Is President Carter right? (Page 6)

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My bad.  I'm remembering something that was said during the campaign and didn't fact check it.  I should know better.

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Dang, my popcorn is all gone.  *pouts*  Guess that means I need to chime in then...

I was one of the few who voted that I think President Carter is correct -- that racism does indeed underlie some of the most virulent attacks on Obama.   Especially Joe Wilson's outburst.

Why do I think that?  As for the Joe Wilson episode, never before in the history of US presidents giving speeches to joint sessions of Congress has someone brazenly interrupted the President with an outburst of "You Lie!"  And the first time it happens?  It's a white southerner yelling at a black president.  Sure it could be coincidence, but I just don't believe that.

But I agree with an earlier poster who said that it's not provable one way or the other -- it is merely my opinion.

I remember that clearly now.  However, I think that many Senators/Representatives are under high pressure from their respective political parties to vote certain ways on most topics.  Remember the backlash that a couple of Republicans had after voting in favor of Obama's bailout and a few Democrats had after voting in favor of Bush's bank bailout.  Very few Congresspeople are willing to cross the path of their political leadership.  (I can also understand that in crossing their path they are putting in jeopardy the funding of their campaigns and hence their jobs.)

To add to what I wrote above, that is why I am pleased with the job Senator Spector does.  He is willing to go against his political party and vote the way he feels is right.  While I don't always agree with the way he votes on various topics, when he is up for re-election, he will get my vote.

On the original topic, I feel that there is racism in parts of this country and that some people don't like Obama because of his skin color.  (I grew up in rural Pennsylvania and I know plenty of people from back home that didn't vote for Obama because he was black.)  However, I don't think the majority of the people against health reform and Obama in general are racists. 

I have to disagree. If it was a white guy from California who yelled it would you think the same thing?

I also don't think for one minute that it was an emotional outburst. Everyone knew what Obama was gonna say as it was the same arguments that we have been hearing for months. I fully think that it was seizing the opportunity to stage a publicity stunt. It was politics. Wilson's twitter followers doubled overnight. I am sure that campaign contributions also had a huge jump. It's just politics... I can't see anyway to read further into it.

I believe his opponent raised $200,000 by the next morning.  An aide of Wilson's said that he raised $1 million, but no one is able to confirm that.

Edited by phillybarb 2009-09-16 7:22 PM

Dissent of the Bush policies was referred as the highest form of patriotism. Dissent of the Obama policies is the lowest for of racism......Now that is sad.

Actually, had it been a white guy from California, I would think the same thing.  The point is that it has never happened before.  No representative has ever felt he had license to just shout out an insult at the President during a speech before.  Isn't that notable?  And I believe it's because we've always had white male presidents.  Since we now have a black president, some people apparently feel the old rules no longer apply.  Incidentally, if Hillary had been elected and shouted at in this fashion, I would believe that it was sexist.

And let me be clear -- I'm *not* talking about general disagreement with the President or his policies.  I'm only talking about these exceptional displays of animosity that have never occurred before.

I think its fair to say there has rarely been a time where the political divide has been this great and where more and more shocking political behavior has become the norm. There was a thread on here a little ways back about it. Couldn't you say this is just an inevitable step in that trend?

good grief. *nobody* here has said that criticizing obama's policies makes you a racist.

go find where someone in this thread said this. go find where carter said this.

you can't. why? because he didn't. and nobody here has.

again, the original quote: "I think an overwhelming portion of the intensely demonstrated animosity toward President Barack Obama is based on the fact that he is a black man, that he's African-American."

one more time. he's not referring to all criticism of obama. he's not referring to passionate criticism of policies. he's referring to the group of people who have shown an intensely negative feeling toward barack obama as a person, and a further sub-sample of that group.

"intensely demonstrated animosity" does not equal "any and all criticism."
"toward president barack obama" does not equal "obama's policies."

the only people here lumping their own criticism of obama and his policies with that of racists are the ones decrying carter's statement based on a misinterpretation. i'm not quite sure why anyone would want to lump themselves in with racists, as it was a fairly clear distinction made by carter in that he was discussing a specific subset of those opposed to obama.

as an example, those who believe that obama is a secret muslim intent on destroying american from within, and those who believe that obama was born in kenya very likely also oppose federal spending. but the latter has nothing at all to do with the former, whereas race has very much to do with it. and those subscribing to these conspiracy theories are not insignificant proportions of the population.

this reminds me of the episode with the DHS report on rightwing extremism where many on the right were unable to distinguish between themselves and people like james von brunn, the rightwing extremist who murdered a security guard at the Holocaust Museum, or scott roeder, the rightwing extremist who murdered george tiller---the exact type of people that the DHS report quite presciently warned against.

maybe this will help:

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maybe a picture would help.jpg (54KB - 12 downloads)

Jim, I'm confused. What does a blue nipple have to do with this discussion?

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I never said it was irrelevant.  It *is* relevant, in my mind, and adds to the likelihood that it was racist.  But it's not the only ingredient. 

ETA:  And I agree with you that his outburst was probably planned ahead of time.  Much like other representatives who came to the speech armed with various props -- signs saying "what bill?", etc.


Edited by Tripolar 2009-09-16 9:26 PM

first, i didn't say that it's a benign statement. accusations of racism are hardly benign.

as for the white house's reaction, i'd say that's simple. the white house sees this as a distraction with which it would rather not get involved, and they have more important things they would rather see dominate the 24 hour news cycle. and i said earlier in the thread that i expected obama (represented here by gibbs) to distance himself from the statement when asked.

here are the pertinent exchanges from the press briefing:


now, let's look at to what extent the white house is distancing itself from what carter actually said.

one, in both exchanges, gibbs makes a point to speak specifically in reference to those criticizing obama on policy (this would be the biggest concentric circle, whereas carter was talking about the smallest). i'm sure he didn't come up with these answers off-the-cuff, so that distinction is not accidental.

in the second exchange, gibbs declines to say that he doesn't think it is race-based, and he talks about "the majority," which allows, i would say, for the possibility that there is a minority whose intensely negative feelings about obama as a person may be rooted in racism.

some might say that's parsing words, but that's exactly what press secretaries are paid to do. so i'd say there's a gap between what gibbs was saying and what was said by carter.

I see how you are Jim. Just ignore my tough question! I see right through you!

that's what carter said. i don't know what's in joe wilson's mind.

wilson was one of only 7 member of the S.C. state congress to vote against removing the confederate flag from the state house in 2000. to me, that doesn't suggest a tremendous sympathy regarding race relations. is he a racist? beats me.

if wilson did this as a political calculation, it was a horrible calculation given that his opponent, rob miller, raised $1M in 48 hours (far more than the entire 2008 election), and moved ahead of wilson 44-43 in the latest poll, whereas before wilson was considered a safe seat in a low-profile race.

blue nipples have as much to do with it as a monkey riding a dog at the rodeo. which is to say, EVERYTHING.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsHgpS2lug8

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Edited by PennState 2009-09-17 5:06 AM