around but I don't believe that cyclists should behave exactly as cars.  We're the engine and if no traffic is coming why fully stop and lose all that momentum?
 

Umm ... because it's the law? and because there was traffic.  8:15am in Dallas and 5 blocks north of DFW airport and if you are doing it for exercise, then why not take advantge of the opportunity to work just a little harder?  Just like some mini hill repeats.

As for the 4 way stop - i would probably act in the same way since most cars won't even realize the bike is there waiting his/her turn to proceed through the intersection and many more are too impatient to wait for a bike to get started from a complete stop.  Many many many people here have noted how they have to bike as though they are invisible because motorists simply don't see them.
 

My coworker was very aware of his presence, and held back from crossing the intersection even though he had the right of way because he didnt see any signs that the cyclist was going to stop.  Didnt check behind him to see if cars were there, didnt stop pedaling , didn't signal.   He didnt ride like he was invisible, he rode like he was invulnerable.  Remember, I am one car back and watching this whole thing, so its not like i am getting this third hand.

Honestly, this issue is not going to go away - how many of you have noted a big surge in the numbers of people you see on bikes? I've noticed and lots of regular joes are out there - not just crazy bike couriers. Your buddy is going to have to get over it.  
 

2009-07-08 3:03 PM
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Subject: RE: Fellow Cyclists - Help a brother out here.
morgenrr - 2009-07-08 3:58 PM

juniperjen - 2009-07-08 12:55 PM And honestly, you should ask your buddy to take up bike commuting for a week and report back.  It is a perfectly legal and wonderful way to get around but I don't believe that cyclists should behave exactly as cars.  We're the engine and if no traffic is coming why fully stop and lose all that momentum?
 

Umm ... because it's the law? and because there was traffic.  8:15am in Dallas and 5 blocks north of DFW airport and if you are doing it for exercise, then why not take advantge of the opportunity to work just a little harder?  Just like some mini hill repeats.

As for the 4 way stop - i would probably act in the same way since most cars won't even realize the bike is there waiting his/her turn to proceed through the intersection and many more are too impatient to wait for a bike to get started from a complete stop.  Many many many people here have noted how they have to bike as though they are invisible because motorists simply don't see them.
 

My coworker was very aware of his presence, and held back from crossing the intersection even though he had the right of way because he didnt see any signs that the cyclist was going to stop.  Didnt check behind him to see if cars were there, didnt stop pedaling , didn't signal.   He didnt ride like he was invisible, he rode like he was invulnerable.  Remember, I am one car back and watching this whole thing, so its not like i am getting this third hand.

Honestly, this issue is not going to go away - how many of you have noted a big surge in the numbers of people you see on bikes? I've noticed and lots of regular joes are out there - not just crazy bike couriers. Your buddy is going to have to get over it.  
 



Not saying particular cyclist should have done what he did - just saying that in certain circumstances I can totally see why cyclists often 'break the law' and might in certain circumstances that are similar.   Including me.  Though, I am uber cautious despite saying what I said (and I would never commute by bike to my office - way too dangerous)  but in some cases we should be thinking and some states clearly have thought about the fact that cyclists can use the roads and traffic signs differently (ie stop as yield instead of stop).

In North America we haven't had a huge segment of the population biking so we've just applied the same rules to bikes as cars ... maybe we should think about that ... like i said, this isn't going to going away - lots more people are taking to the road.

Edited by juniperjen 2009-07-08 3:03 PM
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