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2009-07-23 3:47 PM

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Subject: Swimming Question: Less Strokes = Less Energy and Less Speed?
Question for you guys about swimming. After reading a few threads on the subject and checking some other sources, I want to see what you FOP swimmers and coaches think.

Over the past year, I've really been focusing on being comfortable in the water, breathing properly and swimming economically. To accomplish this, I've been practicing a very light kick, coupled with a very long and complete stroke while at the same time focusing on body rotation and streamlining. I'm afraid, this has come at a cost of speed. While I don't feel like I'm struggling, I'm consistently near BOP in most of my races. The last sprint I did (around 450 yards in 9+ minutes), the HIM I just did (1.2 miles in about 50 minutes). I consistently swim .5 - .6 miles in ow with some chop and current in around 17 - 18 minutes if I'm really pushing.

Am I taking too long of a stroke? Am I not kicking enough? Am I breathing too frequently (every stroke cycle)? Am I just not taking enough strokes?

I'm going to have a coach take a look at my stroke in the pool and go from there in a couple of weeks but in the meantime, I want to see what everyone thinks.

ps - Just so you know, I'm a self-taught freestyle swimmer as of March 2008.


2009-07-23 4:27 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Question: Less Strokes = Less Energy and Less Speed?
i cant say on you personally without seeing your stroke, but i know for myself, i used to take VERY long smooth strokes, still taking longer than a lot of people, but i deff upped my stroke count in faster stuff/races and am moving a LOT faster. in open water/races my stroke rates goes up a decent amount from my crusing pace.

in open water i am breathing every stroke, sighting every 4-8 depending on water/other racers/how well i know teh course.

its a bit personal, but i needed the extra turnover to up my speed. when i changed this, i dropped 5 or so sec per 100 in races without any extra training.
2009-07-23 4:34 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Question: Less Strokes = Less Energy and Less Speed?
Thanks newbz, That is encouraging to hear. I try to be aware of any gliding though I'm sure there's still some there.
2009-07-23 4:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Question: Less Strokes = Less Energy and Less Speed?
As someone is is just now re-learning how to swim properly, I'm totally with you on "think long, hold/glide, focus on streamline, rotation, etc".  I sure ain't fast right now, bit I'm OK with that. I consider what I'm doing now to be solid foundation-building - until I know I have good, solid form and habits, I'm not worried about speed.  When good form and habits are in place, then I think you can start to modify for better speed. But until then, I'm convinced that chasing speed will just be a complete waste of energy and ultimately lead to regression in terms of good form, balance, and energy-management. 

I'm definitely convinced that even as my swimming improves, regular time spent on basic balance drills and simple stuff like that will help keep that foundation solid.

Hang in there!

Cheers, Chris
2009-07-23 5:06 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Question: Less Strokes = Less Energy and Less Speed?
Hey, I hear what you're saying but our sport is all about speed and time so it's hard to not get hung up on that. Thanks for the feedback!
2009-07-23 5:44 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Question: Less Strokes = Less Energy and Less Speed?
I have a short video clip I will try to get on here tonight...

J


2009-07-23 6:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Question: Less Strokes = Less Energy and Less Speed?
IMO, many triathletes who learn to swim as adults have learned that a nice smooth stroke and long glide is important to swimming well.  Unfortunately for many of these athletes, unless they have the opportunity to swim with a coach on the deck, they will often overemphasize the glide (many times in an attempt to lower stroke count).

I have worked with athletes who have a stroke count of 16-18 for 25m but are taking 32-36 seconds to swim a length.  For these athletes, often the solution is to lessen the glide (which increases stroke count) and they can get their times down.

Further, especially for athletes who learned to swim as adults, many triathletes tend to swim at one speed all of the time.  While there are times (rarely IMO) to swim a long continuous set at an easy pace, if you want to get faster, the bulk of your swimming should be sets that are 300m and under and are challenging to complete.

Best of luck with the coach, having someone to look at your stroke and provide you feedback is by far the best way to become a faster swimmer.

Shane
2009-07-23 6:09 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Question: Less Strokes = Less Energy and Less Speed?
gsmacleod - 2009-07-23 7:02 PM

IMO, many triathletes who learn to swim as adults have learned that a nice smooth stroke and long glide is important to swimming well.  Unfortunately for many of these athletes, unless they have the opportunity to swim with a coach on the deck, they will often overemphasize the glide (many times in an attempt to lower stroke count).

I have worked with athletes who have a stroke count of 16-18 for 25m but are taking 32-36 seconds to swim a length.  For these athletes, often the solution is to lessen the glide (which increases stroke count) and they can get their times down.

Further, especially for athletes who learned to swim as adults, many triathletes tend to swim at one speed all of the time.  While there are times (rarely IMO) to swim a long continuous set at an easy pace, if you want to get faster, the bulk of your swimming should be sets that are 300m and under and are challenging to complete.

Best of luck with the coach, having someone to look at your stroke and provide you feedback is by far the best way to become a faster swimmer.

Shane


That sounds like what my coach told me. I was gliding to the point where I'd lose momentum. She wanted my to turn-over faster and to start applying power right away. It's not that different than what we're told about cycling and running and cadence.
2009-07-23 6:28 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Question: Less Strokes = Less Energy and Less Speed?
gsmacleod - 2009-07-23 7:02 PM IMO, many triathletes who learn to swim as adults have learned that a nice smooth stroke and long glide is important to swimming well.  Unfortunately for many of these athletes, unless they have the opportunity to swim with a coach on the deck, they will often overemphasize the glide (many times in an attempt to lower stroke count).

I have worked with athletes who have a stroke count of 16-18 for 25m but are taking 32-36 seconds to swim a length.  For these athletes, often the solution is to lessen the glide (which increases stroke count) and they can get their times down.

Further, especially for athletes who learned to swim as adults, many triathletes tend to swim at one speed all of the time.  While there are times (rarely IMO) to swim a long continuous set at an easy pace, if you want to get faster, the bulk of your swimming should be sets that are 300m and under and are challenging to complete.

Best of luck with the coach, having someone to look at your stroke and provide you feedback is by far the best way to become a faster swimmer.

Shane


what I'm not understanding about the long sets..  how come running/biking more helps one get faster, but not swimming? 
2009-07-23 6:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Question: Less Strokes = Less Energy and Less Speed?
Bioteknik - 2009-07-23 8:28 PM

what I'm not understanding about the long sets..  how come running/biking more helps one get faster, but not swimming? 


Improvement is all about training load which is a function of volume and intensity.  Since very few triathletes will ever spend enough time in the pool to maximize the volume part of the equation, the intensity part of the equation must come into play.

Further, for swimming (and cycling) since it is not a weight bearing activity, the intensity of workouts can be increased with less risk of injury than with running.

Shane
2009-07-23 7:16 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Question: Less Strokes = Less Energy and Less Speed?
Bioteknik - 2009-07-23 5:28 PM

gsmacleod - 2009-07-23 7:02 PM IMO, many triathletes who learn to swim as adults have learned that a nice smooth stroke and long glide is important to swimming well. Unfortunately for many of these athletes, unless they have the opportunity to swim with a coach on the deck, they will often overemphasize the glide (many times in an attempt to lower stroke count).

I have worked with athletes who have a stroke count of 16-18 for 25m but are taking 32-36 seconds to swim a length. For these athletes, often the solution is to lessen the glide (which increases stroke count) and they can get their times down.

Further, especially for athletes who learned to swim as adults, many triathletes tend to swim at one speed all of the time. While there are times (rarely IMO) to swim a long continuous set at an easy pace, if you want to get faster, the bulk of your swimming should be sets that are 300m and under and are challenging to complete.

Best of luck with the coach, having someone to look at your stroke and provide you feedback is by far the best way to become a faster swimmer.

Shane


what I'm not understanding about the long sets.. how come running/biking more helps one get faster, but not swimming?



swimming is 100% no impact, and thus you will see much faster and greater improvment through intervals all the time. if you could run 400 or 800m repeats all day long without getting hurt my guess is you would see some insane fast run times. but you simply cant do that.

swimming faster than race pace with just a short rest allows you to get in WAY over the race distance at a much faster speed, and the short break allows you to A hold that speed and B to get just enough of a break that your form doesnt fall apart.

just as an example, and this is purely from what i have seen through myself and my coaching, but i used to do a lot of longer 600-1500 steady swims, times imprioved a little, when i switched to a complete interval based workout, my times tarted dropping FAST.

in 3 years i went from a 1:40 pace to a 1:33 pace for sprints, and a 38min 2000m swim to a 35min 2000m swim.

this year/end of last i moved to all intervals, and my 2000m pace is now 1:19.

this is from all 50s, 100s, a few 200s, and pulling/kicking.
outside of races i can count the number of times this year i have swam over 500 at one time on one hand.


2009-07-23 8:42 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Question: Less Strokes = Less Energy and Less Speed?

jeffy_101 - 2009-07-23 3:47 PM Question for you guys about swimming. After reading a few threads on the subject and checking some other sources, I want to see what you FOP swimmers and coaches think. Over the past year, I've really been focusing on being comfortable in the water, breathing properly and swimming economically. To accomplish this, I've been practicing a very light kick, coupled with a very long and complete stroke while at the same time focusing on body rotation and streamlining. I'm afraid, this has come at a cost of speed. While I don't feel like I'm struggling, I'm consistently near BOP in most of my races. The last sprint I did (around 450 yards in 9+ minutes), the HIM I just did (1.2 miles in about 50 minutes). I consistently swim .5 - .6 miles in ow with some chop and current in around 17 - 18 minutes if I'm really pushing. Am I taking too long of a stroke? Am I not kicking enough? Am I breathing too frequently (every stroke cycle)? Am I just not taking enough strokes? I'm going to have a coach take a look at my stroke in the pool and go from there in a couple of weeks but in the meantime, I want to see what everyone thinks. ps - Just so you know, I'm a self-taught freestyle swimmer as of March 2008.


The glide only lasts until right before you lose speed. For some that's a long glide, for others much shorter. Sounds like you might need to shorten it up. You want the speed to be constant, so use that as your guide and not a stroke count. so if you feel like your speeding/slowing with each stroke, make some changes. If you kick is efficient, then you can kick less, but I'm not sure about lighter. I have a two beat kick, so I don't kick much, but each one is with purpose. As to breathing, don't worry about it. Just like dribbling a basketball, you want to be able to breath on both sides comfortably, as it aids in a balanced stroke, but you can breath every stroke cycle on either side and forget about it for now. (of course, having a coach look at your stroke is a great way to go.)

Here's what I would suggest: Do a couple of drills at the start of your workout, and then GET AFTER IT.  If you want to swim better, then go swim more. And like newbz said, hit the intervals. Swimming 1500? Then do 15X100 and make it hurt. You will get faster and your stroke will get better. Drilling yourself to death is not the answer.

If I had to pick path to success and my options were tons of drills and technique and very low volume, or a little technique and tons of volume, I would go volume every time.

Good luck and keep us posted.

2009-07-23 8:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Question: Less Strokes = Less Energy and Less Speed?
Am I taking too long of a stroke? Am I not kicking enough? Am I breathing too frequently (every stroke cycle)? Am I just not taking enough strokes? QUOTE]

Congrats on self-teaching and getting where you are now. I am always impressed when non-swimmers focus on technique before trying to "muscle through" swimming. It makes me cringe when I got to the pool and I see people flailing their arms around with straight arms while ripping their shoulders to pieces...

To answer your question for taking "too long" of a stroke, I would say no. You want to fully maximize stroke length to have the most effective stroke possible. You want to extend your underwater pull towards your hip and reach your recovery forward above your head till you feel the "pull" in your lats. I would say you are gliding too much on either side that you have just reached forward and this is maybe why you think you should increase the number of stokes you are taking which is true. If you are gliding for drills, that is fine because that is to specifically work on that aspect of your stroke. However, the cycling of your arms should be as "continuous" as possible. I think something important for you to focus on is your stroke rate--keep in mind that uping stroke rate and maintaining stroke length are kind of a double edged sword. You need to work at it to gain enough strength to maintain stroke length with an effective underwater pull. Maybe try working in some stroke rate sets. (ie. 1) 8x25m doing 12.5m with a stroke rate as fast as possible, 12.5m easy, also 2) 4x50 build (build your stroke rate over the course of the 50 so the last 5m are as fast as possible)...I also find that doing pull sets with increasing strokes per breath helps to up the stroke rate naturally. ie. 4x200m (50m breathe every 3 strokes, 50m breathe every 5 strokes, 50m breathe every 7 strokes, 50m breathe every 9 strokes)...this set makes you up your strokes because you really, really want to breathe!!

Kicking is a difficult thing to determine for tri because it really depends on your leg strength and how effiecent you are in the water--but in general, for endurance swimming you want to conserve your legs as long as possible. This is especially important in tri because you have to last through a bike and run. If you can youtube grant hackett, watch his kick beat for the 1500m free.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6qIhkuzTx0e barely even kicks at the beginning--really just kicking to maintain body position and prevent his legs from sinking, purely to save energy because the leg muscle use a huge amount of energy. As far as breathing too much, what do you mean by every stoke cycle? Is a stoke cycle 2,3,4...Because it really depends on your level of conditioning...I would suggest that odd numbers are the best (ie. bilateral breathing) because swimming open water requires that you be able to breath on both sides if waves are coming from one side to avoid getting a huge gulp of water in your mouth. But ultimately, as long as you are able to maintain your body position when breathing that it is better you breathe than not so you don't tire yourself out.

Sooo...basically, i think one of your main issues is stroke rate...without firsthand seeing your stroke I can't really comment specifically. But you want to make sure you are keeping your elbows up as long as possible under the water and finishing your stroke with your hand by your hip. Also, you want to relax your recovery (ie. not "muscling through). Just relax your triceps and let your arm naturally reach forward. You should feel a little tug of your lats as you reach forward and repeat on the other side.

I hope this makes sense! Just google some other swimmers to get an idea! Ian Thorpe, Michael Phelps, Ryan Cochrane, Grant Hackett, Peter Van den Hoogenband, etc. Good luck!


Edited by mndymond 2009-07-23 8:45 PM
2009-07-24 12:35 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Question: Less Strokes = Less Energy and Less Speed?
Thanks everyone for the great feedback, I do appreciate it! Learning to swim 50 meters last spring without stopping was a great achievement, I nearly gave up a few times during the winter months, so glad I stuck with it.

I really enjoy swimming, especially in the open water, it's now become one of my favorite things. I do want to get better and faster though and I know I will over time.

Here's a quick video of me swimming in ow last month. In the first part of the video, I'm working pretty hard and this is the beginning of the return leg after about 1/2 mile. In the second part, I'm just cruising. I felt like I could swim like this for quite a while if I had to. Let me know what you think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCGEIgnxpw4

ps - this video is work safe
2009-07-24 6:25 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Question: Less Strokes = Less Energy and Less Speed?
can't be 100% positive, but looks to me, based on your stroke rate and positioning of your arms, that you don't have a glide at all... looks like you're pushing down, and lifting your head to breathe.

the classic tugboat shape: http://www.usms.org/articles/articledisplay.php?a=81


often, a swim coach will describe something in exaggerated terms in order to put you in the correct position .... so they might tell two swimmers totally different things in order to bring about the same result. example: they might tell the under-rotator to point their chest at the wall, and the over-rotator to swim with their chest pointing to the bottom... two totally conflicting pieces of advice designed to bring about the same thing: proper rotation.

same with the "glide"...

Edited by lrobb 2009-07-24 6:32 AM
2009-07-24 7:26 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Question: Less Strokes = Less Energy and Less Speed?
I was taught by a swim coach that the main reason for a slight glide is that as your arm enters the water, you need to allow bubbles to dissipate before pulling your arm through- pulling through air bubbles & water will not give you as much propulsion as through just water.

Depending on how smooth your hand enters the water therefore depends on how long you need to glide before pulling your arm through to maximise propulsion.

Something that maye be obvious but which I wasn't even aware I was doing until a coach pointed it out to me, was not fully extending my arm pull down to my hip so my hand was leaving the water at my side- I was missing out on a good hands length of propulsion without any further time being spent on my stroke. Once I corrected this I had to get used to the extra pressure on the hands- my palms hadn't ached that bad since I was a teenager (sorry) but it increased my speed drastically.

I agree with the post about intervals too- I saw results in a very short space of time- much quicker than the time it takes to build speed running or cycling.

One workout in particular that I saw very quick results in is below:

25m pool:

32 lengths steady warm up

3 x 8 lengths, breaking down each set into 2 lengths steady, 2 slightly quicker, 2 fast and 2 sprint

16 lengths steady using pull buoy or hand paddles to build resistance 

4 x 4 lengths sprint

8 lengths steady (2 lengths breathing every 7 strokes, 2 lengths breathing every 5, 2 every 3rd, 2 every 2nd- this gets your heart rate down to normal)

8 lengths easy to cool down any stroke

I always tend to come back to this workout, it just seems to work for me.

good luck


 





2009-07-24 9:04 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Question: Less Strokes = Less Energy and Less Speed?
jeffy_101 - 2009-07-23 11:35 PM
Let me know what you think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCGEIgnxpw4


I think that if you went from only being able to swim 50m and are self-taught, that's a very good looking stroke! I'm surprised that you're BOP, but it's impossible to tell what's going on underwater and IMO, that's what is most important.

If you want to continue without a stroke coach, I'd suggest getting a good video of yourself in a clear pool from the side, front, and back and post the link here. Then there's very well-qualified people here that are usually kind enough to comment.

To answer your OP, I'm definitely faster with a higher turnover but for me that comes at an expense especially at high altitude where it's a very fine line between slightly out-of-breath and full-on hypoxia. So far in my latest tri journey, my strategy has been to use as little energy as possible during the swim and that means finding a good draft and gliding as much as possible.

I will say that switching to a two-beat kick based on tjfry's posts has allowed me to increase my turnover in the pool since it was amazing how much O2, I was burning through with my old kick. With the two-beat, I'm less hypoxic and can push faster with my arm stroke.
2009-07-24 11:18 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Question: Less Strokes = Less Energy and Less Speed?
Thanks for all the feedback and suggestions guys. Also, thanks for the article link. I will try to keep that in mind. If anyone else has comments or suggestions, by all means...
2009-07-24 6:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Question: Less Strokes = Less Energy and Less Speed?
as i am in no way qualified to comment on stroke technique (I didn't even watch your vid as I wouldn't know what i am looking at), I won't say anything about 'glide' or technique. I will say that I did the same thing you did. Struggled to swim 50 yards. First time I swam down and back I had to sit on the side of the pool for 10 min. before trying again. I worked on the same things you have been using the TI method. I got to where I could swim 2 miles....but my speed never improved. I decided to try intervals. I don't remember what I started with. I just wrote down some interval examples from here on BT and started. It was PAINFUL!!! But, after 2 weeks my 100 yard times went from avg of 2:08 to 1:55 in my first 500 TT. That's from 10:40/500 down to 9:35...over a minute!! Based on that, I agree 100% with all those who say to pound the intervals...it worked for me. Good luck....
2009-07-24 6:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Question: Less Strokes = Less Energy and Less Speed?
i'm prob going to get a lot of flack from the swimmers for this,

but the single best thing i could do for my swim tech was.......


SWIM MORE
the more time i spent in the pool the more comfortable i felt, and i was able to see things that were slowing me down, make changes.

i am pretty much 100% self taught, stayed away from the TI stuff and just watched good swimmers/talk to them about what i needed to do.
2009-07-24 8:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Question: Less Strokes = Less Energy and Less Speed?
newbz - 2009-07-24 6:54 PM i'm prob going to get a lot of flack from the swimmers for this, but the single best thing i could do for my swim tech was....... SWIM MORE the more time i spent in the pool the more comfortable i felt, and i was able to see things that were slowing me down, make changes. i am pretty much 100% self taught, stayed away from the TI stuff and just watched good swimmers/talk to them about what i needed to do.


Why would you catch flack from swimmers from that comment? Triathletes who are bad swimmers may disagree, but those who climbed their way to the front like you or those with a swim background probably won't have a problem.


2009-07-24 8:55 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Question: Less Strokes = Less Energy and Less Speed?
I used to have no glide at all and I felt I had to stroke or sink. After attending a swim clinic with underwater videa I was taught how to improve my stroke. For me, the glide with outstretched arm counterbalances my legs and keeps them from dropping and dragging. When I first started swimming this way I felt uncoordinated and my speed dropped. Now that this has become ingrained I'm using less energy, I feel more balanced and comfortable, and I'm swimming faster than before. (I've got video of my "before" swimming on my profile page)
2009-07-24 8:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Question: Less Strokes = Less Energy and Less Speed?
tjfry - 2009-07-24 10:54 PM

Why would you catch flack from swimmers from that comment? Triathletes who are bad swimmers may disagree, but those who climbed their way to the front like you or those with a swim background probably won't have a problem.


x2; too many triathletes will wonder why they aren't getting faster in the pool when they are swimming 2x/week for less than 4km/week.

If you want to get faster a swimming, swim more!  I would recommend at least 3000m everytime you get in the pool and one more day than whatever you are doing now

Shane
2009-07-25 1:30 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Question: Less Strokes = Less Energy and Less Speed?
Increasing your swim time while using improper techniques are not the way to increase speed, and will solidify bad habits.  If you go on you tube and enter "swim techniques" nearly every olympic swimmer has a video to watch with plenty of views both under and over the water.

Nearly everyone will tell you that you won't win the tri in the swimming, but you sure can lose it there.

As a long time competitive swimmer, I glide, but concentrate more on my pull under the water, for that is where the power needs to be.

It's all about physics in swimming.  If you want to go forward, you must push the water back, (not down like most beginners).  If you lift your head to breathe, you feet will drop down and you will plow the water.

You video shows a pretty nice stroke, but it does look like a little head lift for breathing.  Remember to rotate your body as you stroke.  That way breathing is easier, and your pull power comes from your latts (very powerful muscle), and not your shoulder.

As far as getting faster, you only need to think of all the sharks in the SF Bay, and stay ahead of that other swimmer.
2009-07-25 4:58 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming Question: Less Strokes = Less Energy and Less Speed?
I am glad you asked this question Jeffy.  Lots of good info in this thread that makes sense to me.  I don't really see a glide in your stroke either...but I am a total newb....I think this is my problem though...too long a glide.  I will try more speed intervals in the pool for now and OW I will just stick to form as I have not gotten my pool swim to directly translate to OWS...but it's getting there. 
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