Everyone's a Winner (Page 8)

This thread has derailed and is going off the cliff.

Don't all the provocative ones?

Friel clarrified his response....But first my quick thoughts (and I haven't read this thread but a few posts). When outside of a tri sitting I often run into runners or Triathletes. We quickly find that bond and without a doubt they ALWAYS say " I just do 10K's" or "I JUST do Sprints" in a tone that says they are not that the real events (Marathon / Long Course Tri) .....I think its true that the culture thinks you must go long to be a Real Triathlete or runner....

Friels' updated NEW blog post see below:

I appreciate all of the comments on my last blog. There have been a lot made with a wide array of points of view. But, unfortunately, it appears that what I said has been taken the wrong way by many readers. That's my fault; not yours. I simply used to many words to try to explain a rather simple point. I'll try again only more succinctly this time around.

My concern was that all of us (athletes and non-athletes) subtly encourage everyone to do the longest events as if some how they are the 'true' endurance events. For example, if a running race offers both a 5km and a 10km there is almost always pressure to enter the 10km. You may even hear runners' comments, often in a joking way but nevertheless revealing what they feel, that 'real' runners do the longer events.

I was trying (apparently not very successfully) to make the point that this is also starting to happen in triathlon. It's not very healthy for triathlon. Finishing an Ironman has become the ultimate goal in the sport. It wasn't that way back in the 1980s when triathlon was new. Then the US Triathlon Series was a big deal in this country. Placing high in your age group, posting a fast time, and perhaps even qualifying for the National Championship was considered to be a goal every bit as worthy as finishing an Ironman. I hear of far fewer people setting such goals any more. That's too bad. Going fast is very challenging in itself and very rewarding when accomplished ('fast' in relation to the athlete only - not to some absolute time for everyone).

I should also clarify that I have no problem with people simply wanting to finish a race as their only goal. That's often necessary for those new to a distance as was the goal of my client's 70.3 race this past weekend (which, by the way, he finished with an outstanding performance in many regards). I gave the same advice to a pro I once coached who was doing his first Ironman. Finish. But after that the challenge becomes to improve on one's performance. This is when entering to simply finish does not seem like a worthy challenge any more. It's like a runner setting a seasonal goal to break 40 minutes in the 10k even though he's done it many times before. I see no satisfaction in repeatedly setting a goal such as that.

Competition has been diluted in age group running events because of this longer-is-better attitude. An example of this is Boston Marathon qualifying times. In 1983 for a male, age 40 the standard was 2:50. Now it's 3:20. Triathlon hasn't gotten to this point yet. Age group times are still improving at the Ironman distance. That was the same for the marathon back in the 1980s. But 15 years later that had changed. Triathlon can only avoid this dilution of performance by encouraging athletes, especially novices, to participate at whatever distance motivates them. Longer is not necessarily better.

(Gosh, I used a lot of words this time, too. Let's see if I made sense this go.)

yes, but it made the last hour go by pretty fast.....

 

truth be told, I signed up for an IM with all intentions of just finishing as my goal....I do see Friels point and I feel sometimes focusing on shorter stuff can be equally rewarding. 

 

You don't get to 10 pages by staying on topic! 

First is my disclaimer- I didn't read all 9 pages.  So I may be repeating points previously made.

Having gotten that out of the way - WTH is wrong with just participating "recreationally"????? Not everyone is destined to become FOP.  In the "exercise won't make you thin" thread, many people were all over the "this gives people another excuse to not be ative" party line.  But now if the overall average times are slowing because more people are trying endurance sports, it's a bad thing? Especially when participating, even recreationally, means committing to an active lifestyle?  Fine.  Make a cut-off.  If people don't reach T1 by a certain time, they are out.  If they don't reach T2 by the next cutoff, they're out.  And if they don't finish the run by a minimum time to keep up the "average AG time", they are out.  After all, this world has winners and losers.  And no one deserves to be out there that can't keep up the productivity.

See how quickly people drop out, and how much entry fees have to go up to cover the insurance and other fees.  Make triathlon another snotty elitest sport akin to polo, where only the best or richest can participate even for fun.

Or keep it the way it is.  The top tier will be racing at their best, putting forth all there effort to make PR's and improve overall times.  The rest of the AG's will be out there for their own reasons.  Some to test themselves.  Some to enjoy the fruits of their labors working out and training.  Some for the motivation to keep training and exercising.  And some, yes, for the purely social aspect.

The only overall times that should be of concern is the top 10-20%.  Those are the people who are racing, and if those times are getting slower, it should raise some eyebrows.

Yeah I asked this on Page 1.

Yes you did.  But it got buried under the avalanche of "slow noobies should stay out of my way" comments. Which, when I think about it some more (a bad idea), is really ridiculous.  The slow people barely see the fast people.  How do we get in the way? (And I'm not a noob, just slow).

I am by no means a FOPer, I just finished my second sprint tri so clearly don't have a long track record and this is my first season in the sport.  However, in doing my second sprint this weekend I was struck by how many people were really struggling just to finish, people who don't appear to have done much of the training we talk about all the time (whether or not they did is not what I'm saying, I'm merely pointing out that most of these BOPers were...well, they still have generous love handles).  I don't have a problem with people 'just finishing', struggling along, all that jazz, but it did strike me how many were in that group.  I talked to my parents about this--who had their first tri experience going to my race--and they were shocked at the disparity between the FOPers and the BOPers.  I said I wouldn't imagine it'd be the same way in the longer races...

Fast forward to the next day, the HIM (this was for the Timberman in NH), and I decided to go out and watch the bike--the leaders and BOPers end up on the same road going in opposite directions so I thought I'd catch both for an hour or so.  I was absolutely shocked at how many BOPers were absolutely dying to get up the hill...and this was mile five of a 56 mile bike, before having to complete a half mary.  Honestly, I don't have a problem with it, but I'm also not going to be the person cheering wildly for that last finisher who doesn't look like he/she put in more than a few hours of training and I will certainly never understand the mentality of 'just finish'.  Triathlete's come in all shapes and sizes, and everyone has to start somewhere--for some of us there was an athletic background to fall back on, for others they're truly coming from couch to sprint/OLY/whatever.  But I do have to say that I was not expecting as many truly struggling-to-finish-BOPer's as I've seen since starting in this sport.

I cheer for everyone no matter what they look like they've done in their training. I also don't judge people based on what they look like at the end of a race, or at any point in the race for that matter.

Further hijack:

To answer your question: numerous times this year I've been forced to slow down or go into the other lane while on the bike because of slow riders with no sense of etiquette or the rules who were "in my way." With wave starts, slow people easily get ahead of faster cyclists. Heck, the way my swim sucks, I get a lot of slower cyclists ahead of me in my own wave.

Slow and not in my way, I don't care. Knock yourself out. Welcome to the sport, I'll enjoy talking with you before or after the race.

But slow, fast, whatever and in my way, please learn and follow the rules and use common sense.

Edited by the bear 2009-08-26 4:57 PM

Maybe I am blind and I have read every comment on the thread, but I only saw one person write this and I could argue this was even misconstrued. But avalanche?

I think you are right on in your reading assessment.  That's how I read it as well.  Basically, it's as though he is concerned about protecting the elitism of the highest levels of the sport.  There are lower level events there for a reason (in his point of view). 

In my opinion, the answer is all about the challenge.  It's not about the win, it's about completing the harder event for some.  A guy like me has no aspirations at ever coming in first in one of these events because I enjoy having more size.  I'm not knocking the 130lb guys out there.  It's just not for me.  That said, I'll leave the winning of these mega distance events to others but why should that prevent me from wishing to participate in one some day?  I don't see what is wrong with that.  The guys who win these things will never bench close to 400lbs while I can.  Most folks think that guys who like to work out have no flexibility, are slow, and can't even think of endurance events.  There is something said for being well-rounded as a person. There is also something to say about having people from other backgrounds willing to embrace, support and participate in another sport rather than dismiss and denigrate its athletes. 

There is NOTHING wrong with participating recreationally.  But that is NOT what the original Friel blog was about.  The blog asked the question, and I'm paraphrasing here "why do we respect someone more for doing a long distance slowly relative to the pack than we respect a person doing a short distance quickly relative to the pack?"

I think that it is an interesting question, that hasn't gotten many responses on this thread.  I've been noticing that interesting questions often go unanswered around here, and everything seems to come back to "you don't respect me, my goals, pace, etc, etc." kinds of back and forth.  Which is too bad, because I'm curious why going long seems to get more respect. 

I'm interested because its been a question that I've been asking about my own triathlon goals.  This is my first season, and I've completed three sprints.  I've been asked by other friends who do tris when I will do an Oly or HIM.  I'm starting to plan for next season, and I've gone back and forth about my priorities.  In my sprints I've been pretty MOP, with a lot of BOP running.  I know that I could easily complete an Oly based on current training, and could work towards a HIM with some prep no problem, but I've decided that I want to get faster before I go farther.  (Now I know from a number of threads around here, that that is not everyone's goal, but it is definitely mine).  I really want to see if I can move further up in the pack, maybe not FOP, but solidly MOP throughout, and maybe front of MOP.  I feel like there is a lot more for me to master on a short course before I move up.  But it doesn't seem like this perspective is as common (again, not that it matters ultimately what someone else's goals are, I'm just interested in how they make those goals).  And I wonder what is the rush for some people, who say "I did my first sprint, came in DFL, can I do a HIM next month?"   

So, again, back to the original question, why the collective overvaluation on long course vs. short course?
Erica

I didn't word that all too well.  I'm not saying that I cheer only for those FOP diesel athletes and boo everyone else.  It has nothing to do with how they look, because I'm sure many of the BOPers work just as hard as everyone else to improve, to drop weight, to compete, whatever...what I meant was that I don't understand the mentality of cheering harder for the last finisher than for everyone else.  Many of the people who are at the absolute back of the pack probably would have been better off training more, sitting that one out and doing one later, when they're not struggling to finish a sprint in 3 hours.  Why cheer more for them than anyone else?  I love people getting into the sport, getting off the couch and living a healthier lifestyle, and I love people putting everything they have into a race.  But I guess when I see someone barely able to climb a moderate hill at mile 5 of a 56 mile bike portion of a HIM--when more than 2 hours has already passed--I wonder why they'd do something that--to me--they don't appear ready for.

Assuming it's true that people (which people though?) value 'long' over 'short and fast', I agree that it is an interesting question.  I don't know the answer -- I think we'd first need to establish who these people are who are valuing one over the other.  If we are talking about the general public, then I think the answer is probably (but I'm guessing) that the difficulty of going long is immediately apparent, whereas the difficulty of going fast is not, and the preparation required to go long is immediately apparent, whereas the preparation required to go fast is not (it is chalked up to 'genes' or whatever).

If we are talking about triathletes, then it is totally unclear to me that the premise of the question is correct.  I don't think I'm overly wowed by sheer distance (though I do enjoy going long).   I'm in utter awe of the paces that the pros do in Olympic races.  Heck, I'm in utter awe of the paces that a few locals around here do sprints.

I haven't read Friel's blog, and maybe somebody already said this or maybe he addresses it, but it is an odd question coming from someone who (co-)wrote a book entitled 'Going Long'.  (Don't get me wrong; I read the book when I first got interested in triathlon, and I enjoyed reading it.)  Here are the opening couple of sentences of that book:

"The spirit of Ironman is much more than a race, more than a simple time goal.  It is about the entire process of preparing yourself for one of the greatest endurance challenges you can face."

I don't disagree with this sentiment, but talk like that surely contributes to the 'Ironman mystique' that just might be part of why people value long over short and fast (if they do).

Oh, and just for the record, I'm not a winner.  Not yet.

Edited by Experior 2009-08-26 7:53 PM

I agree with all of this.
I think it comes down to the endurance part of... endurance sports that is the most impressive to the outside general public.

speaking of which, one of my coworkers has been calling me iron man, even though I don't even race road tris, let alone iron distance ones (although I would like to do savageman one year).  I even keep telling him I don't do those events, but it seems like to him, triathlon = ironman. 

Who cares whether the sport of triathlon is getting slower on average? It's just a sport. Not to diminish sports, because they encourage a healthy life, teach teamwork/sportsmanship, give competitive souls an outlet, etc., but all these sports and games we do, in the large scheme of things, are not that important. (I remember playing corporate volleyball on a team that lost every game and my coworkers were so upset, AS IF some piddly game meant ANYTHING!) On an individual level, doing sports can give someone a sense of accomplishment, and improve their self-image, and if that makes them a nicer/better person, then good. If winning races turns someone into an egomaniacal jerk, then they are making the world a worse place. What is there beyond that?

Well said.

I am going to comment on this thread, and, I'm afraid, brag just a bit. I am on the far left in this photo, my brother beside me in the green shirt. We both finished last in our age group at this sprint tri in New Brunswick last weekend. It was very emotional for me that we competed and finished this race as I have heart failure and cardiomyopathy and my brother has lupus, and often is quite ill. We both may die from these diseases. Despite these issues, we both trained hard and, i hope you agree, are both in good shape. He flew out from Vancouver to meet me and our third brother for this race. I have been doing these sprints for 4 years, and I get much slower each year. Before I was diagnosed I could do an Oly in 2:20. Now I do a sprint in 1:35. I know other quick guys must think I'm a wanker, and some FOP's seem to ignore me after they find out my time when I'm chatting with the guys I used to beat who are still friends. Its a funny ol' world. My brother and I are thrilled when we can get out there and race, and we train as much as we can within the limits our health allows. I don't think we should be questioning other peoples motivations, and we all deserve equal respect whether we race slow or fast, long or short. The only people who don't deserve our respect our those who don't respect others. If you see me bringing up the rear at Timberman I hope you will still give me a cheer when I finish.     

Blair          




Edited by blairrob 2009-08-27 11:33 AM